WCQF | (2) San Antonio Spurs vs Memphis Grizzlies (7) | SAS 4-2

[DROB27]

Nash admitted years ago that he flopped on that play and tried to sell the call.

Horry was given a two-game suspension for that play. Meanwhile, in the Warriors/Jazz series that year, Baron Davis didn't get suspended at all for this play:

Watch on YouTube

As far as the Amar'e/Diaw situation is concerned, the NBA's rulebook is crystal clear on what happens when players leave their bench during an altercation. According to Rule No. 12, Section VII, Item C:



http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12.html?nav=ArticleList

Amar'e and Diaw violated the rule and had to face the consequences. Fans always complain about "star treatment," but then when a star (which Amar'e was at that point in his career) is held to the letter of the rules like any other player would be, fans start complaining about that too. Patrick Ewing was suspended for the same thing in Game 5 against Miami in '97, but people still act like Amar'e and Diaw's suspensions were totally unprecedented.

I'll never understand why people think that series was rigged for the Spurs. If that was the case, why would the refs keep ignoring Kurt Thomas' illegal screens and rewarding Raja Bell and Barbosa's flops? Why would they rig it for the "boring" Spurs instead of the high-octane Suns?

This post deserves 100 +1's.

Nash absolutely flopped on the play and like you said, admitted to it. At no point in that series did the Suns have the series lead and with a well rested Amare/Diaw they got absolutely clobbered in Game 6. Horry getting two games for that was an absolute joke, but of course Nash milked it for all it was worth.

I understand Suns fans being frustrated at those turn of events, but if Nash didn't go flying into the announcer's table I don't think Amare/Diaw would've stepped onto the court. Horry's play was unnecessary, but the Suns were always playing catch up in that series.

I like the Spurs. I really do. But the Spurs were playing catch up in that series, and its been documented that the league didnt like the way Suns owner Robert Sarver treated refs in general. The league plays favorites depending on the circumstances, this is not exclusive to the Spurs or any team in particular. I've always though the Suns should've won in 2007, just as the Spurs should've won in 2013.

Catch up? Against the suns in 2007? The spurs never trailed that series

[Cartuse]

I'm a Spurs fan, and it was pretty obvious to me that the refs had an agenda towards the end of the game. Painfully obvious. Anyone that has played basketball knows that not getting calls and refs not allowing you to play defense really messes up your head and your game. You can't just "get over it" because you have no idea how to do it.
This was an embarrasing win, and having been on the wrong end of games like this, I empathize with Griz fans and hope their team delivers great performances in the next games.

[MartinToVaught]

How were the Spurs "playing catch-up" in a series they never trailed? The Suns were the ones "playing catch-up" from the moment they lost Game 1 on their home court. Before you bring up the cut that Nash got on his nose, they were already losing when that happened and the Suns even clawed to within two while Nash was sidelined. I'd say the Spurs' dominance on the boards and the Suns' inability to contain Parker had a greater influence on the outcome.

[Chinook]

Agreed with a couple of things: Khawi is the best on either team and Memphis cant guard him properly.

You admit this, but you ignore the massive implications it has that Memphis has nothing but passable-to-horrible defenders on the perimeter without Allen.

Scoring those 31 FT made the whole difference. Khawi did not deserve those 19 FTA.

He didn't deserve every call he got, and he deserved some calls he didn't get. That may or may not cancel out, but either way, it's not a huge gap.

For instance, check an example at 2:34 in the 4th. Should have a jump-ball with Marc Gasol. Instead, he got the 2FTA and Gasol got more pissed off.

I'm not as sure about that one as you are. I think if it was a legit block it was like the Lee block on Harden earlier in the year that set up Kawhi's well-known chase-down. Lee blocked the ball, then his hand slid on Harden's forearm. Look at the 7:12 mark of this vid (actually pause it).

Watch on YouTube

That's clear contact to the arms from a guy who's not going straight up. At best, it's a 50-50 call. Don't let Marc freaking out fool you.

when that happens over and over and you dont get those calls on the other side of the court, players tend to get nervious and anxious. That affects every player and every team on earth.

Marc didn't play sound D there. If he thinks he should be able to go all willy-nilly and get blocks, that's on him. But no one reasonable should expect Selden, JaMychal, Ennis and Harrison to have the same defensive success as Green and Leonard. It wasn't the same contact on both sides, despite the protest. Memphis' fouls were a lot of brainfarts combined with a number of instances where they were just too small or slow to actually check their men.

What Fiz said regarding: More game in the paint means more Free Throw Attempts. You cant argue with that.

Yes you can. Z-Bo doesn't dominate the Spurs. He hasn't in years. I don't care how "rugged" he is. A dude like Selden is going to drive and get blocked. Gasol is going to get triple-teamed in the paint where as a guy like Aldridge won't. The Spurs also didn't have as many stupid fouls where they lost position and ran into their man from the side trying to make up like Memphis did. Simply being in the paint isn't going to warrant calls when you lack offensive talent and play a great D that knows you inside and out.

Now I expect a Game three better officiated but still, Spurs are a super elite team that if they have a regular night, they might get the 3-0 regardless how good we play or how poor/good officiated it is.

The refs won't officiate "fairly". They will bias Memphis or not change at all. The need for refs to make things "even" causes some of the worst rulings in sports. The Spurs and Grizz shouldn't have anything similar in FTA disparity, but I expect to see it now.

[JonFromVA]

Overcoming the other team as well as the refs is traditionally part of the game for lower seeds. It's important not to let complaining about the refs become a crutch for the players. They need to either adjust to how the game is being called, or try to change how the game is being called.

[bmurph128]

Props to the Spurs fans admitting that they may have gotten the benefit of the officiating in this game.

Spurs were always going to win the series though.

[jonjames]

Outside of that one year in 2011 the spurs just own the grizzlies.

[Clyde Frazier]

Read on Twitter

I'm not even a star trek fan

[Ballings7]

Nash admitted years ago that he flopped on that play and tried to sell the call.

Horry was given a two-game suspension for that play. Meanwhile, in the Warriors/Jazz series that year, Baron Davis didn't get suspended at all for this play:

Watch on YouTube

As far as the Amar'e/Diaw situation is concerned, the NBA's rulebook is crystal clear on what happens when players leave their bench during an altercation. According to Rule No. 12, Section VII, Item C:



http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12.html?nav=ArticleList

Amar'e and Diaw violated the rule and had to face the consequences. Fans always complain about "star treatment," but then when a star (which Amar'e was at that point in his career) is held to the letter of the rules like any other player would be, fans start complaining about that too. Patrick Ewing was suspended for the same thing in Game 5 against Miami in '97, but people still act like Amar'e and Diaw's suspensions were totally unprecedented.

I'll never understand why people think that series was rigged for the Spurs. If that was the case, why would the refs keep ignoring Kurt Thomas' illegal screens and rewarding Raja Bell and Barbosa's flops? Why would they rig it for the "boring" Spurs instead of the high-octane Suns?

This post deserves 100 +1's.

Nash absolutely flopped on the play and like you said, admitted to it. At no point in that series did the Suns have the series lead and with a well rested Amare/Diaw they got absolutely clobbered in Game 6. Horry getting two games for that was an absolute joke, but of course Nash milked it for all it was worth.

I understand Suns fans being frustrated at those turn of events, but if Nash didn't go flying into the announcer's table I don't think Amare/Diaw would've stepped onto the court. Horry's play was unnecessary, but the Suns were always playing catch up in that series.

I like the Spurs. I really do. But the Spurs were playing catch up in that series, and its been documented that the league didnt like the way Suns owner Robert Sarver treated refs in general. The league plays favorites depending on the circumstances, this is not exclusive to the Spurs or any team in particular. I've always though the Suns should've won in 2007, just as the Spurs should've won in 2013.

That hipcheck game was Game 4. Spurs were up 2-1 before blowing like a 15 or 16-digit lead in the 4th, and then went on to win G5 and G6. The Suns didn't win because they were balanced enough as a team, over-relied on Nash, and Amare couldn't score on his own without facing up and wasn't that creative there.

Also we really should not overlook the Utah Jazz who owned Phoenix in the regular season and would of been a bad match up for Phoenix with their size and post play, Deron/Boozer/Okur/young, scrappy Millsap/AK47. Jazz were elite that year. Utah also wasn't a bad defensive team when they tried.

[MartinToVaught]

I almost forgot to mention - James Posey only got suspended for one game the year before for his check on Kirk Hinrich:

Watch on YouTube

Again, Horry got two games off for a similar play, albeit one that Nash embellished. It's hard to argue that the Spurs received favorable treatment.

[JonFromVA]

The NBA has always protected the Spurs because they think the organization is good for the image of the league. Even when Robert Horry was body slamming Steve Nash, the NBA made sure to watch out for the Spurs and suspend several Suns players as well.

Nash admitted years ago that he flopped on that play and tried to sell the call.

*snip*

Great post!

I never understood the belly-aching at the time from the media or even what still goes on years later.

If the Suns were the better team, then why didn't they take care of their business in game #1 when they lost to the Spurs at home, or in game #6 when they were back to full strength?

After what happened at the Palace Brawl the leave the bench rule was well established. There's just no excuse, and if Nash embellishing the fall after the hip-check led to his teammates getting off the bench? Now, that's just poetic justice.

Great teams find a way to overcome adversity. The Suns simply weren't there.

The Spurs have built up a reputation over the years of contesting shots without committing fouls. They were 7th best at not committing PF's this season. Memphis, otoh, was 29th this season. This is important groundwork and it's a little late for Fisdale to try to do something about it.

[phanman]

Catch up? Against the suns in 2007? The spurs never trailed that series

To be fair the Suns still pulled out the win in G4, and only lost G5 by 3 points despite losing their top scorer and realistically any front court options. They played 6 guys in that game, with James friggin Jones being the 6th man to Nash/Bell/Barbosa/Marion/Thomas. It isn't a stretch to say they pull out that G5 @ Home with all personnel and force a G7 @ Home. That said this is all revisionist history.

[Ballings7]

Catch up? Against the suns in 2007? The spurs never trailed that series

To be fair the Suns still pulled out the win in G4, and only lost G5 by 3 points despite losing their top scorer and realistically any front court options. They played 6 guys in that game, with James friggin Jones being the 6th man to Nash/Bell/Barbosa/Marion/Thomas. It isn't a stretch to say they pull out that G5 @ Home with all personnel and force a G7 @ Home. That said this is all revisionist history.

But Game 6...

Phoenix that year was very good, but the Spurs were just more well-rounded when it came down to Xs and Os and smarts. And deeper.

[Grizfan6969]

Agreed with a couple of things: Khawi is the best on either team and Memphis cant guard him properly.

You admit this, but you ignore the massive implications it has that Memphis has nothing but passable-to-horrible defenders on the perimeter without Allen.

Scoring those 31 FT made the whole difference. Khawi did not deserve those 19 FTA.

He didn't deserve every call he got, and he deserved some calls he didn't get. That may or may not cancel out, but either way, it's not a huge gap.

For instance, check an example at 2:34 in the 4th. Should have a jump-ball with Marc Gasol. Instead, he got the 2FTA and Gasol got more pissed off.

I'm not as sure about that one as you are. I think if it was a legit block it was like the Lee block on Harden earlier in the year that set up Kawhi's well-known chase-down. Lee blocked the ball, then his hand slid on Harden's forearm. Look at the 7:12 mark of this vid (actually pause it).

Watch on YouTube

That's clear contact to the arms from a guy who's not going straight up. At best, it's a 50-50 call. Don't let Marc freaking out fool you.

when that happens over and over and you dont get those calls on the other side of the court, players tend to get nervious and anxious. That affects every player and every team on earth.

Marc didn't play sound D there. If he thinks he should be able to go all willy-nilly and get blocks, that's on him. But no one reasonable should expect Selden, JaMychal, Ennis and Harrison to have the same defensive success as Green and Leonard. It wasn't the same contact on both sides, despite the protest. Memphis' fouls were a lot of brainfarts combined with a number of instances where they were just too small or slow to actually check their men.

What Fiz said regarding: More game in the paint means more Free Throw Attempts. You cant argue with that.

Yes you can. Z-Bo doesn't dominate the Spurs. He hasn't in years. I don't care how "rugged" he is. A dude like Selden is going to drive and get blocked. Gasol is going to get triple-teamed in the paint where as a guy like Aldridge won't. The Spurs also didn't have as many stupid fouls where they lost position and ran into their man from the side trying to make up like Memphis did. Simply being in the paint isn't going to warrant calls when you lack offensive talent and play a great D that knows you inside and out.

Now I expect a Game three better officiated but still, Spurs are a super elite team that if they have a regular night, they might get the 3-0 regardless how good we play or how poor/good officiated it is.

The refs won't officiate "fairly". They will bias Memphis or not change at all. The need for refs to make things "even" causes some of the worst rulings in sports. The Spurs and Grizz shouldn't have anything similar in FTA disparity, but I expect to see it now.

Regardless of your isolated examples, if you cannot acknowledge that more shot attempts in the paint should translate to more FT attempts then I don't know what can be presented to you to alter your stance on the matter, especially when you consider the blatant discrepancy from one team to another.

Additionally, it's quite disturbing that well more than 50% of the posts that I have read from Spurs fans have acknowledged that the Grizzlies got bent over by the refs, yet you and a couple others say no way, no how.

Trying to determine who has objectivity here. Maybe Fiz actually has a point in referencing numbers.

Just in a vacuum, taking numbers out of the equation, anyone who watches that 4th quarter from a distance, without any dog in the fight, that DOESN'T feel as if the Grizzlies got the short end of the stick from the officials, has something wrong with them.

Hilarious that the vast majority of this forum (who are not Grizzlies or Spurs fans) feel the way that I do. Go figure.

[Fico92]

The only part I don't understand about the rant is this...

"That was very unprofessional."

*Proceeds to give extremely unprofessional interview*

[HellDiver007]

if you cannot acknowledge that more shot attempts in the paint should translate to more FT attempts

That seems a rather oversimplified conclusion. It completely ignores the discipline of the opposing defense along with the kind of the shots being taken. There's a reason why Grizz gave up 2nd most FT's this year, where as the Spurs fared much better on that end.

That means Memphis spent the whole season sending their opponents to the line more than they got there, which makes Fizdale’s complaint a bit harder to take at face value. The disparity with the Spurs may not have been because of officiating in a single game, but more likely because the Grizzlies’ inside shots often rely on pivot moves or quick stops instead of the bruising drives that are rewarded with free throws, and because of their season-long penchant for fouling shooters.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-grizzlies-foul-so-damn-much/?addata=espn:clubhouse


Fizdale is blaming the refs for a problem that plagued Grizz during the entire reg season.

[Chinook]

Regardless of your isolated examples,

Of which you have no counter examples.

if you cannot acknowledge that more shot attempts in the paint should translate to more FT attempts then I don't know what can be presented to you to alter your stance on the matter, especially when you consider the blatant discrepancy from one team to another.

There's a correlation between FGA in the paint and FTA, but not a causation. You are completely ignoring that the Spurs are more than capable of guarding Memphis while they don't have a prayer of legitimately guarding Kawhi. That makes a difference.

Additionally, it's quite disturbing that well more than 50% of the posts that I have read from Spurs fans have acknowledged that the Grizzlies got bent over by the refs, yet you and a couple others say no way, no how.

This is a logical fallacy. I don't care who is on what side of this argument. I'm not here to speak for Spurs fan. But I will say that now that we're removed from this game a bit more, a good deal of analysis is coming out that is saying the call disparity was justified.

Trying to determine who has objectivity here. Maybe Fiz actually has a point in referencing numbers.

He doesn't. Dude made a really lazy argument. And he complained about everything, which seemed to make it hard for him to know the difference.

Just in a vacuum, taking numbers out of the equation, anyone who watches that 4th quarter from a distance, without any dog in the fight, that DOESN'T feel as if the Grizzlies got the short end of the stick from the officials, has something wrong with them.

This is getting really silly. How many times are you going to say "If you don't agree with me you're stupid/delusional/worse" in place of actual points?

Hilarious that the vast majority of this forum (who are not Grizzlies or Spurs fans) feel the way that I do. Go figure.

Same logical fallacy over and over. Again, I blame Reggie Miller. Dude's one of the worst analysts out there.

[tbdog]

I almost forgot to mention - James Posey only got suspended for one game the year before for his check on Kirk Hinrich:

Watch on YouTube

Again, Horry got two games off for a similar play, albeit one that Nash embellished. It's hard to argue that the Spurs received favorable treatment.

What about the Raja Bell takedown on Kobe? Wasn't that the year after. Only one game suspension.

[JonFromVA]

Hilarious that the vast majority of this forum (who are not Grizzlies or Spurs fans) feel the way that I do. Go figure.

How many non-Spurs/Griz fans watched the game?

If the Griz got treated unfairly in a way that goes way beyond the typical ref bias shown to a low-seed that commits a lot of fouls facing a top-seed that does not commit a lot of fouls, there should be ample irrefutable evidence.

Fizzdale sure didn't offer it. What's the case?

[Grizfan6969]

I'm not going to re-watch the game and cite a whole bunch of examples of what I know my eyes witnessed Monday Night, but you're more than welcome to read what I think was a very fair piece by SB Nation:

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/4/18/15339448/david-fizdale-fouls-referees-no-call-grizzlies-vs-spurs