WCQF | (3) Houston Rockets vs Oklahoma City Thunder (6) | HOU 2-1

[BallerTalk]

I can't say Harden is "better with talent" until he matches Westbrook's playoff resume. When Westbrook had Durant, they made finals and 3 WCF. Harden needs to prove himself beyond the 1st round.

Sorry but this comment was so egregious that it just demanded my attention.
Here are the facts.

Durant:
1 NBA Finals
4 WCF
3 Missed Playoffs

Westbrook:
1 NBA Finals
4 WCF
2 Missed Playoffs

Harden:
1 NBA Finals
3 WCF*
0 Missed Playoffs

*Add that Harden is the only one of the 3 to reach the conference finals with no other All-Star on his team.

To suggest that Westbrook has a better playoff resume than Harden is dubious at best and that's before we get into the fact that Westbrook has spent the entirety of his playoff career (until now) as the secondary star to a top 10 player.

LOL - 3 of the 4 appearances (2 WCF & 1 Finals) you have listed for Harden were as a non-starter non-all star literally backing up Westbrook.

I regret posting my original post, because I resorted to the same form of argumentation that I condemn you guys for, where you can't be a great player if you don't play on a great team, but I found your quoted part comical.

You made a questionable comment. I respond with the facts.
Now, instead of accepting the correction and moving on, you come back with more shell game chicanery.

You do realize that half of Westbrook and Durant's conference final appearances and their ONLY Finals appearance came while teamed with Harden, right?

Or are you seriously trying to argue that Harden wasn't a star on that team and an integral part of their success?

Well here are some more facts seem to disagree with your position:
The Thunder were a lottery team with Durant and Westbrook before Harden arrived.
In their first year with Harden they went from lottery to a 50 win team.
In their 2nd season with Harden they went to the WC Finals.
In their 3 year together harden won the Sixth Man of the Year Award and help lead the Thunder to the NBA Finals.
Harden was traded the following summer and the Thunder haven't made it that far since.

Sorry but your efforts to malign Harden's playoff record and role on the Thunder, especially in comparison to Westbrook, are just getting more ridiculous.
Time to move on.

[donnieme]

He was clearly good, and clearly too big for his role, but he wasn't "carrying" the Thunder by any stretch. He was a complimentary player. He didn't start, wasn't even an all-star, etc.

He wasn't even too big for his role. He fit and complimented the others well. No one in 2012 ever thought fit was an issue with the team. But yes he didn't carry them and neither did Westbrook. Westbrook was also better at the time. The OKC FO seemed low on him after the finals and thought they could move forward with Durant+Westbrook. I guess Steven Adams is the 'upgrade' in fit that made that trade worth it

Harden would have never become the player he is now playing behind Westbrook and Durant. He was clearly too big for his 6th man role. Don't be foolish. I made a thread earlier this year asking whether Westbrook and Harden could have co-existed together, and the overwhelming response was absolutely not. OKC didn't handle the Harden situation well, but they also had their best season in franchise history the season after he left, and were 1st tier contenders every healthy season, so the trade isn't nearly as heartbreaking as Durant's departure.

I'm guessing like you, many of the voters didn't actually see them together because when we did in 2012, no one thought they'd never win together. You're telling me that a team, tipped to be a dynasty that had already gotten to the finals would have gotten worse because....wait fot it...THEIR PLAYERS GOT BETTER. People overthink this. IMO There's a certain bracket of talent whom when you have enough of you're guaranteed to win regardless of fit. Guys like Wade, Lebron are in that category and so are Harden, Durant, Westbrook

He would not have averaged MVP numbers as a 3rd option but if you're OKC management trying to win a title, why do you care about that? That's like Cavs crying that Love doesn't average 26/13 or Warriors trading Klay for scraps because he could average 27ppg elsewhere. Not a good reason

[Mazter]

It definitely swung the momentum. You're kidding yourself if you think it didnt. Going into the 4th down 12 is alot different than going in down 3. Harden also got into a rhythm.

Well, isnt the real reason of that momentum then that Harden got into a rhythm, not that Westbrook sat down?
Harden went 3-for-3 during that Westbrook break, all shots well contested by Roberson. Would Westbrook somehow have stopped those plays?

[Thundershock88]

It definitely swung the momentum. You're kidding yourself if you think it didnt. Going into the 4th down 12 is alot different than going in down 3. Harden also got into a rhythm.

Well, isnt the real reason of that momentum then that Harden got into a rhythm, not that Westbrook sat down?
Harden went 3-for-3 during that Westbrook break, all shots well contested by Roberson. Would Westbrook somehow have stopped those plays?

Would have probably scored during that stretch. Rockets went on a 9-0 run. Who did the Thunder have on the floor that could actually score? Donovan set them up for failure there and I definitely felt the game slipping away at that point. It was an idiotic rotation.

[Patches Perry]

I guess I just didn't understand the significance of the comparison of Wesbrooks playoff successes, but then crediting the finals appearance for Westbrook and not Harden.

I agree with you, as I posted a few posts ago. I realized after I posted it how bad of an argument it was, and totally against the arguments I usually make. Team accomplishments are not player accomplishments.

Harden was not an all-star on those Thunder teams, but the fact that Westbrook has been further in the playoffs as an all-star than Harden is directly related to the fact that he has had better teammates in the past. The fact that Harden will get further in the playoffs this year is for the same reason.

[red96]

Wow! Espn is at it again. They're blaming the loss on the Rockets mini comeback on the few minutes Westbrook sat at the end of the 3rd. Complete BS. The Thunder's lead varied between 3-12 points, from the end of the 1st all the way to the 3rd before Westbrook sat down. Their lead just went back down to 3 again while Westbrook was sitting. The Thunder got the lead back up to 8(the type of lead they had all game long) at 11:31 in the 4th, so you can't blame the loss on that brief moment in the 3rd. No Espn, the Thunder lost their lead and the game with Westbrook playing.

It definitely swung the momentum. You're kidding yourself if you think it didnt. Going into the 4th down 12 is alot different than going in down 3. Harden also got into a rhythm.

What happened late in the 3rd is the same thing that happened since the 2nd quarter. The Rockets get the lead down to a possession or two, and than the Thunder stretch it back out a bit. 43-40 and then the Thunder get's it back to 55-44. The Rockets get it to 57-51 and then the Thunder stretch it back to a 10 point lead 61-51.
Down to 68-62 then up to 75-64. 79-74 then back up to 86-74. Momentum shifted constantly, not just when Westbrook sat.

Beginning of the 4th the score was 89-86 then back up to 94-86. You can't just say the Thunder would've definitely kept a 12 point lead by the end of the 3rd if Westbrook had stayed in. The Rockets made plenty of runs with him playing all game long. The biggest momentum swing was when Westbrook and co missed a few shots in a row, making the game close, and then Westbrook decided to only play with Spalding. Oh, and Harden getting hot, which has nothing to do with Westbrook.

[Patches Perry]

He wasn't even too big for his role. He fit and complimented the others well. No one in 2012 ever thought fit was an issue with the team. But yes he didn't carry them and neither did Westbrook. Westbrook was also better at the time. The OKC FO seemed low on him after the finals and thought they could move forward with Durant+Westbrook. I guess Steven Adams is the 'upgrade' in fit that made that trade worth it

Harden would have never become the player he is now playing behind Westbrook and Durant. He was clearly too big for his 6th man role. Don't be foolish. I made a thread earlier this year asking whether Westbrook and Harden could have co-existed together, and the overwhelming response was absolutely not. OKC didn't handle the Harden situation well, but they also had their best season in franchise history the season after he left, and were 1st tier contenders every healthy season, so the trade isn't nearly as heartbreaking as Durant's departure.

I'm guessing like you, many of the voters didn't actually see them together because when we did in 2012, no one thought they'd never win together. You're telling me that a team, tipped to be a dynasty that had already gotten to the finals would have gotten worse because....wait fot it...THEIR PLAYERS GOT BETTER. People overthink this. IMO There's a certain bracket of talent whom when you have enough of you're guaranteed to win regardless of fit. Guys like Wade, Lebron are in that category and so are Harden, Durant, Westbrook

He would not have averaged MVP numbers as a 3rd option but if you're OKC management trying to win a title, why do you care about that? That's like Cavs crying that Love doesn't average 26/13 or Warriors trading Klay for scraps because he could average 27ppg elsewhere. Not a good reason

It's not about numbers, but about diverse abilities. Harden and Westbrook overlap so much, and Durant also to a lesser extent. All three of them playing together would be demanding full market value (Max) while not getting full market productivity. This is why Golden State is so good, because Green affects the game in so many ways other than scoring, and Curry/Klay are dominant off the ball as well as on the ball. Westbrook and Harden are both bad off the ball, and all three of Durant/Westbrook/Harden need the ball to be effective. It's one thing if you have them on rookie contracts where cap is not an issue. It's another if you're paying all 3 the max, then leaving your front court completely vulnerable.

It's the same concept as putting Chris Paul, John Wall and Kyle Lowry together on the floor. All great players, all unselfish, but their abilities overlap so much that if you are paying all 3 the max, you are seriously disadvantaging your team in other areas.

[ThatBoyNick]

It looked like Westbrook really shot his self in the foot playing 10 minutes in the 3rd and the whole 4th quarter straight (Or B.Donovan did). He was completely gassed the last 5 minutes of the game and that's why none of his shots were falling.

[Patches Perry]

Sorry but your efforts to malign Harden's playoff record

This is true. A players playoff record is wholly dependent on the team he plays on and players he plays with. Westbrook wouldn't have the deep playoff runs without Durant (and to a lesser extent Harden pre-2012). It was a bad argument on my part.

If I call it a bad argument when Houston fans say Harden is MVP because his team is better, then I have to hold myself accountable the same way and call it a bad argument when I use the same argument in Westbrook's favor.

[gmoney411]

It definitely swung the momentum. You're kidding yourself if you think it didnt. Going into the 4th down 12 is alot different than going in down 3. Harden also got into a rhythm.

Well, isnt the real reason of that momentum then that Harden got into a rhythm, not that Westbrook sat down?
Harden went 3-for-3 during that Westbrook break, all shots well contested by Roberson. Would Westbrook somehow have stopped those plays?

Would have probably scored during that stretch. Rockets went on a 9-0 run. Who did the Thunder have on the floor that could actually score? Donovan set them up for failure there and I definitely felt the game slipping away at that point. It was an idiotic rotation.

They might have scored more. Russ had already went into heat check mode and his last two misses is probably one of the main reasons Donovan sat him. The Thunder got a 3 in 1 of the last 4 possessions so it's not like they did nothing. The run was more of a case of Harden getting hot at the end of the quarter. Maybe Russ gets them an extra 2 on one of those other 3 possessions or maybe he keeps jacking like he did in the 4th and they go 0-4.

[MartinToVaught]

Because Westbrook just broke all time high in USG%, and his selfish ball-hogging has hit a new high this year

This argument has already been addressed ITT. Westbrook's USG% was abnormally high this year, but he was tied with John Wall and the supposedly "unselfish" James Harden in time of possession. He's not any more or less of a ballhog than Harden or Wall are, yet he's the only one getting criticized for it even though Harden and Wall are both playing on much better teams.

Ironically, "ballhog" Westbrook and "unselfish" Harden both averaged roughly 1.8 passes per minute in the regular season. Harden averaged about 5 more passes per game than Westbrook, but Westbrook played about 2 fewer minutes per game than Harden did. If Westbrook played the same minutes as Harden, the gap between them would be about two passes per game. Two! Apparently, two passes per game is the difference between "unselfish MVP" and "selfish chucker who holds his team back."

Even more ironically, Westbrook has averaged 10 more passes per game than Harden in the playoffs so far. Who's the ballhog again?

Whatever Westbrook has done in the past, it's not even close in terms of the degree to which he is icing out his teammates currently.

He's "icing them out" so much that many of them have seen increases and even career highs in the number of shots they're taking per game.

Also, why would you use career averages which includes their rookie and sophomore years as a point of comparison? That was a dirty move, but nice try tho.

No, a "dirty move" is you making false claims that are easily debunked just by spending a few minutes on BasketballReference as if nobody's going to notice.

Using career averages isn't a perfect metric for the reason you mentioned, but it's still much fairer than judging players solely on a small sample size in a brand new team/system that they joined midseason.

The fact is, most of those players were on an upward career trajectory in terms of scoring volume and efficiency, and then they all plateaued or fell off since joining this version of Westbrook. Explain that.

Adams is still on an upward trajectory in both of those categories.

Gibson's 11.6 PPG with the Bulls and 9.0 PPG with the Thunder this year were both better than his 8.6 PPG last year. His .549 TS% with the Bulls this season - before playing with Westbrook - was already a step back from his .556 TS% last season.

Oladipo's scoring was on a downward trajectory before coming to OKC - he averaged 16 PPG last year in Orlando compared to 17.9 the year before.

McDermott's .555 TS% with the Bulls this season - before playing with Westbrook - was already a downgrade from his .561 TS% last season. Again, like with Gibson, Westbrook can hardly be blamed for a player that was already shooting less efficiently without him.

Kanter's PPG took a hit last season, going from 15.5 PPG in 2014-15 to 12.7 in 2015-16. This year, it zoomed back up to 14.3, which was his second-highest scoring season ever.

You have yet to name a single player who's regressed in both of those categories as a direct result of playing with Westbrook. All of those players were either already regressing before they played with Westbrook or improved in one or both of those categories.

[Scizzup]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

[Thundershock88]

Well, isnt the real reason of that momentum then that Harden got into a rhythm, not that Westbrook sat down?
Harden went 3-for-3 during that Westbrook break, all shots well contested by Roberson. Would Westbrook somehow have stopped those plays?

Would have probably scored during that stretch. Rockets went on a 9-0 run. Who did the Thunder have on the floor that could actually score? Donovan set them up for failure there and I definitely felt the game slipping away at that point. It was an idiotic rotation.

They might have scored more. Russ had already went into heat check mode and his last two misses is probably one of the main reasons Donovan sat him. The Thunder got a 3 in 1 of the last 4 possessions so it's not like they did nothing. The run was more of a case of Harden getting hot at the end of the quarter. Maybe Russ gets them an extra 2 on of those other 3 possessions or maybe he keeps jacking like he did in the 4th and they go 0-4.

It's all hypothetical, but that lineup was baffling. Christon, Dipo, Singler, Roberson, Grant.

[gmoney411]

Would have probably scored during that stretch. Rockets went on a 9-0 run. Who did the Thunder have on the floor that could actually score? Donovan set them up for failure there and I definitely felt the game slipping away at that point. It was an idiotic rotation.

They might have scored more. Russ had already went into heat check mode and his last two misses is probably one of the main reasons Donovan sat him. The Thunder got a 3 in 1 of the last 4 possessions so it's not like they did nothing. The run was more of a case of Harden getting hot at the end of the quarter. Maybe Russ gets them an extra 2 on of those other 3 possessions or maybe he keeps jacking like he did in the 4th and they go 0-4.

It's all hypothetical, but that lineup was baffling. Christon, Dipo, Singler, Roberson, Grant.

Definitely a head scratching lineup but I'm not really sure what any lineup does in that situation. Harden just made shots. Roberson was still out there holding him and that's what matters on that end. On the offensive side for the Thunder I really think we are only debating 2-3 points if that.

[donnieme]

Harden would have never become the player he is now playing behind Westbrook and Durant. He was clearly too big for his 6th man role. Don't be foolish. I made a thread earlier this year asking whether Westbrook and Harden could have co-existed together, and the overwhelming response was absolutely not. OKC didn't handle the Harden situation well, but they also had their best season in franchise history the season after he left, and were 1st tier contenders every healthy season, so the trade isn't nearly as heartbreaking as Durant's departure.

I'm guessing like you, many of the voters didn't actually see them together because when we did in 2012, no one thought they'd never win together. You're telling me that a team, tipped to be a dynasty that had already gotten to the finals would have gotten worse because....wait fot it...THEIR PLAYERS GOT BETTER. People overthink this. IMO There's a certain bracket of talent whom when you have enough of you're guaranteed to win regardless of fit. Guys like Wade, Lebron are in that category and so are Harden, Durant, Westbrook

He would not have averaged MVP numbers as a 3rd option but if you're OKC management trying to win a title, why do you care about that? That's like Cavs crying that Love doesn't average 26/13 or Warriors trading Klay for scraps because he could average 27ppg elsewhere. Not a good reason

It's not about numbers, but about diverse abilities. Harden and Westbrook overlap so much, and Durant also to a lesser extent. All three of them playing together would be demanding full market value (Max) while not getting full market productivity. This is why Golden State is so good, because Green affects the game in so many ways other than scoring, and Curry/Klay are dominant off the ball as well as on the ball. Westbrook and Harden are both bad off the ball, and all three of Durant/Westbrook/Harden need the ball to be effective. It's one thing if you have them on rookie contracts where cap is not an issue. It's another if you're paying all 3 the max, then leaving your front court completely vulnerable.

It's the same concept as putting Chris Paul, John Wall and Kyle Lowry together on the floor. All great players, all unselfish, but their abilities overlap so much that if you are paying all 3 the max, you are seriously disadvantaging your team in other areas.

Quite the reach but would rather not derail the thread any further. Will let it end there

[K_chile22]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

That felt like OKCs best shot, imo. Played damn near perfect for 2 and a half quarters while the Rockets tripped over themselves during that entire span. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Rockets take game 3, and get the 4-1 gentlemans sweep

[K_chile22]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

That felt like OKCs best shot, imo. Played damn near perfect for 2 and a half quarters while the Rockets tripped over themselves during that entire span. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Rockets take game 3, and get the 4-1 gentlemans sweep


Can't wait for the one Harden clunker game where everyone comes out to say Harden sucks in the playoffs tho

[Mazter]

Would have probably scored during that stretch. Rockets went on a 9-0 run. Who did the Thunder have on the floor that could actually score? Donovan set them up for failure there and I definitely felt the game slipping away at that point. It was an idiotic rotation.

Well, the "rest Westbrook at the end of the third quarter" has been working all year long, so dont really know what else he should have done. Westbrook was already playing more than he is used to, so keeping him in for those 2 minutes would have caused him sitting at the beginning of the fourth anyways. And you could see that he lacked the energy in the 4th.

[Scizzup]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

That felt like OKCs best shot, imo. Played damn near perfect for 2 and a half quarters while the Rockets tripped over themselves during that entire span. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Rockets take game 3, and get the 4-1 gentlemans sweep


Can't wait for the one Harden clunker game where everyone comes out to say Harden sucks in the playoffs tho

best chance to steal it on the road, probably. But playing at the Peake is a lot different and they have the crowd energy to feed off. Also the last game will be in Russ head and he be a lot smarter for one game before probably resorting to Russ.

[Tritodian]

Because Westbrook just broke all time high in USG%, and his selfish ball-hogging has hit a new high this year

This argument has already been addressed ITT. Westbrook's USG% was abnormally high this year, but he was tied with John Wall and the supposedly "unselfish" James Harden in time of possession. He's not any more or less of a ballhog than Harden or Wall are, yet he's the only one getting criticized for it even though Harden and Wall are both playing on much better teams.

Ironically, "ballhog" Westbrook and "unselfish" Harden both averaged roughly 1.8 passes per minute in the regular season. Harden averaged about 5 more passes per game than Westbrook, but Westbrook played about 2 fewer minutes per game than Harden did. If Westbrook played the same minutes as Harden, the gap between them would be about two passes per game. Two! Apparently, two passes per game is the difference between "unselfish MVP" and "selfish chucker who holds his team back."

Even more ironically, Westbrook has averaged 10 more passes per game than Harden in the playoffs so far. Who's the ballhog again?

so any reference with regard to the past is moot.

"It doesn't fit my agenda, therefore it doesn't count."

Whatever Westbrook has done in the past, it's not even close in terms of the degree to which he is icing out his teammates currently.

He's "icing them out" so much that many of them have seen increases and even career highs in the number of shots they're taking per game.

Also, why would you use career averages which includes their rookie and sophomore years as a point of comparison? That was a dirty move, but nice try tho.

No, a "dirty move" is you making false claims that are easily debunked just by spending a few minutes on BasketballReference as if nobody's going to notice.

Using career averages isn't a perfect metric for the reason you mentioned, but it's still much fairer than judging players solely on a small sample size in a brand new team/system that they joined midseason.

The fact is, most of those players were on an upward career trajectory in terms of scoring volume and efficiency, and then they all plateaued or fell off since joining this version of Westbrook. Explain that.

Adams is still on an upward trajectory in both of those categories.

Gibson's 11.6 PPG with the Bulls and 9.0 PPG with the Thunder this year were both better than his 8.6 PPG last year. His .549 TS% with the Bulls this season - before playing with Westbrook - was already a step back from his .556 TS% last season.

Oladipo's scoring was on a downward trajectory before coming to OKC - he averaged 16 PPG last year in Orlando compared to 17.9 the year before.

McDermott's .555 TS% with the Bulls this season - before playing with Westbrook - was already a downgrade from his .561 TS% last season. Again, like with Gibson, Westbrook can hardly be blamed for a player that was already shooting less efficiently without him.

Kanter's PPG took a hit last season, going from 15.5 PPG in 2014-15 to 12.7 in 2015-16. This year, it zoomed back up to 14.3, which was his second-highest scoring season ever.

You have yet to name a single player who's regressed in both of those categories as a direct result of playing with Westbrook. All of those players were either already regressing before they played with Westbrook or improved in one or both of those categories.

And I already said that Westbrook takes way more (ill-advised) shots in that same amount of time, which leads to his higher USG%. Also, if Harden plays more minutes per game but has on average the same time of possession as Westbrook (8.9), doesn't that mean WB is more ball dominant? And why do you use Passes made/MPG instead of Passes made/time of possession? The latter makes much more sense, because if you watch the Rockets game, there are a lot of times when Harden doesn't even have the ball in his hand, and the ball actually moves through every player on that team. If you go by Passes made/time of possessions metric, Harden makes 7.48 passes per every minute of his time of possession, as opposed to Westbrook's 6.86. Harden also has more secondary assists, which doesn't directly contribute to his stats.That's a meaningful difference.

Also, tell me when Westbrook was this ball dominant and broke the all-time USG% in the past? Oh, you can't so why do you keep bring up the past? Your whole agenda here is just to muddy the waters. I'm saying this year's version of Westbrook is being especially detrimental to the growth and development of his teammates, and all you can do is referencing the past when Westbrook was not even close to being this ball-dominant. Seriously, what's wrong with you?

Lastly, Adams, Oladipo, Gibson, Kanter, and McDermott were all on an upward trajectory in terms of TS% before they started to play with this version of Westbrook. Nice try, but the pattern is clear especially in comparison to Durant and Waiters.