WCQF | (3) Houston Rockets vs Oklahoma City Thunder (6) | HOU 2-1

[og15]

I guess I just didn't understand the significance of the comparison of Wesbrooks playoff successes, but then crediting the finals appearance for Westbrook and not Harden.

I agree with you, as I posted a few posts ago. I realized after I posted it how bad of an argument it was, and totally against the arguments I usually make. Team accomplishments are not player accomplishments.

Harden was not an all-star on those Thunder teams, but the fact that Westbrook has been further in the playoffs as an all-star than Harden is directly related to the fact that he has had better teammates in the past. The fact that Harden will get further in the playoffs this year is for the same reason.

No problem, I understand, just thought it might be a little unfair there, but it's all good.

[Freefloater]

Anderson still haven't made a 3pt shot in this series and hes the best 3pt shooter on both teams? Roberson , mcdermot wb jerian grant, oladipo all shooting better than him?

[RatherUnique]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

The Thunder won the game by double digits in the 41 mins that Westbrook was on the court.

They were beaten by 15 while he was on the bench from quarters 2-4, which shouldn't be overlooked because..... the points scored in those 7 mins count towards the final score.

He can "play smarter" next game & they will still lose if Donovan plays 12 players & their 2nd units get dominated like last night.

We're essentially criticizing Westbrook's lineups for not outscoring a 55 win team by 16+ points

Its absurd. If your team is getting outscored by 15 when your star sits, you are almost guaranteed to lose.

[mvpshaq32]

https://streamable.com/08s6v#

Westbrook has a career 39% 3PT shooter in McDermott who was 4/5 FG and 3/4 from 3PT on the night and still didn't pass the ball to him in the 4Q even though he was open multiple times. Enough with the pathetic excuses; this is just bad basketball IQ.

The bad IQ is being shown by anyone who thinks any of those plays but the first one is bad. The 2nd play Harden was close enough to close out and Westbrook got a mismatch (the bad play was settling for a jumper), the 3rd play Westbrook was in the middle of shooting (and it was a good look) when Doug finally got open, the 4th play was an uncalled foul (plus Jerian can't shoot).

lol what? It should be the complete opposite

I have no problem with the first play. When Westbrook gets a full head of steam going to the basket, he's hard to stop and could draw a foul. The 2nd/3rd play are an example of terrible basketball IQ when he has a great shooter literally adjacent to him with tons of space and he chooses to chuck a contested jumper instead. You can even see how the entire Rocket's defense is watching Russ and sagging off their man/shadowing the paint because they know he's likely to shoot and only shoot.

Harden literally has his back turned on McDermott in the 2nd play and Russ doesn't pass it to him. Harden is at the freaking FT line and there is no way he can close out if Westbrook makes the simple pass. The 3rd play is a simple drive and kick when Westbrook draw's McDermott's man and McDermott rotates to fill an open spot. Yet Westbrook choose to shoot a contested jumper over Capela instead.

Watch Harden whenever Ryan Anderson screens for him. He is always aware on where Ryno pops to and whips a pass to him or drives and then kicks. Russ seems completely oblivious to where McDermott is and once he decides he's going to do something, he is headset on only that goal. Harden always knows where his teammates are and makes adjustments on the fly depending on the defense reacts. Russ will commit to what he initially decided no matter how the defense reacts.

[Thundershock88]

They might have scored more. Russ had already went into heat check mode and his last two misses is probably one of the main reasons Donovan sat him. The Thunder got a 3 in 1 of the last 4 possessions so it's not like they did nothing. The run was more of a case of Harden getting hot at the end of the quarter. Maybe Russ gets them an extra 2 on of those other 3 possessions or maybe he keeps jacking like he did in the 4th and they go 0-4.

It's all hypothetical, but that lineup was baffling. Christon, Dipo, Singler, Roberson, Grant.

Definitely a head scratching lineup but I'm not really sure what any lineup does in that situation. Harden just made shots. Roberson was still out there holding him and that's what matters on that end. On the offensive side for the Thunder I really think we are only debating 2-3 points if that.

2 or 3 points matters when you only lose by 4.

[MrCheerios]

OKC actually scored less in the 3rd quarter than in their abysmal 4th quarter. Even when they were clicking on all cylinders in the first half, Houston went on runs. They cut the lead from 15 to 3 in the 2nd. Like game 1, Houston won every quarter after the 1st. OKC just can't keep up with them offensively.

[Screwston]

OKC actually scored less in the 3rd quarter than in their abysmal 4th quarter. Even when they were clicking on all cylinders in the first half, Houston went on runs. They cut the lead from 15 to 3 in the 2nd. Like game 1, Houston won every quarter after the 1st. OKC just can't keep up with them offensively.

They can keep up for 3 quaters, but totally collapse in the 4th, Rockets do D up in the 4th tho.

[Freefloater]

OKC actually scored less in the 3rd quarter than in their abysmal 4th quarter. Even when they were clicking on all cylinders in the first half, Houston went on runs. They cut the lead from 15 to 3 in the 2nd. Like game 1, Houston won every quarter after the 1st. OKC just can't keep up with them offensively.

They can keep up for 3 quaters, but totally collapse in the 4th, Rockets do D up in the 4th tho.

HOU : OKC is 5 : 1 this year...5: 0 when beverley is playing

rockets had double digits leads in every game

[MartinToVaught]

And I already said that Westbrok takes way more (bad) shots in that same amount of time, which leads to his higher USG%.

Westbrook took 5 more FGA/game than Harden this year. It's a sizeable gap, but not an Earth-shattering one, and it's largely because Harden has other options like Gordon, Ariza and Anderson who are capable of taking on more of the scoring load.

And why do you use Passes made/MPG instead of Passes made/time of possession?

To account for the difference in playing time. But if we look at passes made/time of possession, the gap gets even narrower: Harden made only 0.6 more passes/TOP than Westbrook did. Is 0.6 really the difference between team player and selfish chucker to you?

Harden also has more secondary assists, which doesn't directly contribute to his stats.That's a meaningful difference.

Passes per game =/= assists. Passes per game would naturally include the passes that set up secondary assists.

Also, tell me when Westbrook was this ball dominant and had the all-time USG% in the past?

He set what was then the second-highest single-season USG% of all time (now the third-highest) with 38.37% in 2014-15. His 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons also rank among the top 60 all-time. So yes, he has had historically high usage rates in the past.

I'm saying this year's version of Westbrook is being especially detrimental to the growth and development of his teammates

Yes, I know that's what you're saying. But just saying it isn't enough if you can't prove it. And so far, you haven't proven it.

Lastly, Adams, Oladipo, Gibson, Kanter, and McDermott were all on an upward trajectory in terms of TS% before they started to play with this version of Westbrook.

Again, that isn't true. Gibson and McDermott's TS% were already declining in Chicago this season before they got traded to OKC. You can't possibly blame Westbrook for declines that were already happening without him. Oladipo's TS% this year was the exact same as last year's - he isn't on a downward trajectory in that stat. You are still lying about stats that have been presented to you multiple times. At this point, it's clear that you're not interested in a good-faith discussion. You just want to bash Westbrook regardless of whether or not your criticisms have any merit.

[Tritodian]

Ironically, "ballhog" Westbrook and "unselfish" Harden both averaged roughly 1.8 passes per minute in the regular season. Harden averaged about 5 more passes per game than Westbrook, but Westbrook played about 2 fewer minutes per game than Harden did. If Westbrook played the same minutes as Harden, the gap between them would be about two passes per game. Two! Apparently, two passes per game is the difference between "unselfish MVP" and "selfish chucker who holds his team back."

Even more ironically, Westbrook has averaged 10 more passes per game than Harden in the playoffs so far. Who's the ballhog again?

- Harden and Westbrook has exactly the same amount of time of possession (8.9), despite Westbrook playing two less minutes per game than Harden.

- Westbrook leads the league in Front Court touches metric by far (84.1 vs John Wall's 79.2). FCT touches measures number of times a player touches and possesses the ball on their team’s offensive half of the court per game. This is telling because a lot of Harden's touches and possessions occur in the backcourt simply trying to bring up the ball, probably because he is physically slower than Westbrook. That means in term of actual half-court offense, Westbrook is hogging the ball way more.

http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=FRONT_CT_TOUCHES&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

- In the same amount of time of possessions (8.9), Harden on average throws 5.5 more passes per game (66.6 vs 61.1), has more assists (11.2 vs 10.4), has more secondary assists (1.7 vs 1.2), while Westbrook shoots way more (24.0 FGA vs 18.9 FGA) on a much worse eFG% (47.6% vs 52.5%).

So, tell me again. Who's NOT the ball-hog?

[Scizzup]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

The Thunder won the game by double digits in the 41 mins that Westbrook was on the court.

They were beaten by 15 while he was on the bench from quarters 2-4, which shouldn't be overlooked because..... the points scored in those 7 mins count towards the final score.

He can "play smarter" next game & they will still lose if Donovan plays 12 players & their 2nd units get dominated like last night.

We're essentially criticizing Westbrook's lineups for not outscoring a 55 win team by 16+ points

Its absurd. If your team is getting outscored by 15 when your star sits, you are almost guaranteed to lose.

oh you don't think Houston shooting like 30% and 17% from 3 and Okc shooting 65% in most of the first half had anything to do with those +- ? I think we can all say we didn't expect Hou to shoot that poorly the entire game. Yes Hou went on a run when Russ sat for a bit but he didn't give those same players that scored 50+ through 3 quarters much of a chance in the 4th. There is a big difference between how he played in the 1st/2nd compared to the 4th Q Russ had 8 points heading into 2nd quarter and they had a double lead in the 1st Q.

[Mazter]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

The Thunder won the game by double digits in the 41 mins that Westbrook was on the court.

They were beaten by 15 while he was on the bench from quarters 2-4, which shouldn't be overlooked because..... the points scored in those 7 mins count towards the final score.

Its absurd. If your team is getting outscored by 15 when your star sits, you are almost guaranteed to lose.

The Thunder won the game by 21 points in the 26 mins that Westbrook/Adams were on court.

Westbrook was beaten by 10 while Adams was on the bench, which shouldn't be overlooked because....the points scored in those 15 mins count towards the final score.

Its absurd. If your superstar is getting outscored by 10 when his big man sits, you are almost guaranteed to lose.

[Tritodian]

And I already said that Westbrok takes way more (bad) shots in that same amount of time, which leads to his higher USG%.

Westbrook took 5 more FGA/game than Harden this year. It's a sizeable gap, but not an Earth-shattering one, and it's largely because Harden has other options like Gordon, Ariza and Anderson who are capable of taking on more of the scoring load.

And why do you use Passes made/MPG instead of Passes made/time of possession?

To account for the difference in playing time. But if we look at passes made/time of possession, the gap gets even narrower: Harden made only 0.6 more passes/TOP than Westbrook did. Is 0.6 really the difference between team player and selfish chucker to you?

Harden also has more secondary assists, which doesn't directly contribute to his stats.That's a meaningful difference.

Passes per game =/= assists. Passes per game would naturally include the passes that set up secondary assists.

Also, tell me when Westbrook was this ball dominant and had the all-time USG% in the past?

He set what was then the second-highest single-season USG% of all time (now the third-highest) with 38.37% in 2014-15. His 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons also rank among the top 60 all-time. So yes, he has had historically high usage rates in the past.

I'm saying this year's version of Westbrook is being especially detrimental to the growth and development of his teammates

Yes, I know that's what you're saying. But just saying it isn't enough if you can't prove it. And so far, you haven't proven it.

Lastly, Adams, Oladipo, Gibson, Kanter, and McDermott were all on an upward trajectory in terms of TS% before they started to play with this version of Westbrook.

Again, that isn't true. Gibson and McDermott's TS% were already declining in Chicago this season before they got traded to OKC. You can't possibly blame Westbrook for declines that were already happening without him. Oladipo's TS% this year was the exact same as last year's - he isn't on a downward trajectory in that stat. You are still lying about stats that have been presented to you multiple times. At this point, it's clear that you're not interested in a good-faith discussion. You just want to bash Westbrook regardless of whether or not your criticisms have any merit.

You don't have any sense of what 'average' means. A difference in five shots is nothing in one game, but throughout the whole season it's a big difference. That's means if Westbrook and Harden played all 82 games, WB would have taken a whopping 410 more shots in a season.

FGA per game

1. Westbrook 24.0
2. Derozan 20.9
3. A.Davis 20.3
4. Cousins 20.3
5. Lillard 19.8

See the huge drop-off between Westbrook and other players? Usually when it comes to comparing averages, the disparity is not that big, and even difference in decimal points can be meaningful. So Westbrook taking five more shots than Harden on average is not a meaningless distinction. Same goes for passes made per time of possession. The fact that Harden makes five more passes during exactly the same amount of time of possession becomes huge if we extrapolate that to 82 games. Blake Griffin, for example, makes 55.9 passes per game vs Westbrook's 61.1 with similar playing time. That's a difference of 'only' six passes - are you telling me that there is no meaningful distinction between the two players when it comes to passing the ball?

Also, Gibson was shooting 54.9 TS% this season with the Bulls. That's actually the second best of his career, and his career best was just a season before that. And then he fell off to 52.8 TS% since joining OKC.

McDermott's TS% didn't change that much, but given the fact that he is shooting less (8.5 vs 5.6 last year) and was brought in mainly as a spot-up shooter, his efficiency should have gone up, not slightly decline.

[RatherUnique]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

The Thunder won the game by double digits in the 41 mins that Westbrook was on the court.

They were beaten by 15 while he was on the bench from quarters 2-4, which shouldn't be overlooked because..... the points scored in those 7 mins count towards the final score.

He can "play smarter" next game & they will still lose if Donovan plays 12 players & their 2nd units get dominated like last night.

We're essentially criticizing Westbrook's lineups for not outscoring a 55 win team by 16+ points

Its absurd. If your team is getting outscored by 15 when your star sits, you are almost guaranteed to lose.

oh you don't think Houston shooting like 30% and 17% from 3 and Okc shooting 65% in most of the first half had anything to do with those +- ? I think we can all say we didn't expect Hou to shoot that poorly the entire game. Yes Hou went on a run when Russ sat for a bit but he didn't give those same players that scored 50+ through 3 quarters much of a chance in the 4th. There is a big difference between how he played in the 1st/2nd compared to the 4th Q Russ had 8 points heading into 2nd quarter and they had a double lead in the 1st Q.

He checks out at 1:20 in the first, Christon enters the game. At that point the score is 32-20. He comes back in at the 9 min mark in the 2nd, score is 41-35. So we're still in the first half here when Houston was cold and OKC was hot & Christon's lineups are getting outplayed.

Russ checks out again at 2:20 left in the 3rd, the score is 86-74. In comes Christon again. At the end of the quarter it was a 3 point game.

-6, then -9. -15 overall. Both first and 2nd half.

Russell's lineups withstood runs and built double digit leads. The leads were either cut in half or almost completely wiped out.

Him "playing smarter" doesn't prevent any of that from happening. Donovan tightening the rotation could have, though. He played 7 bench players in a playoff game.

[MartinToVaught]

You don't have any sense of what 'average' means. A difference in five shots is nothing in one game, but throughout the whole season it's a huge difference.

Hence why I said it was a sizeable gap.

See the huge drop-off between Westbrook and other players?

Yes, but I also see the huge disparity between the offensive talent that those other players are getting to play with and what Westbrook has around him. Westbrook wasn't taking 24 shots per game when Durant was there. Do you really think he'd be taking that many shots per game if he had a Kyle Lowry, or a C.J. McCollum, or a Gordon/Ariza/Anderson trio? The closest thing he has to that is Oladipo, a draft bust who washed out of one of the worst teams in the NBA and who has never even sniffed a 20 PPG season in his career.

That's why I don't think it's that big of a deal, because Westbrook is stuck on a horrible roster right now and feels like he has to take that many shots to give them a chance to win. It's hard to argue with him, considering how hopeless the Thunder are when he's not on the court.

The fact that Harden makes five more passes during exactly the same amount of time of possession becomes huge if we extrapolate that to 82 games.

But he doesn't. He made five more passes per game this season, and much of that gap is the result of playing more minutes per game than Westbrook did.

Also, Gibson was shooting 54.9 TS% this season with the Bulls... and his career best was just a season before that.

So, in other words, you're finally acknowledging that his TS% was already declining before he ever played with Westbrook.

[gmoney411]

It's all hypothetical, but that lineup was baffling. Christon, Dipo, Singler, Roberson, Grant.

Definitely a head scratching lineup but I'm not really sure what any lineup does in that situation. Harden just made shots. Roberson was still out there holding him and that's what matters on that end. On the offensive side for the Thunder I really think we are only debating 2-3 points if that.

2 or 3 points matters when you only lose by 4.

That was the final score but it wasn't that close in the last couple of minutes. The Rockets were up 10 with a minute and a half left and Harden missed two pointless FTs at very end.

[jpengland]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

The Thunder won the game by double digits in the 41 mins that Westbrook was on the court.

They were beaten by 15 while he was on the bench from quarters 2-4, which shouldn't be overlooked because..... the points scored in those 7 mins count towards the final score.

He can "play smarter" next game & they will still lose if Donovan plays 12 players & their 2nd units get dominated like last night.

We're essentially criticizing Westbrook's lineups for not outscoring a 55 win team by 16+ points

Its absurd. If your team is getting outscored by 15 when your star sits, you are almost guaranteed to lose.

Totally negating the issue of everybody else on the team standing and watching Westbrook throw up 45 shots.

This is the real problem with Westbrook dominating the ball so much, other guys have no rhythm, they aren't feeling the offense. That's what puts a ceiling on a team playing like this. They will be as good as Westbrook and no more.

[Tritodian]

You don't have any sense of what 'average' means. A difference in five shots is nothing in one game, but throughout the whole season it's a huge difference.

Hence why I said it was a sizeable gap.

See the huge drop-off between Westbrook and other players?

Yes, but I also see the huge disparity between the offensive talent that those other players are getting to play with and what Westbrook has around him. Westbrook wasn't taking 24 shots per game when Durant was there. Do you really think he'd be taking that many shots per game if he had a Kyle Lowry, or a C.J. McCollum, or a Gordon/Ariza/Anderson trio? The closest thing he has to that is Oladipo, a draft bust who washed out of one of the worst teams in the NBA and who has never even sniffed a 20 PPG season in his career.

That's why I don't think it's that big of a deal, because Westbrook is stuck on a horrible roster right now and feels like he has to take that many shots to give them a chance to win. It's hard to argue with him, considering how hopeless the Thunder are when he's not on the court.

The fact that Harden makes five more passes during exactly the same amount of time of possession becomes huge if we extrapolate that to 82 games.

But he doesn't. He made five more passes per game this season, and much of that gap is the result of playing more minutes per game than Westbrook did.

Also, Gibson was shooting 54.9 TS% this season with the Bulls... and his career best was just a season before that.

So, in other words, you're finally acknowledging that his TS% was already declining before he ever played with Westbrook.

- Westbrook took 18.1 shots last year while playing with Durant, Ibaka and Waiters. Westbrook repeatedly took 18~19 shots per game even when he was playing with Durant AND Harden. That's way too much for a player who regularly posts below league average eFG%. If Westbrook is taking that many shots even when playing with multiple all-star caliber players, is it really surprising that he went to full chucker mode this season?

- What's with the constant moving of the goalposts? Harden made on average 5.5 more passes (which is equivalent to the gap between Westbrook and Blake) while having the ball in his hands exactly the same amount as Westbrook (8.9). That's all that matters. Why do you keep bringing up MPG? There are a lot of times when Harden doesn't even have the ball in his hands during the game (hence, why Harden and Westbrook had exactly the same amount of time of possessions despite Harden playing two more minutes per game); how do you make a pass if you don't even have the ball?

Harden possessed the ball 8.9 minutes on average while playing 36.4 minutes per game.

Westbrook possessed the ball 8.9 minutes on average while playing 34.6 minutes per game.

That means there are extra times when Harden doesn't have the ball WHILE BEING ON THE COURT compared to Westbrook. Do the math.

- As I pointed out earlier, Westbrook leads the league in Front Court touches by far. That means if we take away meaningless touches and time of possession that occurs in the backcourt, and just focus on how much a player dominates the ball in the half-court offense, Westbrook is far ahead of Harden.

- An upward trajectory doesn't always imply a linear straight line heading upwards. I'm talking about a general trend here, and Gibson was surely improving as a scorer compared to few years ago, which came to a full-stop since joining OKC. The same goes for McDermott.

[RightToCensor]

I started watching in the 3rd when Westbrook was rolling, and was wondering why Ariza and Harden were guarding him instead of Beverley. I'd assume Pat was in foul trouble because otherwise there's no reason for any other Rocket to guard Westbrook when Bev is on the floor.

[JH5]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

The Thunder won the game by double digits in the 41 mins that Westbrook was on the court.

They were beaten by 15 while he was on the bench from quarters 2-4, which shouldn't be overlooked because..... the points scored in those 7 mins count towards the final score.

He can "play smarter" next game & they will still lose if Donovan plays 12 players & their 2nd units get dominated like last night.

We're essentially criticizing Westbrook's lineups for not outscoring a 55 win team by 16+ points

Its absurd. If your team is getting outscored by 15 when your star sits, you are almost guaranteed to lose.

Haha THIS is absurd.

The Thunder won game 1 by 3 when McBuckets was on the court, does that make him better than Westbrook? So much garbage. Guess who had the worst +/- in game 1? Yeah WB.

Some people are saying in game 2 Westbrook was plus +11 and the back up PG was -15, that's the reason they lost. Well, look back at game 1 - Westbrook -25, back up PG only -6

People are trying really hard to push that his help is crap.