Luka Doncic

[nolang1]

Teodosic isn't like Nash or Curry, that plays that way on offense, then can't guard anyone on defense, he's just a guy that can't play both sides of the court with that kind of offense load. There is nothing strange about that in NBA either. Plenty of NBA point guards are put into a huge amount of touches and play creation duties, and have the ability to play defense, but usually simply play none. Because they can't do it from a conditioning stand. Like Chris Paul is a perfect example. He's not a bad defender in capability, he can defend, he just can't be a two way player all the time, with having so much energy expended on offense. That's Teodosic, who also has a little of that James Harden laziness, which makes his defense seem worse than it really is overall.

Yeah, if you have that kind of laziness while guarding scrub players by NBA standards, you're awful at defense. Anyone stronger, more explosive, and in better condition than their opponent can shut them down without even having to put in much effort. Steph Curry is quicker, stronger, more explosive, and in better condition than someone like Malcolm Delaney (1st team all-Euroleague last year, bad on both ends of the floor in the NBA this year), and that's before getting into his obvious advantages in anticipation, hand-eye coordination, positioning, etc.

Then doubling down and saying that even Chris Paul is a bad defender makes you even more of a joke. If anything, Paul conserves his energy offensively by not looking to score as much while his defense has consistently been the best among all point guards. That CP3 can still get burned at times by a player like Curry or Westbrook does not put him in the same universe as Teodosic, who gets burned by players even worse than Delaney (who is shooting 37% from the field and 23% from NBA three-point range).

[B-Ball Freak]

Lol Mirotic12 is trolling the hell out of you guys

[Ettorefm]

These are two completely different things that they're arguing. Asking if any kid in HS will struggle or not is a complete cop out imo. Yes, Michael Porter Jr would struggle a bit on defense in the EL. However, he would struggle for complete different reasons. He's not going to struggle because he's not quick enough to stay in front. Porter Jr would struggle because he's young and doesn't have his fundamentals 100% down.

It's completely fair to criticize Doncic's lateral quickness. Yes it's true, no one is arguing that Doncic is a great athlete or even a good one. However, being a good athlete and having good lateral quickness is one of the most important things with any NBA prospect. For European basketball, it's not a big factor, and some people just brush it to the side. I don't think you can do that, especially if we're discussing Doncic as the potential #1 overall pick.

Thank you. Someone who's not a stan for Doncic actually understood my post.

"hey but but but american kids can't defend in euroleague as well"

I'll take my chances on a bonafide future superstar who can't defend anyone because he's too weak now. That's naturally going to change. But not being able to keep up with the average euroleague guard/wing (and lateral quickness is not a thing you can learn) is a major red flag.

He could be the best passer in history; not being able to defend people and blow by guys who would be below average in the NBA affects his potential. Being such a liability alone limits his ceiling as an NBA prospect.

But hey, fanboy all you want.

Curry flat out is just awful at defense.

This is just trolling

[Ettorefm]

Like I said before, I like him a lot, he's strong, mobile, good finisher, good rebounder, and physical. Let's not get carried away with saying he's very athletic, when he's probably at best, average as a EuroLeague big athletically. And it's the same as Doncic, in that these young players will only get slower moving forward. They are at the fastest and quickest they will ever be right now.


You are way wrong here if you think they will only get slower. I can use my example. I was very athletic when 17-18 but I lacked the strength. I gained about 25lbs in the next 2-3 years and got even faster, more explosive and agile. My best testings were around 25yo so I kept improving until that age. What I am trying to say is not every player is the same. Players like Doncic get more explosive and faster after they are 18, especially because it is clearly visible he has not grown into his body yet. I have been saying this since the start of the season when most of you on here were saying he has a grown mans body. I dont know what you have been watching because it is clear this is not the case. Doncic will be getting stronger and as a result faster and more explosive for the next few years. He has that kind of body and I would really be surprised if he stayed at the current level. Saying that players are at their peak in terms of explosiveness and speed at 18 is a complete bull and I really have to question your knowledge about how body really works and how you are able to differentiate between different body types.

Players who are already above average tend to get better with NBa training because they are usually weak at 18. John Wall's legs are way stronger than when he entered the league, which is why he is even more explosive.

Yet, NEVER, EVER a below average dude who has awful lateral quickness and has a slow first step suddenly got way quicker with time. It doesn't happen, it has never happened at such a high level.

Kyle Anderson is just as fast as he was at 18, he did not get quicker or improve his lateral quickness just because he had NBA training and got older. He'll never be able to get past people, ever. No coach or experience can change that.

Players might get smarter or learn stuff, so their defense gets better simply because they develop defensive skill or how to limit their flaws, but their athletic deficiencies don't simply change.

And I don't want to sound offensive, but your personal example means nothing.

I was not doping, I never had any protein or other supplements and got faster and more explosive after gaining 25lbs of pure muscle between 19 and 21. I was working my ass off in the offseason, I was in the weight room every single day since the last day of the season until the team got together for the next one. I didnt take 1 day off for 3 years and worked out through all the small injuries. After all this my game was so much better and the guys that were on my level before all of the sudden werent even close to where I was.

Doncic is not Ingram, who never SERIOUSLY worked out a single day in his life (as he said himself). Of course skinny and weak players get stronger from 18 to 21 by a combination of PEDs, working out with NBA trainers and simply getting older. But Doncic is nothing like that.

It's funny how after a good game he's "strong as hell for a 18yo and has to face huge veterans in Euroleague and holds his own physically", yet when his athleticism is criticized, he's not even close to having a grown man's body, he's skinny and too weak.

Just pick one.



This is the dude that needs to gain at least 10 kg for him to move faster? Skinny legs?

[JPF]

Like I said before, I like him a lot, he's strong, mobile, good finisher, good rebounder, and physical. Let's not get carried away with saying he's very athletic, when he's probably at best, average as a EuroLeague big athletically. And it's the same as Doncic, in that these young players will only get slower moving forward. They are at the fastest and quickest they will ever be right now.


You are way wrong here if you think they will only get slower. I can use my example. I was very athletic when 17-18 but I lacked the strength. I gained about 25lbs in the next 2-3 years and got even faster, more explosive and agile. My best testings were around 25yo so I kept improving until that age. What I am trying to say is not every player is the same. Players like Doncic get more explosive and faster after they are 18, especially because it is clearly visible he has not grown into his body yet. I have been saying this since the start of the season when most of you on here were saying he has a grown mans body. I dont know what you have been watching because it is clear this is not the case. Doncic will be getting stronger and as a result faster and more explosive for the next few years. He has that kind of body and I would really be surprised if he stayed at the current level. Saying that players are at their peak in terms of explosiveness and speed at 18 is a complete bull and I really have to question your knowledge about how body really works and how you are able to differentiate between different body types.

Wholefully agreed.
Besides that, people saying he is already physicaly grown up and lateraly slow fail to notice that a big part at penetrations is strenght, not just quickness and you need both to effectively penetrate. Anyone that ever faced some noticably physicaly superior opposition when playing basketball should understand that, accordingly that's the easiest way to filter who never did

If Dončič was overall as slow as some people state, that would be very visible on open court situations, yet it's not the case.
He won't be the best athlete out there, that indeed is the biggest issue for him out there, but some people have serious issues with understanding bball beyond the stat sheets and highlights.


@Mirotic
Hard core euroleague fans need some comforting, since NBA is once again increasing the gap between the leagues in the past decade.
Praising european defense compared to NBA is one of those comforting zones euroleague fans like to tell to themselves.
Defenses are different first of all, the ability to play 1 on 1 defense of most players in NBA is unparaleled in euroleague. Sure there are some exceptional defenders in europe as well, but the concentration of those and the average level in NBA is clearly above euroleague.
You've got smaller height difference in europe, for an average lineup on court, let's say from 190cm-207cm, sometimes even less, with 200cm (+- 1 or 2 cm) US PF's or even C's dominating the defensive end. F.e. Maljković kept dreaming about a lineup where there could be endless switches among all 5 players on court. Compare that to as many legit 7 footers with defensive abilities you see in NBA. That and smaller court would be the reason f.e. for Real Madrid to "switch" on D as often as possible, there are ussualy smaller height and mobility differences between players, the space is more crowded and there are less guys playing above the rim (-remember the shock euro NT's got with Farried and Davis at the last olympics?). That f.e. is situational solution and doesn't mean euro teams are more inteligent due to that switching strategy, it means that while that tactics works in europe, it won't work in NBA. As simple as that.
NBA regular season intensity when one team is 25+? Same as euroleague intensity when one team leads 20+, you won't be saved by this fairytale.
When european team would be able to get 2 NBA level rim protectors, you'd be surprised how their defense would change.

I'm as much of a fan of european basketball as anyone, but let's be fair. Repeating that european defense is better than NBA defense up to eternity, won't make that into a fact...

[XTraderXL]

If you read my old posts, you would see that i never said he is strong enough and that he has a grown mans body. Other people were saying it but I never said this. I was consistent in saying he is nowhere near what he needs to be physically. I guess i just noticed this before everyone on this forum did. Its because I know a thing or two about this stuff and can see it fairly quickly.

You seriously cant see him gaining 10kg judging by this photo? Look at his shoulders, arms and chest. Probably his back needs some work as well and with added weight, his legs will get bigger too. He is over 2m tall so 10kg is not as much as it might seem. I will not try to convince you about his athletic improvement in the next few years because you already made up your mind so it would be a waste of time. We will just have to wait and see who is correct on this issue.

And one more thing. Mirotic said nobody becomes more explosive and faster after 18-20. I know for a fact it can be done from my own example and then you dismiss my case as being irrelevant. How do you expect me to have a debate with you if you dismiss first hand evidence as irrelevant?

[Derento]

My thoughts on Doncic current Athleticism

Jumping

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

In terms of leaping ability Doncic is solid leaper off one or two feet in space/a head steam. In crowded spaces he can struggle to get up quickly and high. In terms of defense he has shown some ability to get up to contest and block shots when helping on defense.
Speed/Quickness

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Doncic is fast with the ball in the open court. Long and powerful strides where he's a handful to stop from getting to the rim where he can finish,pass to shooter or find the big for oops. Accelerates well keep his dribble low and tight. He struggles with getting past the first line of defense without a pick and to has has shown mixed results getting past the big/help defender once he gets in the paint going for floaters/pass outs/Contact layups instead of easily getting to rim. On defense struggles to contain guards due to his slower laterally quickness. On offense he also struggles to blow by guards on sos which usually ends up for Doncic dribbling into a three through a snatchback,pullup,stepback.


Will post later on my idea on his room for improvement body wise. What he lacks that he can't really improve,what he has a good in base and can continue to improve in and who I feel is similar to him tools wise. I have done some reading on components,biomechanics of speed,strength,quickness,leaping ability. I find this very interesting topic, athletic training due to my interest in track and leaping. I hope can give an unbiased and informative take on this with my limited knowledge.

[Rasho Brezec]

There's different aspects of athleticism. Plenty of players can get up high and run fast with space in front of them. Explosiveness is something else though, that's what Doncic lacks and you can't really work to improve it. He's smart enough to compensate for that if he puts in enough work on up and under moves, floaters, etc.

[johnx]

The next hedo turkoglu

[Derento]

Before I make this post I'll say that basketball is a skill,instinct sport.
You could take clones of Westbrook and Lebron and teach them basketball for a week and they wouldn't be able play like them because of lack of skill and awareness. Victor Oladipo is by all accounts is freak athlete in terms of speed,explosiveness,strength and quickness but if you told him to to split a blow by a elite defender and posterize the big he would have trouble do to skill and instincts. While Chris Mullin a much worst athlete by all accounts could blow by defenders using anticipation and his skill.

Burst/explosion

Spoiler:

This can't be taught or trained. It's a combination of your CNS,firing patterns,movement efficiency.
Doncic will never have this and will probably be on the slower side in this aspect
Lateral quickness
This is also something that really can't be improved greatly.
You can do drills for it and work on your technique but for people players that lacks this it comes to awareness,anticipation and strength to combat lack of this.
Strength/size

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Everyone can gain strength but many players will always lack natural size and girth.
This something that Doncic has a great base for and will aid him as he gets older.
He is natural big and will be able to carve out space.
He has wide shoulders and thick legs so he'll be able keep a steady base and clear space in the post and pushing out smaller players when he initiate contact on drives,finishes and on defense when players players get into chest.
Speed in the open court

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

For bigger players this mostly has to do with ball handling skills,running technique,strength,fluidity,aggression than just pure speed.
Doncic's Tank in the open court,Gets low,pushes the ball ahead,Strong legs,flexible and fluid.
Tools wise I think he'll could have the size/strength of Joe Johnson while having a average half court burst like Klay Thompson and good speed in open court,lateral quickness will remain below average.

So in short I don't see anything physically that would stop Doncic from being a good nba player imo.
If he lacked burst and was skinny that would be a problem. Or not being fluid runner and leaper.
But he will forever lack imo the explosiveness and burst and lateral quickness to be a high volume scorer like a Harden,Westbrook,I.T,Durant,Kyrie,Lillard. To me if he really maximizes his skills like shooting,handling,post game he can a extremely effective player offensively ala Klay Thompson,Joe Johnson,Chauncey Billups,Deron Williams.

[Rasho Brezec]

Joe Johnson is a perfect comparison for what he could be. He should spend his whole free time studying Joe Johnson's game.

[pacersGM]

Joe Johnson is a perfect comparison for what he could be. He should spend his whole free time studying Joe Johnson's game.

and what is that? a profesional scorer? doncic is being praised and considered nba potential for everything else but scoring. (bball iq, passing, vision, size for a 2 guard / point forward).

johnson is a profesional gunslinger, 1:1 player, scorer. doncic strength is his team play, he makes players around him better, gets them involved. johnsons job is to have the ball in his hands with games tied in the final 20 seconds.

but i am shure doncic would love his career earnings of 200 mil.

i hope he gets picked 5-10. if he gets picked top 3, he will be considered a bust should he never make an all star team. (and that is very very ver hard to do).

[Prez]

You are high as a kite. Teodosic defense is pitiful, he gives up constantly letting guys pass him at will, really reminds me of was it 2015 James Harden defensive year, that one where he wasnt even trying.

Teodosic is definitely bad at defense from his lack of effort, but he does play team defense, and he does have the capability of playing man defense. When he wants to, he can play defense (he can be lazy). He's also decent if he defends shooting guards (which he should always do anyway), and not point guards.

And he's big enough and strong enough that he can play physical if he wants to, which he does do at times.

Curry flat out is just awful at defense.

You have argued with me before a few times here that for example, De Colo is a better defender than Teodosic - no, he's actually much worse than Teodosic at defense. Yes, Teodosic is bad at defense, because he can be lazy at it. But in terms of defensive ability, and being able to defend if he wants to, he's actually much better than guys like Curry and De Colo are.

When Teodosic decides to play D, he's not bad at all. He's just not athletic enough / not well-conditioned enough, to play both sides of the court, since he has to do almost all the play making and creation in his team on offense. It takes super conditioned athletes like Kidd or Stockton, or in European teams, Diamantidis and Spanoulis to play that way, and even those types of players would often have to take breaks on defense (like 3-4 times a game or so).

Teodosic isn't like Nash or Curry, that plays that way on offense, then can't guard anyone on defense, he's just a guy that can't play both sides of the court with that kind of offense load. There is nothing strange about that in NBA either. Plenty of NBA point guards are put into a huge amount of touches and play creation duties, and have the ability to play defense, but usually simply play none. Because they can't do it from a conditioning stand. Like Chris Paul is a perfect example. He's not a bad defender in capability, he can defend, he just can't be a two way player all the time, with having so much energy expended on offense. That's Teodosic, who also has a little of that James Harden laziness, which makes his defense seem worse than it really is overall.

No he isn't, at all.

[Mirotic12]

The next hedo turkoglu

He's better than Hedo right now.

No he isn't, at all.

In EuroLeague basketball terms, yes he is. If people are going to say Teodosic is awful at defense, based solely on his play in Europe, which is in a culture of basketball that demands certain levels of defense, then Curry will be judged the same way by me, when making a direct comparison between them defensively. Curry's defense wouldn't pass the muster in any good European team.

No one would really care about Teodosic's defense, if he was playing in the NBA.

One league places almost zero emphasis on defense (NBA), the other league places a strong defense first emphasis, something like Miami Heat and New York Knicks of the 1990s (EuroLeague). The NBA is the way it is for ratings. People in USA want high scoring games, and that's what the NBA gives them.

[UcanUwill]

The next hedo turkoglu

He's better than Hedo right now

In European basketball terms, yes he is. If people are going to say Teodosic is awful at defense, based solely on European basketball, which demands defense, then Curry will be judged the same way by me, when making a direct comparison between them defensively. Curry's defense wouldn't pass the muster in any good European team.

No one would really care about Teodosic's defense, if he was playing in the NBA.

Prime Hedo was definiely better than curretn Doncic. Prime Hedo is easily an Euroleague MVP candidate.

[Mirotic12]

Prime Hedo was definiely better than curretn Doncic. Prime Hedo is easily an Euroleague MVP candidate.

This whole discussion about Doncic is almost 50% of people enormously overrating him, and almost 50% of people enormously underrating him. Prime Hedo wouldn't even touch the ball as a lead creator, as much as Doncic does, in a team like Real Madrid. Sergio Llull is easily a better player than Hedo ever was.

In what ways could Hedo be any better than Doncic? The only thing I can think of is ball handling and rebounding would be about the same. I can name so many players in EuroLeague that are better than prime Hedo....

It's fair to compare Doncic to some big-sized EuroLeague lead guards of recent years, like a Marko Jaric, or maybe like a Nikos Zisis, and some of these types of guys...when people mention names like Papaloukas, that is going a little bit too far with where his talent level is. Conversely, calling him Hedo, or saying Hedo was better than Doncic is now, is really the opposite case. It's basically totally underrating Doncic.

I watched Hedo play for years.....

very low basketball IQ
awful shot selection
a chucker
would often take ridiculous heat checks
a pick and roll dominant player, that was almost useless in any other role
a "spread the floor four", that was as streaky as imaginable, as a 3 point shooter
a player that would regularly try to score the ball in in a half court set, against a set defense, by driving the ball 1 against 5 (even under FIBA rules)
a player that played good team defense and played physically, but that could not guard at all in switches and that got regularly abused on defense on the perimeter

Hedo did certainly have some good elements...at 6-10, he was a good ball handler, he had deep shooting range, he could run pick and roll, he was good at team defense, and he was a good rebounder. But his flaws were numerous and were really bad, with several of them being fatal flaws to any player's overall game and effectiveness.

If any European NBA player ever played the classic example of losing basketball, or loser's basketball - it was most definitely Hedo Turkoglou. Doncic is already a much more useful player than Hedo ever was.

[Rasho Brezec]

Joe Johnson is a perfect comparison for what he could be. He should spend his whole free time studying Joe Johnson's game.

and what is that? a profesional scorer? doncic is being praised and considered nba potential for everything else but scoring. (bball iq, passing, vision, size for a 2 guard / point forward).

johnson is a profesional gunslinger, 1:1 player, scorer. doncic strength is his team play, he makes players around him better, gets them involved. johnsons job is to have the ball in his hands with games tied in the final 20 seconds.

but i am shure doncic would love his career earnings of 200 mil.

i hope he gets picked 5-10. if he gets picked top 3, he will be considered a bust should he never make an all star team. (and that is very very ver hard to do).

Prime Joe Johnson was an all-around player, averaging 20-5-5. Doncic will never be trusted enough to handle PG duties full time, but he could learn how to use angles and ballhandling abilities to make himself a threat to score. Like Joe Johnson does.

[pacersGM]

Prime Joe Johnson was an all-around player, averaging 20-5-5. Doncic will never be trusted enough to handle PG duties full time, but he could learn how to use angles and ballhandling abilities to make himself a threat to score. Like Joe Johnson does.

a prime kobe bryant was also a 28-5-5 guy, but that doesnt mean he made players around him better, and we all know what kobe was. a professional scorer, gunner.

doncic couldnt be farther away from a scorer/gunner type of guy.

[Ettorefm]

I watched Hedo play for years.....

very low basketball IQ
awful shot selection
a chucker
would often take ridiculous heat checks
a pick and roll dominant player, that was almost useless in any other role
a "spread the floor four", that was as streaky as imaginable, as a 3 point shooter
a player that would regularly try to score the ball in in a half court set, against a set defense, by driving the ball 1 against 5 (even under FIBA rules)
a player that played good team defense and played physically, but that could not guard at all in switches and that got regularly abused on defense on the perimeter

See, this is why people take you for a troll.

In his best year, he shot 14 FGA. He mostly shot 11 FGA in his prime years.
He's a career 38% 3pt shooter with many seasons above 40%
He did not have low basketball IQ, and in no way is Doncic a better player RIGHT NOW than Turkogly was in his prime. WTF are you smoking?

The kid is fine, I hope he has a brilliant career and compensates his natural and unchangeable flaws by improving his all-around game even more. It's the stan fanbase that sucks.

I don't doubt he has the potential to be better than Turkoglu ever was, for sure, but better right now than Turkuglu in his prime? You sound like Lavar ball

But hey, you're probably right. You also said Curry is awful defensively, so there's that.

[reanimator]

Comparing Doncic who has never shown the ability to ISO to ISO Joe
Saying Kobe didn't make players around him better
Saying Luka Doncic is better than prime Hedo

So many insane takes on one page