2017 Draft

skywalker33 · Post #141 » by **skywalker33** » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:43 pm

Hartenstein has a Skita feel about him to me

SoCalNuggsFan · Post #142 » by **SoCalNuggsFan** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:49 am

skywalker33 wrote:Hartenstein has a Skita feel about him to me

Outside of being European, they're really nothing alike. Games are completely different, skita was super hyped and a top 5 pick, Hartstien is under the radar and maybe late lottery. Skita was 100% potential, Hartstien already has NBA level skills, Hartstien plays for a major euro team, skita played for a team that isn't even a professional team anymore.

Post #143 » by **NuggetsWY** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:21 am

SoCalNuggsFan wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:Hartenstein has a Skita feel about him to me

Outside of being European, they're really nothing alike. Games are completely different, skita was super hyped and a top 5 pick, Hartstien is under the radar and maybe late lottery. Skita was 100% potential, Hartstien already has NBA level skills, Hartstien plays for a major euro team, skita played for a team that isn't even a professional team anymore.

Well, everyone thought Skita had NBA skills too - well, not everyone. There were a few Nuggets posters that weren't so happy. :wink:

skywalker33 · Post #144 » by **skywalker33** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:28 am

NuggetsWY wrote:
SoCalNuggsFan wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:Hartenstein has a Skita feel about him to me

Outside of being European, they're really nothing alike. Games are completely different, skita was super hyped and a top 5 pick, Hartstien is under the radar and maybe late lottery. Skita was 100% potential, Hartstien already has NBA level skills, Hartstien plays for a major euro team, skita played for a team that isn't even a professional team anymore.

Well, everyone thought Skita had NBA skills too - well, not everyone. There were a few Nuggets posters that weren't so happy.

Can't say I've see anything more than highlights, but DX indicates he is only scoring 4.5/4/.5 per game on his team. Most highlights are coming from his play in the U18 games....but the NBA is far from that level of play, different crowd altogether. Seems that is EXACTLY what Skita was, SoCal, tell me the difference ??

SoCalNuggsFan · Post #145 » by **SoCalNuggsFan** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:46 am

skywalker33 wrote:
NuggetsWY wrote:
SoCalNuggsFan wrote:Outside of being European, they're really nothing alike. Games are completely different, skita was super hyped and a top 5 pick, Hartstien is under the radar and maybe late lottery. Skita was 100% potential, Hartstien already has NBA level skills, Hartstien plays for a major euro team, skita played for a team that isn't even a professional team anymore.

Well, everyone thought Skita had NBA skills too - well, not everyone. There were a few Nuggets posters that weren't so happy.

Can't say I've see anything more than highlights, but DX indicates he is only scoring 4.5/4/.5 per game on his team. Most highlights are coming from his play in the U18 games....but the NBA is far from that level of play, different crowd altogether. Seems that is EXACTLY what Skita was, SoCal, tell me the difference ??

Can't just say "he's not scoring much on a pro team, must be another euro bust". Jokic was scoring 11 ppg on a euro team when we drafted him. Juancho was scoring 9. It's my understanding that zalgaris is the biggest team in Germany and one of the biggest in Europe. Judging 19 year olds on the stats they put up in euro leagues isn't a good way to scout. Euro teams are notorious for keeping even the best young players in small roles because of age.

If we actually scout traits, Hartstien is an upper echelon big man passer RIGHT NOW. He also has a good shooting stroke but doesn't overly rely on 3s like many euro bigs. He has power and touch around the rim and more importantly, an NBA body. Won't have to worry about him becoming one of these bargnani type guys who can never bulk up enough to last in the league.

Defensively, it's tougher to project him into the NBA. He's a serviceable shot blocker and has shown flashes of lateral quickness to stay with guys on the perimeter. Who knows where he'll end up as an NBA defender but he has the tools and that's all you can really ask of a prospect, it's rare to see rookies be good defenders.

And he has the Nurkic nastiness. A big reason for skita and many other euro bigs' failure in the league is softness. I've seen more attitude from Hartstien than I did watching Nurkic before the 2014 draft, so I'm not worried about him not being able to hold his own physically or mentally.

As I've stated, because of Jokic's defensive deficiencies, I think that whoever the long term answer at the 4 is needs to be able to guard stretch 4s and protect the rim. Hartstien and Cam Oliver are really the only 2 guys from this class I can see developing into above average at both of those. Hartstien gets the edge over Cam because of the passing and the general polish on offense.

Edit: Porzingis averaged 6 PPG in the season before his first eligible NBA draft.

Post #146 » by **NuggetsWY** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:08 am

Some players that do well in Europe do not do well in the NBA.
Some players that do not do well in Europe do well in the NBA.
Some players do well at both. Some players do not do well at both.
The style of play is very different!

youngthegiant · Post #147 » by **youngthegiant** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:50 am

Denver needs a 3 for the future. Maybe the basketball Gods will give us a top 3 pick and a shot at Jackson or Tatum. But most likely we are picking between Jackson and Anunoby. Maybe Isaac falls if we are lucky.

Post #148 » by **The Rebel** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:48 am

ONe of the things you guys need to understand about Hartenstien is the whole Euro league setup. It is similar to the baseball minor league system with the caveat that sometimes can be relegated in Europe.

Skita was in a league that was basically so bad that it is no longer even recognized as a minor league. Jokic and Nurkic all came from the Adriatic league which was a B league team, or what would be comparable to a double A league. Hernangomez came from a A league team, but it was one of the smaller ones that would be considered more like our triple A teams, and was a year older than all these guys we are discussing. Hartenstien is coming out of a team that is considered more a major league team here, the fact that he is even on the team is impressive with the set up they have and him only being 18.

Just like in the NBA the young guys struggle to get minutes on their teams in those big upper tier A teams, especially if it is a good team that year, and some of those coaches are known to hide the really young ones from NBA teams until he is perfectly ready to be a big minute player. Hernangomez came out of a league where a lot of those teams will showcase a young guy so they can sale the rights to a bigger team or get an NBA buyout to increase their bottom line.

It is damn hard to know exactly what Hartenstien will be in the NBA, and some of those guys have busted (although Skita and Darko both could have been stars if not for the head problems), but I would not put him in any bigger risk category than any other player you could get from 15 back with high upside. In that area of the draft the higher your upside could be the higher the risk will be as that is the reason they will fall there.

Now I do not know that I would take him at 13, but that is more about maximizing value if you are going to take big risks. Trading back to get him and another high risk high reward guy like Giles or OG Anunoby would be what I would like to see, if neither work out you still have some great young talent on the team and a way to fill the holes, if 1 of them work out that you filled the hole in the core with a great player, and if both work out than this team could be amazing in 2-4 years.

skywalker33 · Post #149 » by **skywalker33** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:34 pm

A lot of my information on CBB is what I see, whether online on TV or sometimes even in person. Don't have that option with a lot of the International players so I have to trust the draft services and our own scouting team. From what I've heard, Hartenstein is raw and is a project, but has some tools. Heard the same of Skita, who I got even less info back in the day. I've see Hartenstein bounce around from a top 8 pick clear down to mid 20's so that clearly states question marks to me.

Post #150 » by **NuggetsWY** » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:09 am

skywalker33 wrote:A lot of my information on CBB is what I see, whether online on TV or sometimes even in person. Don't have that option with a lot of the International players so I have to trust the draft services and our own scouting team. From what I've heard, Hartenstein is raw and is a project, but has some tools. Heard the same of Skita, who I got even less info back in the day. I've see Hartenstein bounce around from a top 8 pick clear down to mid 20's so that clearly states question marks to me.

I get one Turkish league game a week during their season and I pick up a few other leagues now and then on the internet. I don't enjoy the games as much, but I try to watch specific players. However, there are some aspects of Euro-ball that I really like and they are aspects that fit well around Jokic - imagine that.

Mac1958 · Post #151 » by **Mac1958** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:06 pm

FWIW, NBADraft.net has moved Hartenstein back to the 2018 mock draft.

skywalker33 · Post #152 » by **skywalker33** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:19 am

Mac1958 wrote:FWIW, NBADraft.net has moved Hartenstein back to the 2018 mock draft.

Nbadraft.net is a fun site, but lacks a lot of credibility. DX reported Hartenstein just declared today...bet he could withdraw, noting in stone yet. DX has him at #19 on their draft board

Nuggets_Talk · Post #153 » by **Nuggets_Talk** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:31 pm

youngthegiant wrote:Denver needs a 3 for the future. Maybe the basketball Gods will give us a top 3 pick and a shot at Jackson or Tatum. But most likely we are picking between Jackson and Anunoby. Maybe Isaac falls if we are lucky.

from what I read, zero chance at isaac at 13.

Post #154 » by **NuggetsWY** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:26 am

Decent article about Anunoby
http://bsndenver.com/nuggets-draft-capsules-og-anunobys-defensive-upside-fits-denvers-needs/

skywalker33 · Post #155 » by **skywalker33** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:00 pm

With Gallo and/or Chandler on their way out, we'll definitely need a SF perhaps even with PT available (nah, what was I thinking :lol:

). OG has been my favorite prospect because he's such a good fit and has potential to grow.

Post #156 » by **NuggetsWY** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:33 pm

skywalker33 wrote:With Gallo and/or Chandler on their way out, we'll definitely need a SF perhaps even with PT available (nah, what was I thinking ). OG has been my favorite prospect because he's such a good fit and has potential to grow.

We know, we know :lol:

and I like him too - reading that article makes him sound like Superman mixed with The Flash and Stretch.

I like him a lot - I'd think he'd go higher except some might be afraid of his knee, maybe many teams?

We gambled on Beasley's knee and it's looking good (we hope). I think Anunoby is worth a gamble if he is available.

FilNugsFan · Post #157 » by **FilNugsFan** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:53 pm

Nuggets_Talk wrote:
youngthegiant wrote:Denver needs a 3 for the future. Maybe the basketball Gods will give us a top 3 pick and a shot at Jackson or Tatum. But most likely we are picking between Jackson and Anunoby. Maybe Isaac falls if we are lucky.

from what I read, zero chance at isaac at 13.

Seems like every year, there are Draft surprises like when SAC picked Willie Cauley-Stein at #6 (2015) and BOS drafted Jaylen Brown at #3 (2016), which luckily and consequently landed us Mudiay and Murray respectively. You never know.

Mickey8 · Post #158 » by **Mickey8** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:23 pm

SoCalNuggsFan wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:Hartenstein has a Skita feel about him to me

Outside of being European, they're really nothing alike. Games are completely different, skita was super hyped and a top 5 pick, Hartstien is under the radar and maybe late lottery. Skita was 100% potential, Hartstien already has NBA level skills, Hartstien plays for a major euro team, skita played for a team that isn't even a professional team anymore.

How come that he's under radar and underrated :-?

He has zero experience in senior basketball , even as a junior he was so raw in various basketball competitions. Dragan Bender had much better resume as a junior player and we saw how bad he struggled in his first year in the league. Skita had NBA skills( whatever that means ) as well , he was not just taken that high because he was so tall :roll:

Benetton was the European power house when Skita played there, club with bigger reputation at that time than Zalgiris is right now . Hartenstein have lots of deficiencies as player , also he's very raw with a little experience of playing in serious basketball competition. He's a risky pick if you are taking him that high.

SoCalNuggsFan · Post #159 » by **SoCalNuggsFan** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:49 pm

Mickey8 wrote:
SoCalNuggsFan wrote:
skywalker33 wrote:Hartenstein has a Skita feel about him to me

Outside of being European, they're really nothing alike. Games are completely different, skita was super hyped and a top 5 pick, Hartstien is under the radar and maybe late lottery. Skita was 100% potential, Hartstien already has NBA level skills, Hartstien plays for a major euro team, skita played for a team that isn't even a professional team anymore.

How come that he's under radar and underrated He has zero experience in senior basketball , even as a junior he was so raw in various basketball competitions. Dragan Bender had much better resume as a junior player and we saw how bad he struggled in his first year in the league. Skita had NBA skills( whatever that means ) as well , he was not just taken that high because he was so tall Benetton was the European power house when Skita played there, club with bigger reputation at that time than Zalgiris is right now . Hartenstein have lots of deficiencies as player , also he's very raw with a little experience of playing in serious basketball competition. He's a risky pick if you are taking him that high.

What I mean by NBA skills is you put him in the league right now, he's one of the best passing bigs. Also an above average shooter among bigs. Guys like bender and skita were projectable to to have NBA level skills but didn't have any yet. Watching bender last year, you could tell he had the potential to be a good NBA player but there was nothing you could point to to say "that skill is already better than the average NBA big."

Now the value of that is that even if Hartstien comes over and doesn't develop, he still goes on to have a decent career (even if not the career you were expecting out of a lotto pick) as a role player that has a couple things to specialize in. Lowers downside. It's why Bargniani was a huge bust but still had a relatively long NBA career. He was already an NBA level shooter.

And obviously he's not polished. You don't get polished teenagers at 13. Everyone in this range is either a raw young guy or a polished upperclassman with limited ceiling. You want a safe 19 year old to pick? Better hope we win that lottery.

Post #160 » by **NuggetsWY** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:44 pm

SoCalNuggsFan wrote:What I mean by NBA skills is you put him in the league right now, he's one of the best passing bigs. Also an above average shooter among bigs. Guys like bender and skita were protectable to to have NBA level skills but didn't have any yet. Watching bender last year, you could tell he had the potential to be a good NBA player but there was nothing you could point to to say "that skill is already better than the average NBA big."

Now the value of that is that even if Hartstien comes over and doesn't develop, he still goes on to have a decent career (even if not the career you were expecting out of a lotto pick) as a role player that has a couple things to specialize in. Lowers downside. It's why Bargniani was a huge bust but still had a relatively long NBA career. He was already an NBA level shooter.

And obviously he's not polished. You don't get polished teenagers at 13. Everyone in this range is either a raw young guy or a polished upperclassman with limited ceiling. You want a safe 19 year old to pick? Better hope we win that lottery.

He seems like a great fit with and/or backing up Jokic. My biggest concern is that he's labeled as "emotional" and I'd be concerned about Malone's ability to deal with him successfully.