RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)

[RCM88x]

I guess I'll put my name in the hat if possible. I'm not really sure how useful I'll be past the top 40-50, but I'd be interested in contributing what I can.

[Texas Chuck]

Good time to return to the board. Don't know if I'll participate yet, but for sure I'll be taking a look.

good to see you mate

[Tesla]

I would love to particpate in this. I missed all the ones that have been done in the past and would like to be a part of this one. I have not posted much in the last several years, but I always do read . Although, I do understand if that diqualifies me

[Texas Chuck]

If you really think there's a closed mind mentality, look at the arguments for Kevin Garnett in the last top 100, particularly the strong explanations of RAPM type impact stats, and look how high he finished. I am pretty sure he doesn't finish there without the support he was getting in the thread; the arguments were powerful and moved some people.

moved me (slightly, but significantly) and I wasn't even heavily moved by the RAPM arguments. But yeah anyone participating in this whose opinions aren't changed by some of the brilliant minds who grace us with their knowledge and opinions are doing themselves an enormous disservice.

I can't tell you how many times I have been on the other side of arguments with guys like Doctor MK, Dr Spaceman, drza, Sideshow Bob, trex, El Gee, tsherkin, etc and come away having really learned something from the discussion. Sometimes my opinion doesn't change to match theirs, sometimes the debate only serves to solidify my own views more clearly, but I walk away from the back and forth having gained far more than I have given.

I strongly encourage people to have open minds--even to people who take an approach you radically disagree with. I'll cite Doctor MJ specifically because of how much respect I have for him and that I know he takes this not as a reproach---I almost never agree with his approach or methodology, we see things from wildly different perspectives a lot. Yet if I just write him off as a theorist I'm the one who loses the benefit of everything he brings. He doesn't lose anything.

[rebirthoftheM]

Initially i would have loved to participate if accepted (though i am quite new here), but reading the first post, I think my incredible bias against pre 1980s basketball would make me unfit for such a discussion. I'd just be rehashing the same things when it comes to players like Oscar, Jerry West, Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, Elgin baylor etc. Would undermine the entire purpose of this GOAT ranking.

But id like to participate in the general conversation without voting.

Sent from my SM-G935F using RealGM mobile app

[Blackmill]

So it seems appropriate that I mention a pet project of mine.

Whenever I watch a game now, I tag each possession certain players are involved in with a bunch of descriptors, such as "Chris Paul, offense, sideline PnR, ICE coverage, doubled, pass, open dunk" or "Tim Duncan, defense, help rotation, drive, altered shot". This tagging system becomes useful with the program I've built, which you can query for specific events, and it will return a video containing all events matching the query.

For example, I made a query for all Magic Johnson PnR plays I have recorded. So far this is just games 3 & 5 of the '88 finals, the first quarter of game 7 of the '88 WCF, and the first quarter of a regular season game against the '88 Mavs.

Watch on YouTube

This is most useful when examining the granular details of a specific play that might occur just a handful of times per game. Indeed, it's a lot easier to analyze Magic's PnR game if all your watching is his PnR game. Not to mention, our knowledge will go with time, and this allows us to refresh our memories in minutes rather than hours.

Anyways, I have my own priority list of games to add, but in anticipation of the top 100 project I'd welcome requests.

Now I'll pray that my youtube account isn't banned for uploading NBA footage. Maybe I should strip the audio but I figure people would enjoy it...

[Joao Saraiva]

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I thought this particular project would generate more interest, am starting to wonder if people simply haven't noticed there's a new stickied thread.
Anyway, wanting to beef up the voter panel, so am grabbing the attention of you lot (a couple handful of guys off the top of my head) to see if you want to participate. If so, please read the OP and reply itt to the affirmative.

I definitely want to participate. When is it starting?

Been watching some 60s games... Do you have any 70s games you think would be particularly interesting to see? Specially from KAJ. I'm interested in watching him during his peak/prime.

[Blackmill]

Been watching some 60s games... Do you have any 70s games you think would be particularly interesting to see? Specially from KAJ. I'm interested in watching him during his peak/prime.

Here's a run down of some of Kareem's games (on youtube).

1976 NBA All Star Game: Go back 40 years and you'll find the players actually gave effort in the all star games. This game Kareem takes more of a passing role in the offense and you'll see him be very active (almost frenetic at times) with his defense. There's a couple plays where he shows off some impressive quickness guarding smaller players.

Lakers vs. Warriors, Game 6, 1977: If you're interested in how Kareem might defend the PnR then this is a good game to watch. The Warriors with Rick Barry ran it quite a bit and Kareem guarded the PnR at least a dozen times. Otherwise, Kareem was active with his help defense, and his playmaking role was fairly large. Again, he shows some impressive mobility for a man his size.

Lakers vs. Blazers, Game 2, 1977: The '77 WCF was an ugly series. Know that you'll see plenty of terrible turnovers as the Lakers' backcourt struggled to get the ball past halfcourt. Compared to the series against the Warriors, Kareem was less active with his help as he had to keep Walton in check, and turned more towards his jumper for offense. He still attempted plenty of sky hooks, though, and this game is a good example of how little a defender can do to stop that shot when Kareem was at his peak.

Lakers vs. Blazers, Game 4, 1977: Like the second game this has a lot of ugly play. What you'll see, though, is some really impressive rim protection. Kareem blocks quite a few dunks this game. His playmaking was very reduced but the Lakers offense didn't have much going on other than to throw it into the post.

Lakers vs. Sixers, Games 1-5, 1980: Not a 70s series but an important series to watch nonetheless. Here, Kareem has a much better supporting cast than before, and it allows his playmaking abilities to flourish. Expect to see plenty of great interior passing, a scoring repertoire similar to what he showed in throughout the late 70s, but a little less activity with his defense.

I'm trying to get my hands on Game 2 between the Warriors and the Lakers. Jerry West said he never saw a player play better than Kareem that game. If I do secure it, I'll post it as a video, and hopefully it lives up to West's words.

Also, I have some better quality versions of the 1980 finals than what I could recently find on youtube, so I could upload those if requested.

[70sFan]

I'm not sure if I have enough time to participate. Also, I don't have crtiteria in ranking players all time. It always has been tough for me. My knowladge about pre-shotclock era is also somehow limited. Finaly, as mostly 1960s and 1970s fan I might be a bit biased in comparisons. After all, I know this eras much better than early 1950s or 1990s.

It's always great project and give us tremendous disscusions. We can always learn something new about the NBA. I can try, but as I said - I don't feel I'm good enough in creating all-time lists to really bring something positive to this project. With so many knowledgeable guys I don't believe my opinion is so important.

[E-Balla]

Been watching some 60s games... Do you have any 70s games you think would be particularly interesting to see? Specially from KAJ. I'm interested in watching him during his peak/prime.

Here's a run down of some of Kareem's games (on youtube).

1976 NBA All Star Game: Go back 40 years and you'll find the players actually gave effort in the all star games. This game Kareem takes more of a passing role in the offense and you'll see him be very active (almost frenetic at times) with his defense. There's a couple plays where he shows off some impressive quickness guarding smaller players.

Lakers vs. Warriors, Game 6, 1977: If you're interested in how Kareem might defend the PnR then this is a good game to watch. The Warriors with Rick Barry ran it quite a bit and Kareem guarded the PnR at least a dozen times. Otherwise, Kareem was active with his help defense, and his playmaking role was fairly large. Again, he shows some impressive mobility for a man his size.

Lakers vs. Blazers, Game 2, 1977: The '77 WCF was an ugly series. Know that you'll see plenty of terrible turnovers as the Lakers' backcourt struggled to get the ball past halfcourt. Compared to the series against the Warriors, Kareem was less active with his help as he had to keep Walton in check, and turned more towards his jumper for offense. He still attempted plenty of sky hooks, though, and this game is a good example of how little a defender can do to stop that shot when Kareem was at his peak.

Lakers vs. Blazers, Game 4, 1977: Like the second game this has a lot of ugly play. What you'll see, though, is some really impressive rim protection. Kareem blocks quite a few dunks this game. His playmaking was very reduced but the Lakers offense didn't have much going on other than to throw it into the post.

Lakers vs. Sixers, Games 1-5, 1980: Not a 70s series but an important series to watch nonetheless. Here, Kareem has a much better supporting cast than before, and it allows his playmaking abilities to flourish. Expect to see plenty of great interior passing, a scoring repertoire similar to what he showed in throughout the late 70s, but a little less activity with his defense.

I'm trying to get my hands on Game 2 between the Warriors and the Lakers. Jerry West said he never saw a player play better than Kareem that game. If I do secure it, I'll post it as a video, and hopefully it lives up to West's words.

Also, I have some better quality versions of the 1980 finals than what I could recently find on youtube, so I could upload those if requested.

I have a Plex friend with tons of old games. I can check his server to search for any high quality version of those games. He might not have them though - most of his games are from the mid 80s and 90s.

Also that Blazers-Lakers series is amazing. That series is what made me think Walton could've been GOAT if healthy even though Kareem was still outplaying him.

[LA Bird]

I would be interested in participating.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Well the time is upon us to do another Top 100 of All-Time project. PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS OP TO BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PROCESS AND GUIDELINES

Links to prior lists:
Doctor MJ's spreadsheet with information back to 2006 and some 2003
RealGM Top 100 List 2008
RealGM Top 100 List 2011
Poster Pre-Lists from before 2014 project
RealGM Top 100 List 2014


Anyone and everyone is free to participate in the discussion during the course of this project. However, the voter pool will be pre-approved by a panel of moderators. Tenured posters in good standing will be allowed into the voter pool immediately.
Newer/less-known posters or posters with questionable records may be asked to participate in the discussion WITHOUT being allowed a counted vote for a few threads, to demonstrate capable knowledge, genuine intent, and ability to converse in a respectful manner. If they pass this “trial period”, they will then be made eligible voters.

Pending details of user record and history, the “trial period” may be longer and more arduous for some than it is for others.

But here’s the important part: YOU MUST STATE YOUR DESIRE TO VOTE IN THE PROJECT IN THIS THREAD.


This top 100 list is to comprise the greatest in all of BAA/NBA/ABA history (EDIT: where Mikan is concerned, you may also consider NBL as far back as '47). I am not going to stipulate a specific criteria that we all must follow. Everyone is free to be guided by their own values as to their ranking. However, the one thing I do ask [given this is to be an ALL-TIME list] is that you consider ALL players from all eras of BAA/NBA/ABA history.

I know there are a few individuals who only rank players post-merger or some other relatively arbitrary cut-off. For the purposes of this project, that is simply inadequate. I ask that you familiarize yourself [to the best of your ability] with players from all eras (going back as far as the BAA), and from the ABA as well, so that you can make educated speculations on the appropriate rank of players in an “all-time” sense.

If you do not feel up to that task, I would ask that you be up front about this and refrain from voting in the project (though you may still participate in the discussion).


Given we are not forcing a specific set of criteria on posters, please be aware as we move thru this project that the criteria of other posters will often differ from your own. As such, there isn’t always a “right and wrong” in much of this…...just differing value systems. Please hold that in mind and be respectful to one and other.

If you’re going to participate, I would like it if you would take a little time [if you haven’t already done so] to outline your criteria in this thread:

Official Criteria Thread

That way, anyone you are debating with/against can at least get an idea of where you’re coming from.


The project is likely to start at the end of June and will take ~8 months to finish. It’s a long process, and I hope those participating stick with it to the end (imo, it’s a lot of the later positions that get interesting, as there’s so much less separating each individual place once we’re past ~#50).
While the resulting list is always a big curiosity for me, too, it’s the discussion that I hope we can make vibrant, textured, and useful for future reference.


If there are no major objections, the process will be the same as on the 2014 project:
1) We will vote for one position/rank at a time, starting at #1 and proceeding to #100.
2) Each eligible voter can cast their vote for ONE player. Votes MUST be accompanied by some arguments that demonstrate you have given serious consideration to your choice (i.e. something like “won six MVP’s” or “highest ppg of all-time” or similar is not adequate; your vote will not be counted if adequate justification is not provided).
3) You may change your vote if you feel compelled to do so. If you do wish to change your vote, please edit your original vote post and otherwise just give me a heads-up post that you’ve changed your vote.
4) The vote for each thread/position will be open for ~48 hours. At the end of that 48-hour period if one player has a majority of the total vote, that player will be awarded the rank being voted on. If no single player has a majority of the vote, we will enter a 24-hour run-off vote between the top 2 vote recipients (or rarely the top 3, in event of a tie). If your original vote was cast for one of the players in the run-off, you do NOT need to repeat your vote once we go into run-off (your original vote will simply be counted). i.e. only vote in the run-off if you original vote was NOT for one of the two run-off contestants (or if you wish to change your original vote).
5) We (the panel of moderators) will be watching closely for any evidence of collusion or “manipulation” of the vote. If we become suspicious an individual is participating in this manner, he or she may be removed from the voter panel, pending further investigation and/or trial period. EDIT: those guilty of any other general misbehavior may also be removed from the voter panel.


I think that’s about it. Again, if you want to vote, please make your request here. Any questions, concerns, etc you may have, now is the time to ask as well.

Voter Panel
trex_8063
eminence
Colbini
Clyde Frazier
Quotatious

PaulieWal
Texas Chuck
drza
Dr Spaceman
fpliii

Hornet Mania
Eddy_JukeZ
SactoKingsFan
Blackmill
JordansBulls

RSCD3_
BasketballFan7
micahclay
PockyCandy

I mean I don't think I will be able to post consistently at all with things going on, but I'll try to contribute when I can

[Blackmill]

Also that Blazers-Lakers series is amazing. That series is what made me think Walton could've been GOAT if healthy even though Kareem was still outplaying him.

Agreed. Especially since Walton was only 25, and because of missed play time, he went into the '77 season as essentially a second year player. If healthy he probably would have kept getting better for another 3-5 years which is incredible when you think about how good he already was.

[trex_8063]

I guess I'll put my name in the hat if possible. I'm not really sure how useful I'll be past the top 40-50, but I'd be interested in contributing what I can.

You're in.

[trex_8063]

Initially i would have loved to participate if accepted (though i am quite new here), but reading the first post, I think my incredible bias against pre 1980s basketball would make me unfit for such a discussion. I'd just be rehashing the same things when it comes to players like Oscar, Jerry West, Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, Elgin baylor etc. Would undermine the entire purpose of this GOAT ranking.

But id like to participate in the general conversation without voting.

Sent from my SM-G935F using RealGM mobile app

I very much appreciate you being up front about that. Please do contribute to the general discussion, though.

[trex_8063]

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You're all in.

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If you don't feel solid enough in your criteria/method to vote, and would like to participate in the discussion aspect only, that's your call. Would love to have your input either way.

[70sFan]

Yeah, I'm always interested in discussion about basketball. I'd try to bring some information here and there. I'll also remind you about some older stars that are often forgotten in such talks

[Colbinii]

Yeah, I'm always interested in discussion about basketball. I'd try to bring some information here and there. I'll also remind you about some older stars that are often forgotten in such talks

Please contribute...

Sent from my SM-G920P using RealGM mobile app

[Doormatt]

Speaking as someone who has not posted on here in forever, this interests me.

Even if accepted, I couldn't make a promise to contribute regularly. I realize this is not a strong case for me - I'm just tryna be honest.

[2klegend]

I like to participate as a voter. I do believe many don't really understand how to rank player. I look at the total package in their regular and postseason to make a strong case for each player.