Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...Celtics record 10-2 Cavs 5-6..MVP year

RingsDontLie · Post #1 » by **RingsDontLie** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:03 am

11/4 update: We see Kyrie's impact on the Celtics with Isiah removed. They are currently 7-2. Cavs are not doing well without Kyrie at 4-5. Kyrie is a champion for a reason, and is the most skilled player in the game today, and the most clutch player in the game today. He is definitely without a doubt, the best Point Guard in the game today. Could be an MVP year for him, and I think the Celtics, who are defensive minded, have the best chance against Golden State. I think Celtics beat the Cavs in the ECF. It's better than Lebron doesn't advance this season. I think this is the season where Durant fully embarrasses Lebron if they go against each other again. Would be another big blow to Lebron's legacy.
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The guy is so dominant at times that he makes LBJ look like the 2nd best player on his team. This is why I always thought the Cavs had a chance and never discounted them completely. When Kyrie starts going goat level in the playoffs, it changes everything. When Kyrie explodes he is a greater force than Curry.

I feel Kyrie has surpassed CP3 and he's tugging on Steph's shorts as we speak.

Kyrie is having a better finals than Curry. Kyrie had a better finals than Curry last season as well.

Honestly, if I got to choose which player I want in a finals situation, it's actually a tough choice between Curry or Kyrie.

So I'm not even sure Kyrie isn't better than Curry right now. And Kyrie's offense has to be killing and tiring Thompson or Curry out, that it's affecting them on the offensive end. So by him being aggressive, he's taking out the splash brothers legs in the process on the offensive end.

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blazeyo · Post #2 » by **blazeyo** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:12 am

Meh, if you give him Chris Paul's BB IQ then he could have been an MVP one day. Kyrie is all talent but he doesn't know how to play right.

RCM88x · Post #3 » by **RCM88x** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:17 am

Honestly, I'm not even sure if he's not the greatest player in the game.

giordunk · Post #4 » by **giordunk** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:19 am

I think a lot of point guards could thrive in Kyrie's role... When Damian Lillard gets hot he gets just as hot as Kyrie, and Lillard doesn't have LeBron as a teammate. I think guys like IT, Lowry, Lillard, maybe even Kemba could do just as good a role.

This still means Kyrie is REALLY good but top 5 is too much.

lambchop · Post #5 » by **lambchop** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:20 am

curry over kyrie any regular season game of the week.
kyrie just cant show enough sustained greatness to considered top 5 or even 10 imo

Wagonband · Post #6 » by **Wagonband** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:26 am

He is not even a top 5 PG. Just because he had 2 great games in a row doesn't make him a top 5 player in the NBA...

RingsDontLie · Post #7 » by **RingsDontLie** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:26 am

RCM88x wrote:Honestly, I'm not even sure if he's not the greatest player in game.

Well at least you didn't deny he outplayed LBJ in a critical elimination game.

Wagonband wrote:He is not even a top 5 PG. Just because he had 2 great games in a row doesn't make him a top 5 player in the NBA...

Look at his stats for the season...last year's finals...this year's finals...hes the reason the Cavs are alive and breathing right now. Why would I pick Curry over a Kyrie who consistently out performs him in the finals 2 years in a row.

76ciology · Post #8 » by **76ciology** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:26 am

In the 90s where pure scoring numbers is king, maybe.

Lorenzomax7 · Post #9 » by **Lorenzomax7** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:36 am

giordunk wrote:I think a lot of point guards could thrive in Kyrie's role... When Damian Lillard gets hot he gets just as hot as Kyrie, and Lillard doesn't have LeBron as a teammate. I think guys like IT, Lowry, Lillard, maybe even Kemba could do just as good a role.

This still means Kyrie is REALLY good but top 5 is too much.

This. Lowry might not be this good at scoring though. C.J. is another good option.

Not trying to look down my nose at his great scoring ability but his defensive and pure pointing skills really put him miles away from the Top 7-10 PGs.

brettski · Post #10 » by **brettski** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:39 am

Remind me what his on off stats are this series compared to Lebrons?

RingsDontLie · Post #11 » by **RingsDontLie** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:39 am

76ciology wrote:In the 90s where pure scoring numbers is king, maybe.

Well it sure helped the Cavs avoid a Game 4 loss last I checked. Cavs fans better hope he can keep it up or they are dead. And at this pace and high scoring games, pure scoring is probably a big factor. I mean this is 80s/90s pace.

Johnny Firpo · Post #12 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:41 am

Kyrie's best is up there with anybody, but he just can't consistently bring it. Sorry, but without that, he is never going to be in the MVP discussion, never mind being in the Top 5 player discussion. Are you crazy? For a handful of games?

Wagonband · Post #13 » by **Wagonband** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:41 am

RingsDontLie wrote:Look at his stats for the season...last year's finals...this year's finals...hes the reason the Cavs are alive and breathing right now. Why would I pick Curry over a Kyrie who consistently out performs him in the finals 2 years in a row.

Curry was injured last year. You can say everyone is banged up as much as you want, but he was more than just banged up.

Is he outplaying him this year? Hardly. He might be scoring more, but Curry is doing a much better job facilitating and rebouding, and arguably defending.

Please don't overreact after one game. Irving has never been a winning player without the gravity of LeBron being next to him giving him a much easier time playing.

He is a very good player, but he is not a top 15 player in the NBA.

Moochthemonkey · Post #14 » by **Moochthemonkey** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:42 am

RingsDontLie wrote:I feel Kyrie has surpassed CP3 and he's tugging on Steph's shorts as we speak.

CP3 is a smarter, a superior passer, and a considerably better defender. Kyrie is obviously a better scorer, but I would say CP3 is slightly more efficient and consistent on the offensive end. Kyrie just saves his monster games for when it matters the most

RingsDontLie · Post #15 » by **RingsDontLie** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:47 am

Wagonband wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:Look at his stats for the season...last year's finals...this year's finals...hes the reason the Cavs are alive and breathing right now. Why would I pick Curry over a Kyrie who consistently out performs him in the finals 2 years in a row.

Curry was injured last year. You can say everyone is banged up as much as you want, but he was more than just banged up.

Is he outplaying him this year? Hardly. He might be scoring more, but Curry is doing a much better job facilitating and rebouding, and arguably defending.

Please don't overreact after one game. Irving has never been a winning player without the gravity of LeBron being next to him giving him a much easier time playing.

He is a very good player, but he is not a top 15 player in the NBA.

Lol, one game, he's averaging 30ppg in the finals after four games :crazy:

What's more crazy...he's 24 years old.

Hect0r_Zer0n1 · Post #16 » by **Hect0r_Zer0n1** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:17 am

RingsDontLie wrote:
Wagonband wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:Look at his stats for the season...last year's finals...this year's finals...hes the reason the Cavs are alive and breathing right now. Why would I pick Curry over a Kyrie who consistently out performs him in the finals 2 years in a row.

Curry was injured last year. You can say everyone is banged up as much as you want, but he was more than just banged up.

Is he outplaying him this year? Hardly. He might be scoring more, but Curry is doing a much better job facilitating and rebouding, and arguably defending.

Please don't overreact after one game. Irving has never been a winning player without the gravity of LeBron being next to him giving him a much easier time playing.

He is a very good player, but he is not a top 15 player in the NBA.

Lol, one game, he's averaging 30ppg in the finals after four games

What's more crazy...he's 24 years old.

Is he good? Can the Lakers get him?

blazeyo · Post #17 » by **blazeyo** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:26 am

Lakers fans want their Kobe fix. They would trade a farm to have Kyrie on the team just for the nostalgia.

flintsky21 · Post #18 » by **flintsky21** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:34 am

Kyrie is so criminally underrated and underappreciated. Everyone's still attributing it to the "Lebron factor," implying that any other decent PG in the league would score 38 and 40 points in back to back finals games simply coz he got Lebron as teammate. He utterly outplayed Curry, outscoring him 40 to 14, and people even barely talk about it. If it was the other way around there probably would be at least 5 threads about it. You'd think that after last year's finals, where Kyrie stood toe-to-toe against the 2x MVP, that people would start giving Irving the recognition he deserves, but the truth is by the time the next season starts, there will yet again be another Kyrie vs Lowry debate instead of comparing him against the likes of Curry, Westbrook or Wall.

Dupp · Post #19 » by **Dupp** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:46 am

RCM88x wrote:Honestly, I'm not even sure if he's not the greatest player in game.

He was the second best player in the game which aint bad.

Post #20 » by **NyCeEvO** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:54 pm

flintsky21 wrote:Kyrie is so criminally underrated and underappreciated. Everyone's still attributing it to the "Lebron factor," implying that any other decent PG in the league would score 38 and 40 points in back to back finals games simply coz he got Lebron as teammate. He utterly outplayed Curry, outscoring him 40 to 14, and people even barely talk about it. If it was the other way around there probably would be at least 5 threads about it. You'd think that after last year's finals, where Kyrie stood toe-to-toe against the 2x MVP, that people would start giving Irving the recognition he deserves, but the truth is by the time the next season starts, there will yet again be another Kyrie vs Lowry debate instead of comparing him against the likes of Curry, Westbrook or Wall.

The problem is that Kyrie is caught between two sides.

The one side is that he simply doesn't possess the gravity that Curry brings to a team on a nightly basis. We all know that from the moment that he crosses half court, he is a threat to bomb from deep. It's the reason why CLE traps him so high, hedges so hard on PnR, and plays physical with him. They are trying to do everything that they can to inhibit the ease with which he can make 3s at an extremely high volume. Kyrie is good but he doesn't have the type of draw nor the ability to open the floor for others that Steph does.

The other side is actually the more compelling one. There is a large contingent of LBJ supporters that need to prop up the narrative that LeBron has the midas touch; any garbage he plays with turns into gold. And by box score measurements and a surface analysis of the game, it would appear to be true.

However, most people honestly do not understand that it isn't easy being LeBron's teammate, especially one as talented as Kyrie.

There is a sacrifice to one's personal game that you have to make in order to play with him. Yes, you do get the benefit of playing in a near elite offensive system, but it surely isn't a democratic one.

LBJ plays free safety on defense which helps him reach rebounding totals very quickly. He brings the ball up, initiates the offense, beats his man off the dribble, and gives you the ball so that you can shoot a 3. (This obviously racks up the assists.) The only time another player runs sets is when LBJ doesn't feel like doing it. Because of this, he will always have tremendous box score numbers. Simply by the nature of running with LBJ, it would be much harder for anyone to put up great numbers consistently considering that plays aren't designed to be run through them often.

Bosh and Wade underwent the same treatment over time. Bosh warned Love ahead of time, yet Love didn't understand it until he experienced himself.

On one hand, you need to attribute it to LBJ's greatness that he is almost always a mismatch when he has the ball in his hands, and thus you can regularly expect the defense to collapse when he inevitably beats his man off the dribble or in PnR.

At the same time, LeBron's teammates are all marginalized in the sense that by letting LBJ do everything, his teammates can't do all that they may want to do. For some like JR, Shumpert, and Korver, it's great because he enables you to just focus on your strengths. But for guys like Wade, Bosh, Love, and Kyrie, it's very tough because you know that you can do so much more, but you're sort of being forced to primarily become just a shooter. They're not really allowed to showcase their strengths as much as they'd like because it doesn't go with the LBJ system. Thus, they're often critiqued for not flourishing in a role that they were never really designed to play in.

Players who are or could be developed into greater talents are by design reduced to shooters. And shooters know that completely wide open in-game shots are actually not easy to hit, since they usually aren't rhythm shots.

The hardest part of the play, which is making the shot, falls on his teammates. LBJ has some of the best spot up shooters surrounding him but it goes to show that it's very hard to always show up on demand like that, especially when you're not allowed to get into your own rhythm.

LBJ kills two birds with one stone with the system that his teams run. He generates all of the action (hence why we don't often see too many hockey assists from them) and can put up fantastic numbers, but his teammates have to be elite marksmen all of the time which is impossible for any one to do. By nature of LBJ's greatness but also by design of the system, his better teammates (who aren't 3&D players by nature) are essentially setup to always come up short.

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