Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...Celtics record 10-2 Cavs 5-6..MVP year

[Edrees]

Kyrie will be exposed like crazy when LeBron declines

[SFrush]

Lmao you're hilarious.

It's as though you don't even watch basketball.

Curry is a much better scorer, passer, rebounder, defender.

Put Curry on LeBron's team and the NBA wouldn't be fair.

Hilarious that you think a guy with half the shooting ability of Curry, an inability to play off the ball like Curry and create like Curry would fit into their motion system.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Especially in the East. I'm still trying to figure out what richboy was talking about saying the Cavs would've been swept 2 straight years if you put Curry in the Cavs offense. That made no sense.

Did you not see Curry in last years finals. Is Curry having a game like game 4 that Kyrie had to win a game.

I can see this is a waste of time.

[RingsDontLie]

30ppg in the finals for Kyrie. That is crazy impressive, outdoing Curry again for the 2nd finals in a row. It's like I said, Cavs are a more top heavy team.

[knicksNOTslick]

30ppg in the finals for Kyrie. That is crazy impressive, outdoing Curry again for the 2nd finals in a row. It's like I said, Cavs are a more top heavy team.

Kyrie didn't outdo Curry in the Finals. Oh please, and one game where he played out of his mind doesn't make up for it.

Curry was close to averaging a triple double during the Finals, especially after the Cavs defense was focused on shutting him down. He got his teammates open and played within the offense. The Warriors were letting Kyrie get his, because that's all he could do.

Kyrie can definitely score but he can't run a team.

[knicksNOTslick]

If Kyrie wasn't playing with LeBron on a contender he'd be called the same thing Marbury and Francis were, a talented ballhog who can't make his teammates better.

That's not to take away from his 1 on 1 scoring skills but it is what it is..

Exactly. LeBron's gravity is what allows Kyrie the opportunities to go 1 on 1.

Kyrie is a talented 1 on 1 scorer. He does nothing else at a high level.

Take LeBron out of this series and things look real nasty for the Cavs offence.

Well, so is James Harden and people think hes a top 4 player in the NBA.

James Harden's PG ability is way ahead of Kyrie. He can actually run a team as the top dog without needing Lebron on his side.

So no, Harden's not just a talented 1 on 1 scorer.

[LivingLegend]

Exactly. LeBron's gravity is what allows Kyrie the opportunities to go 1 on 1.

Kyrie is a talented 1 on 1 scorer. He does nothing else at a high level.

Take LeBron out of this series and things look real nasty for the Cavs offence.

Well, so is James Harden and people think hes a top 4 player in the NBA.

James Harden's PG ability is way ahead of Kyrie. He can actually run a team as the top dog without needing Lebron on his side.

So no, Harden's not just a talented 1 on 1 scorer.

Right, because I missed where Harden was a prolific passer his first 7 years in the league. It probably has nothing to do with him handling the ball all the time and the designed offense of 1 pass and shoot to inflate assist numbers or anything. No, it couldnt be that

You know what also happens when Harden thinks hes a good facillitator? Him breaking the NBA record for turnovers in a season 2 years in a row.

[Michael Lucky]

Absolutely fantastic ISO player. Not a great team ball player.

[knicksNOTslick]

Well, so is James Harden and people think hes a top 4 player in the NBA.

James Harden's PG ability is way ahead of Kyrie. He can actually run a team as the top dog without needing Lebron on his side.

So no, Harden's not just a talented 1 on 1 scorer.

Right, because I missed where Harden was a prolific passer his first 7 years in the league. It probably has nothing to do with him handling the ball all the time and the designed offense of 1 pass and shoot to inflate assist numbers or anything. No, it couldnt be that

You know what also happens when Harden thinks hes a good facillitator? Him breaking the NBA record for turnovers in a season 2 years in a row.

Did I say he was prolific? I said he's a better PG than Kyrie. And that's because Kyrie's not really a good PG imo. He's probably one of the best one-on-one scoring guards out there, but in terms of running a team, I'll take Harden over him. At least he's had success as the top dog, which Kyrie can never claim. FYI, running a team doesn't just mean passing. It's about running the plays for the team, which Harden does a lot better than Kyrie.

Like it or not, Harden can run a team and he has actually proven it season after season, whereas Irving has not. Kyrie needs Lebron to be on a winning team. Who does Harden have?

[HurricaneKid]

Finals TS%

KD - .698
LeBron - .630
Curry - .619
Warriors - .595
Cavs - .568
Kyrie - .558

And that is literally all he does is score. Train wreck defensively. Awful distributor. Top 5 player? I MIGHT give you top 10 ISO scorer. But he isn't close to a top 25 overall player.

[alebaba]

Kyrie can't carry a team to the playoff, how can he be a top 5 player....Hes only good at scoring, that's pretty much it.

[mihail_petkov]

Any statistic what is Curry's TS, FG% and 3P% without his half court shots at the buzzer?

[donnieme]

Well, so is James Harden and people think hes a top 4 player in the NBA.

James Harden's PG ability is way ahead of Kyrie. He can actually run a team as the top dog without needing Lebron on his side.

So no, Harden's not just a talented 1 on 1 scorer.

Right, because I missed where Harden was a prolific passer his first 7 years in the league. It probably has nothing to do with him handling the ball all the time and the designed offense of 1 pass and shoot to inflate assist numbers or anything. No, it couldnt be that

You know what also happens when Harden thinks hes a good facillitator? Him breaking the NBA record for turnovers in a season 2 years in a row.

Harden was actually a very good passer when he played on OKC and could be relied on to run their 2nd unit. Something Kyrie hasnt been able to do. You should really just stop trying to put Kyrie and Harden on the same level.

[Pelly24]

Finals TS%

KD - .698
LeBron - .630
Curry - .619
Warriors - .595
Cavs - .568
Kyrie - .558

And that is literally all he does is score. Train wreck defensively. Awful distributor. Top 5 player? I MIGHT give you top 10 ISO scorer. But he isn't close to a top 25 overall player.

Give Kyrie a legit rim protector and a Nic Batum and Kyrie could thrive as a team's best players. The top 10 ISO part isn't really a matter of you "giving" anything; he had the best points per possession while leading the league in volume by far, and has been near the top of the league since he stepped into the league as a 19-year-old. And that was as a "first option" for anyone who'd want to say he can only excel when LeBron's on the court. Making that quality even more dangerous is the fact that he shot 40% from three point land this year while making 220 threes, and he shoots about 38% from three off the dribble, which is as good as anyone in the league not-named stephen curry.

As for the TS% numbers. Who, exactly, did Curry have to worry about guarding him on Cleveland? Kyrie had to deal with Klay Thompson, Iggy, help defense from Draymond Green and the best small-ball center in the league in Kevin Durant, who's also athletic enough to guard him on the perimeter. If they switched places, Kyrie would absolutely fry the cavs defense and probably have averaged 30+. he's not as good as curry--not even really all that close, but to use a 56 TS% against a top 2 defense as a negative--especially when he shot 47/42/87 splits—just feels silly. He did have some awful possessions, though.

"Not even close to a top 25 player overall." yeah, that's just a joke. I'd say he's comfortably in the top 25, and most overall advanced stats actually point to that. When you combine that with his peak abilities--aka, able to drop 50 on possibly any team in history and being one of the best ISO players ever while also being an elite shooter, I'd say his peak value is probably top 10 on his best day. That part's subjective, but we can't act like he didn't average 25/6 on 30% usage rate and 58 TS%. That's all NBA level offense.

[Black Jack]

Elite ability to create your own shot in pressure situations against championship level defense is a rare gift. I think it's less needed / useful in the regular season where teams aren't clamping down so hard and more guys can create shots. But only so many guys can face up to a defense like the 2017 GSW and still prove unguardable, and Kyrie is clearly one of them.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Kyrie averaged 4 assists as in the Finals a POINT GUARD on an elite offensive team.

That's all I need to know about him to know hes not a top 5 player.

All he knows how to do is ISO scoring. Theres a reason Cleveland is the worst team in the NBA when LeBron is off the floor.

[RingsDontLie]

Absolutely fantastic ISO player. Not a great team ball player.

Funny I thought MJ was an iso player ...but let's compare Kyrie to Jordan's 1998 finals...

Kyre 29ppg, 47% FG, 5 assists
Jordan 33.3ppg, 42% FG, 2 assists

Kyrie's is actually a bit more efficient. Take away the ghost call jordan fouls and jordan has less points too.

[halfHAVOC]

Kyrie can drop 30 ppg but he's a huge liability on defense, he gives up so many points by his lack of defensive IQ that it just doesn't make his overall impact on the game as significant as say a guy like Curry who isn't a great defender but at least he plays solid help D and knows the rotations and also will chase the guy he's guarding. Also a guy like James Harden who doesn't play defense but he's a way better playmaker than Kyrie, getting his teammates involved etc. To me Kyrie is just more of a volume scorer he doesn't impact the game positively in other ways that other PG's like Lillard, Cp3, Wall, Westbrook etc do.

[Baseline Runner]

Kyrie can drop 30 ppg but he's a huge liability on defense, he gives up so many points by his lack of defensive IQ that it just doesn't make his overall impact on the game as significant as say a guy like Curry who isn't a great defender but at least he plays solid help D and knows the rotations and also will chase the guy he's guarding. Also a guy like James Harden who doesn't play defense but he's a way better playmaker than Kyrie, getting his teammates involved etc. To me Kyrie is just more of a volume scorer he doesn't impact the game positively in other ways that other PG's like Lillard, Cp3, Wall, Westbrook etc do.

Volume scorers are not efficient, Kyrie scores at volume and is efficient. That means he's an elite scorer in the league, maybe top 5 scorer and top 15 player overall. So basically you can classify him as a SG since shooting guards primary job is to score and shoot. And averaging 5-6 APG for a shooting guard is pretty damn good too. Another underrated aspect of Kyrie is that he rarely turns the ball over for how much he handles it. That's why he's so good in the clutch or when the shot clock is running down because you can give him the ball and you know he won't turn the ball over, get trapped or make a bad play, he'll get a quality shot up 9/10 (or set someone else up with a quality shot). That is a huge skill and probably better than any player in the league. Those all time great handles mean something.

[bluemj32]

I'd still take Cp3 over him. As others have stated, his Bball IQ for being a pg is not there. He's really a two gurad in a pg body.
He doesn't make his teammates better.
He had this same struggle before LeBron came back to Cleveland. Once he learns to do this more he will climb the rankings.


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[desi tmac91]

Kyrie is so criminally underrated and underappreciated. Everyone's still attributing it to the "Lebron factor," implying that any other decent PG in the league would score 38 and 40 points in back to back finals games simply coz he got Lebron as teammate. He utterly outplayed Curry, outscoring him 40 to 14, and people even barely talk about it. If it was the other way around there probably would be at least 5 threads about it. You'd think that after last year's finals, where Kyrie stood toe-to-toe against the 2x MVP, that people would start giving Irving the recognition he deserves, but the truth is by the time the next season starts, there will yet again be another Kyrie vs Lowry debate instead of comparing him against the likes of Curry, Westbrook or Wall.

The problem is that Kyrie is caught between two sides.

The one side is that he simply doesn't possess the gravity that Curry brings to a team on a nightly basis. We all know that from the moment that he crosses half court, he is a threat to bomb from deep. It's the reason why CLE traps him so high, hedges so hard on PnR, and plays physical with him. They are trying to do everything that they can to inhibit the ease with which he can make 3s at an extremely high volume. Kyrie is good but he doesn't have the type of draw nor the ability to open the floor for others that Steph does.

The other side is actually the more compelling one. There is a large contingent of LBJ supporters that need to prop up the narrative that LeBron has the midas touch; any garbage he plays with turns into gold. And by box score measurements and a surface analysis of the game, it would appear to be true.

However, most people honestly do not understand that it isn't easy being LeBron's teammate, especially one as talented as Kyrie.

There is a sacrifice to one's personal game that you have to make in order to play with him. Yes, you do get the benefit of playing in a near elite offensive system, but it surely isn't a democratic one.

LBJ plays free safety on defense which helps him reach rebounding totals very quickly. He brings the ball up, initiates the offense, beats his man off the dribble, and gives you the ball so that you can shoot a 3. (This obviously racks up the assists.) The only time another player runs sets is when LBJ doesn't feel like doing it. Because of this, he will always have tremendous box score numbers. Simply by the nature of running with LBJ, it would be much harder for anyone to put up great numbers consistently considering that plays aren't designed to be run through them often.

Bosh and Wade underwent the same treatment over time. Bosh warned Love ahead of time, yet Love didn't understand it until he experienced himself.

On one hand, you need to attribute it to LBJ's greatness that he is almost always a mismatch when he has the ball in his hands, and thus you can regularly expect the defense to collapse when he inevitably beats his man off the dribble or in PnR.

At the same time, LeBron's teammates are all marginalized in the sense that by letting LBJ do everything, his teammates can't do all that they may want to do. For some like JR, Shumpert, and Korver, it's great because he enables you to just focus on your strengths. But for guys like Wade, Bosh, Love, and Kyrie, it's very tough because you know that you can do so much more, but you're sort of being forced to primarily become just a shooter. They're not really allowed to showcase their strengths as much as they'd like because it doesn't go with the LBJ system. Thus, they're often critiqued for not flourishing in a role that they were never really designed to play in.

Players who are or could be developed into greater talents are by design reduced to shooters. And shooters know that completely wide open in-game shots are actually not easy to hit, since they usually aren't rhythm shots.

The hardest part of the play, which is making the shot, falls on his teammates. LBJ has some of the best spot up shooters surrounding him but it goes to show that it's very hard to always show up on demand like that, especially when you're not allowed to get into your own rhythm.

LBJ kills two birds with one stone with the system that his teams run. He generates all of the action (hence why we don't often see too many hockey assists from them) and can put up fantastic numbers, but his teammates have to be elite marksmen all of the time which is impossible for any one to do. By nature of LBJ's greatness but also by design of the system, his better teammates (who aren't 3&D players by nature) are essentially setup to always come up short.



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Amazing post. I have held the same opinions since the late 2000's but never have been able to post it as eloquently as this. His stats from LeBron ball also make him completely protected from any blame. Harden has this same problem when he's in ISO mode in the 4th. That isn't to say they aren't awesome and talented players though.