Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...Celtics record 10-2 Cavs 5-6..MVP year

[Commodor]

This threads a joke.

I'd take Leonard, AD, harden, Westbrook and Giannis 100/100 and that's before I mention lebron and the dubs.

Defense matters. Threads like this just expose posters who don't understand that simple concept.

[G35]

Kyrie is an extremely potent scorer but not much else. Having Lebron on his team taking the primary role as playmaker means Irving doesn't have to worry about anything other than putting the ball through the net. If Irving didn't have Lebron on his team and he was the best player on said team, they'd be a low seed that can't get into the 2nd round.

Lebron is the only reason Irving is in the position to put on a scoring exhibition in the Finals.

It's these kind of statements why certain players do not feel appreciated for what they do.

Let's compare a team to a family. You have a mother, children, father, uncle, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers, cousins. Each family member plays a role.

Going to use stereotype's but they can be switched so people do not feel offended:

Father's - breadwinner, does yardwork, fixes/washes the cars, does maintenance around the house
Mother's - breadwinner, cooks meals, laundry, interior decorating

Mothers/Fathers are the stars of the team, they provide most of the heavy lifting and leadership in the family unit. Now just because the father may make more money and can fix things around the house does not make him the most important person in the family. Or just because the mother provides all the cooking in the house doesn't make her the most indispensable member. The other members of the family may provide elements that may be singular or focused in one area but are necessary for the success of the family.

This is how it looks from the outside is that Kyrie and Lebron are the mother/father of the Cavs but because Lebron makes more money, or can do more things that he would be able to run the family just as well without Kyrie's contributions. We all know that is incorrect. As is it is for all families. The problem is this family does not work as well as the Warrior family, so then Kyrie get's nitpicked for everything that he does not do like Steph Curry. Yet, Lebron remains uncriticized for not being able to create a family that works as well together as other families i.e. the Spurs family, the Warriors family.

We see the success that other families have when they all are working together contributing relatively equally, but when only one or two family members are contributing and the rest of the family is sitting on the couch watching.....then the whole family suffers......

[Duke4life831]

This threads a joke.

I'd take Leonard, AD, harden, Westbrook and Giannis 100/100 and that's before I mention lebron and the dubs.

Defense matters. Threads like this just expose posters who don't understand that simple concept.

I agree with all those guys before Kyrie. But you kind of lost me when you say defense matters and you have Harden's and Westbrook's name listed.

[Commodor]

This threads a joke.

I'd take Leonard, AD, harden, Westbrook and Giannis 100/100 and that's before I mention lebron and the dubs.

Defense matters. Threads like this just expose posters who don't understand that simple concept.

I agree with all those guys before Kyrie. But you kind of lost me when you say defense matters and you have Harden's and Westbrook's name listed.

Hahah well definitely a fair point. But they do have superior offensive output at this point. All 3 are pretty even defensively.

[RingsDontLie]

This threads a joke.

I'd take Leonard, AD, harden, Westbrook and Giannis 100/100 and that's before I mention lebron and the dubs.

Defense matters. Threads like this just expose posters who don't understand that simple concept.

I agree with all those guys before Kyrie. But you kind of lost me when you say defense matters and you have Harden's and Westbrook's name listed.

This. The double standard is strong here. Westbrook and Harden don't play defense at all. Kyrie stopped Curry to the point where he at least outscored him per game in the NBA finals. This is the second season in a row where he has out done Curry. This isn't 1st round, this isn't 2nd round, this is the NBA finals against a potent GSW defensive team where he has done this twice.

If anything Kyrie is making Lebron better. Remember Lebron didn't get a ring until he joined a potent wing scorer like Wade.

[Commodor]

This threads a joke.

I'd take Leonard, AD, harden, Westbrook and Giannis 100/100 and that's before I mention lebron and the dubs.

Defense matters. Threads like this just expose posters who don't understand that simple concept.

I agree with all those guys before Kyrie. But you kind of lost me when you say defense matters and you have Harden's and Westbrook's name listed.

This. The double standard is strong here. Westbrook and Harden don't play defense at all. Kyrie stopped Curry to the point where he at least outscored him per game in the NBA finals. This is the second season in a row where he has out done Curry. This isn't 1st round, this isn't 2nd round, this is the NBA finals against a potent GSW defensive team where he has done this twice.

If anything Kyrie is making Lebron better. Remember Lebron didn't get a ring until he joined a potent wing scorer like Wade.

Oh please, put Westbrook and harden with lebron and I'm much more worried about a finals match up. Kyrie is a great player but he's pretty much a pure scorer who makes a living on drives.

He doesn't have half the gravity of curry around the 3point line. Mucking it up for Lebron inside.

He Isn't a particularly good assist guy. Sure he's better than average, but I don't think he's any better than curry (whos not particularly impressive either).

Curry averaged how many steals per game this year? He Has led the league in that stat before. He's no tony Allen but curry>>kyrie on D plain and simple.

But if you want to consider kyrie beating curry last year in the finals, then Curry absolutely SLAUGHTERED kyrie the year before. Oh injuries? Yeah, lock it up, curry played 1/2 the playoffs last year and toughed the finals out anyways.

But you brought up curry, not me. I'm just trying to say that I can name 5 non-warrior/lebron players who are better. And you pretty much confirmed by not fighting westbrook and harden are better.

[Commodor]

This threads a joke.

I'd take Leonard, AD, harden, Westbrook and Giannis 100/100 and that's before I mention lebron and the dubs.

Defense matters. Threads like this just expose posters who don't understand that simple concept.

I agree with all those guys before Kyrie. But you kind of lost me when you say defense matters and you have Harden's and Westbrook's name listed.

This. The double standard is strong here. Westbrook and Harden don't play defense at all. Kyrie stopped Curry to the point where he at least outscored him per game in the NBA finals. This is the second season in a row where he has out done Curry. This isn't 1st round, this isn't 2nd round, this is the NBA finals against a potent GSW defensive team where he has done this twice.

If anything Kyrie is making Lebron better. Remember Lebron didn't get a ring until he joined a potent wing scorer like Wade.

But yes kyrie outscored curry. When kyrie was getting defended by Klay and curry was getting guarded by 2 players every play. Congrats!

[RingsDontLie]

I agree with all those guys before Kyrie. But you kind of lost me when you say defense matters and you have Harden's and Westbrook's name listed.

This. The double standard is strong here. Westbrook and Harden don't play defense at all. Kyrie stopped Curry to the point where he at least outscored him per game in the NBA finals. This is the second season in a row where he has out done Curry. This isn't 1st round, this isn't 2nd round, this is the NBA finals against a potent GSW defensive team where he has done this twice.

If anything Kyrie is making Lebron better. Remember Lebron didn't get a ring until he joined a potent wing scorer like Wade.

Oh please, put Westbrook and harden with lebron and I'm much more worried about a finals match up. Kyrie is a great player but he's pretty much a pure scorer who makes a living on drives.

He doesn't have half the gravity of curry around the 3point line. Mucking it up for Lebron inside.

He Isn't a particularly good assist guy. Sure he's better than average, but I don't think he's any better than curry (whos not particularly impressive either).

Curry averaged how many steals per game this year? He Has led the league in that stat before. He's no tony Allen but curry>>kyrie on D plain and simple.

But if you want to consider kyrie beating curry last year in the finals, then Curry absolutely SLAUGHTERED kyrie the year before. Oh injuries? Yeah, lock it up, curry played 1/2 the playoffs last year and toughed the finals out anyways.

But you brought up curry, not me. I'm just trying to say that I can name 5 non-warrior/lebron players who are better. And you pretty much confirmed by not fighting westbrook and harden are better.

Funny you say that, when Kyrie had a higher 3 point percentage in these finals, and the last finals than Curry. Give me Kyrie over Curry in any playoff situation. Give me someone cutthroat that isn't afraid to drive into the teeth of a high caliber defense of Golden State. Those guys win games. What happened when Kyrie got 40...they won game 4. I'd take Kyrie over Curry in a playoff situation easily. You are not losing much if at all in the defense department either.

[Duke4life831]

I agree with all those guys before Kyrie. But you kind of lost me when you say defense matters and you have Harden's and Westbrook's name listed.

This. The double standard is strong here. Westbrook and Harden don't play defense at all. Kyrie stopped Curry to the point where he at least outscored him per game in the NBA finals. This is the second season in a row where he has out done Curry. This isn't 1st round, this isn't 2nd round, this is the NBA finals against a potent GSW defensive team where he has done this twice.

If anything Kyrie is making Lebron better. Remember Lebron didn't get a ring until he joined a potent wing scorer like Wade.

But if you want to consider kyrie beating curry last year in the finals, then Curry absolutely SLAUGHTERED kyrie the year before. Oh injuries? Yeah, lock it up, curry played 1/2 the playoffs last year and toughed the finals out anyways.

What? The year before Kyrie only played 1 game and he scored 23 points to Curry's 26.

Kyrie's stats that game was 23/7/6 on 10/22 shooting

Curry's stats that game was 26/4/8 on 10/20 shooting.

How is that Curry slaughtering Kyrie?

[Pelly24]

I question why Kyrie can't win a game without Lebron or why Lebron can't take a minute rest without the team shifting momentum to the other side. Mostly I blame this on the coach but since Kyrie is always out there when LeBron is not his rep takes a hit as well. Instead of taking the opportunity to get his he should be questioning how to make his team mates better. I have a feeling people will be saying he's only 25, only 26, only 27 for the rest of his career with no improvement. I hope he proves me wrong.

Steph on Cleveland - anyone that tries to use steph like they use Kyrie would need to be fired. Mark Jackson did which is why he is calling games rather than coaching them. It takes more than natural talent to become a top 10 player.

Kyrie on Warriors - the only thing that piques my interest about this is watching draymond go postal every time he iso'd more than two possessions in a row. Took Durant a minute to break this habit. Oh and that dribbling LOL. Kyrie would be great for draymond enthusiasts.

BBIQ? Doesn't seem particularly high. thanks to kyrie I'm enjoying my birthday and not even thinking about a possible game 7. That sequence where he blew off his screener and then proceeded to dribble out the 2 for 1 possibility was my favorite cavs play of the series.

And before I hear about Steph's stacked team, warriors have made playoffs 5 straight years. They just didn't pop up out of nowhere with 3 allstars and win a championship.

I wonder about that too, but I don't think that's all on Kyrie. Sometimes, Kevin Love isn't even on the floor with Kyrie, and when he's not, you're looking at Kyrie plus a bunch of role players who can only hit open shots. He gets tristan thompson shots, but the guy isn't too skilled. JR is wild inconsistent. DWill (both) Korver, SHUMp, etc., are all completely hit or miss. There's a reason all of these guys were discarded the way they were. We've still yet to ever see Kyrie with a team built around his strength. LeBron is a GOAT and doesn't need much, but he's got amazing spacing to conform to his style of play and an elite ISO point guard to do the close quarters scoring he doesn't always have the energy to do. Accomodations for Kyrie would be a ballhandling forward that can sort of run an offense and a legit rim-protecting center--and maybe at least one other person on the court that can dribble the damn basketball.


As for Kyrie on the Warriors...I think you're forgetting that Kyrie is also an elite[i] three point shooter, either off the catch or off the dribble. That, and Draymond can effectively run the offense for him, and there are all sorts of legit help defenders on the court to save steph a bit from the onslaught of elite PG scorers. There's even been rim protection. I see no reason why Kyrie couldn't put up 26/6 on 48/42/91 with an improved defensive rating on GSW. Steph's a way better player and is a much better defender, but this team's been constructed perfectly around him over the last eight years. Kyrie lacks steph's feel for the game and passing ability (the two biggest differences between them IMO), but also, with Kyrie's elite ISO ability and ability to be a one man fastbreak, he's got some scoring advantages Steph doesn't. Let me put it this way; Steph has shot well-below his percentages during each of the NBA finals between 2k15-2k17. Consider that outside of LeBron, cleveland doesn't really even have one defender you could consider above average. Kyrie, meanwhile, is defended by Klay, Draymond, KD, Iggy, etc., and shot above his percentages or right at them every time out. And notice the fairly low freethrow rate. That's because GSW is so good at defense, they don't even have to foul him. It's just that Kyrie is so incredibly dynamic with the ball, he's practically unguardable. So while I'd say Curry's a better player, Kyrie's a mini-Kobe Bryant in terms of skill, except he's also a top 5 shooter in the NBA.

[brannigan73]

This guy isn't a top 20 player. Young players like Joel Embiid and Nikola Jokic are more valuable we don't have to get into the 20+ established stars that are more valuable. Raw numbers are meaningless there are sophisticated +/- stats and they tell us that Kyrie is nowhere near a top 5 player in the league his effect on the game is just not that positive compared to others. He is a talented scorer but he makes no one else better and plays bad defense.

[Wooderson]

Kyrie doesn't even attempt to make the game easier for others. He gets his and leaves the rest to LeBron (even when LeBrons off the court). I think his assist numbers overstate his playmaking ability as many of his assists are last second kick outs after being stonewalled on his 1st and 2nd attempts to create for himself. No semblance whatsoever of how to control the game (reminiscent of Brandon Knight, basically the anti-Conley).

Also seriously question his BBIQ. Last year in game 7 he nearly turned the ball over trying to drive in the most obvious run the clock down scenario. And this year he does the exact opposite, completely blowing the obvious 2 for 1 and basically dooming the Cavs after bricking the step back 3. Lue should have called a TO there but I don't think Kyrie even thought about the situation which is pretty concerning.

Incredibly talented and a joy to watch when hes on but I really question what his impact would be without LeBron.

[udfa]

"Not even close to a top 25 player overall." yeah, that's just a joke. I'd say he's comfortably in the top 25, and most overall advanced stats actually point to that. When you combine that with his peak abilities--aka, able to drop 50 on possibly any team in history and being one of the best ISO players ever while also being an elite shooter, I'd say his peak value is probably top 10 on his best day. That part's subjective, but we can't act like he didn't average 25/6 on 30% usage rate and 58 TS%. That's all NBA level offense.

I'm not sure about the "most advanced stats point to [Kyrie being a Top-25 overall player]." For the 2017 regular season, he does barely get there in WS at #23 (8.9), but his WS/48 was #34 at .170 (among players with at least 1000 minutes), RPM was #53 (+2.05) and BPM #49 (+2.5). All those numbers got worse in the playoffs. The reason is pretty obvious: he is a terrible defensive player. It really handcuffs his overall value. Many are under the mistaken impression that Curry is a bad defender (among starting PGs, he is at worst average and IMO a little above average), but if Kyrie was even as serviceable on D as Curry, he really would be a Top-25 player by a comfortable margin.

Kyrie is a all time great scorer at PG. In everything else, he ranges somewhere between average and very bad when compared to all starting PGs in the league today. On the plus side, I think his game will age surprisingly well. Even when he starts to decline physically (I think I get why he's called Uncle Drew now, he looks so very old right up until the point when he pulls off some ridiculous move or finish while looking like he could do it any time he wants), there's not much more damage he can do to his own team defensively. He could get to be Isaiah Thomas bad on D and that'll cost his team a little more than now, but he should remain a great scorer for a long time.

[elBJ]

Kyrie is an extremely potent scorer but not much else. Having Lebron on his team taking the primary role as playmaker means Irving doesn't have to worry about anything other than putting the ball through the net. If Irving didn't have Lebron on his team and he was the best player on said team, they'd be a low seed that can't get into the 2nd round.

Lebron is the only reason Irving is in the position to put on a scoring exhibition in the Finals.

It's these kind of statements why certain players do not feel appreciated for what they do.

Let's compare a team to a family. You have a mother, children, father, uncle, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers, cousins. Each family member plays a role.

Going to use stereotype's but they can be switched so people do not feel offended:

Father's - breadwinner, does yardwork, fixes/washes the cars, does maintenance around the house
Mother's - breadwinner, cooks meals, laundry, interior decorating

Mothers/Fathers are the stars of the team, they provide most of the heavy lifting and leadership in the family unit. Now just because the father may make more money and can fix things around the house does not make him the most important person in the family. Or just because the mother provides all the cooking in the house doesn't make her the most indispensable member. The other members of the family may provide elements that may be singular or focused in one area but are necessary for the success of the family.

This is how it looks from the outside is that Kyrie and Lebron are the mother/father of the Cavs but because Lebron makes more money, or can do more things that he would be able to run the family just as well without Kyrie's contributions. We all know that is incorrect. As is it is for all families. The problem is this family does not work as well as the Warrior family, so then Kyrie get's nitpicked for everything that he does not do like Steph Curry. Yet, Lebron remains uncriticized for not being able to create a family that works as well together as other families i.e. the Spurs family, the Warriors family.

We see the success that other families have when they all are working together contributing relatively equally, but when only one or two family members are contributing and the rest of the family is sitting on the couch watching.....then the whole family suffers......

I'm pretty sure you misunderstood the statement
to stay in your family, Kyrie does one thing cooking (scoring) and nothing else, he does it really good and the whole family is really happy with the food, although some family members reportedly complain that he does not much else. If Lebron leaves and no one brings in the cash, Kyrie would've to do much more and would struggle to keep his low paid jobs and it would be very questionable he could still cook as good with a heavier workload and less moneys for ingredients.

He is a one dimensional player, a exceptional finisher, but top 5 player overall is just a joke. Top 10 finisher and you maybe got a discussion.

[GrandTheftRondo]

This threads a joke.

I'd take Leonard, AD, harden, Westbrook and Giannis 100/100 and that's before I mention lebron and the dubs.

Defense matters. Threads like this just expose posters who don't understand that simple concept.

Not just defence actually. Being able to create for others, rebound, play off the ball etc. Kyrie is good at none of these things.

He's a guy who can get buckets. That's it.

Isaiah did this all season in a team without LeBron and was constantly **** on for being a one way player, overrated etc. Yet when Irving does it with less efficiency and next to probably the 2nd best player ever he's amazing, almost as good as Curry, top 5 player you name it.

Absolutely ridiculous. All the top 25 players in the league would kill to play in the finals next to LeBron. Using Irving's finals performances to prop him up is absolutely ridiculous, acting like he's the sole reason they're in the finals. You put a number of different players next to LeBron in the finals and they put up numbers.

[Hello Brooklyn]

This threads a joke.

I'd take Leonard, AD, harden, Westbrook and Giannis 100/100 and that's before I mention lebron and the dubs.

Defense matters. Threads like this just expose posters who don't understand that simple concept.

I agree with all those guys before Kyrie. But you kind of lost me when you say defense matters and you have Harden's and Westbrook's name listed.

This. The double standard is strong here. Westbrook and Harden don't play defense at all. Kyrie stopped Curry to the point where he at least outscored him per game in the NBA finals. This is the second season in a row where he has out done Curry. This isn't 1st round, this isn't 2nd round, this is the NBA finals against a potent GSW defensive team where he has done this twice.

If anything Kyrie is making Lebron better. Remember Lebron didn't get a ring until he joined a potent wing scorer like Wade.

A complete fantasy made up by Kyrie fan boys.

Show me one advanced stat which shows Kyrie had any type of impact defensively. Or even any tangible evidence.

Westbrook is way better. Harden is also bad but still not as terrible as him.

There is a reason that the Cavs become one of the worst team in the NBA when LeBron is off the floor.

[Hello Brooklyn]

This. The double standard is strong here. Westbrook and Harden don't play defense at all. Kyrie stopped Curry to the point where he at least outscored him per game in the NBA finals. This is the second season in a row where he has out done Curry. This isn't 1st round, this isn't 2nd round, this is the NBA finals against a potent GSW defensive team where he has done this twice.

If anything Kyrie is making Lebron better. Remember Lebron didn't get a ring until he joined a potent wing scorer like Wade.

Oh please, put Westbrook and harden with lebron and I'm much more worried about a finals match up. Kyrie is a great player but he's pretty much a pure scorer who makes a living on drives.

He doesn't have half the gravity of curry around the 3point line. Mucking it up for Lebron inside.

He Isn't a particularly good assist guy. Sure he's better than average, but I don't think he's any better than curry (whos not particularly impressive either).

Curry averaged how many steals per game this year? He Has led the league in that stat before. He's no tony Allen but curry>>kyrie on D plain and simple.

But if you want to consider kyrie beating curry last year in the finals, then Curry absolutely SLAUGHTERED kyrie the year before. Oh injuries? Yeah, lock it up, curry played 1/2 the playoffs last year and toughed the finals out anyways.

But you brought up curry, not me. I'm just trying to say that I can name 5 non-warrior/lebron players who are better. And you pretty much confirmed by not fighting westbrook and harden are better.

Funny you say that, when Kyrie had a higher 3 point percentage in these finals, and the last finals than Curry. Give me Kyrie over Curry in any playoff situation. Give me someone cutthroat that isn't afraid to drive into the teeth of a high caliber defense of Golden State. Those guys win games. What happened when Kyrie got 40...they won game 4. I'd take Kyrie over Curry in a playoff situation easily. You are not losing much if at all in the defense department either.

Again, completely misleading and useless.

Steph was averaging 48% from 3 over the first couple of games

Then the Cavaliers started doubling him and now allowing him to have a single open look from 3.

How many open 3s did Kyrie get throughout the Finals?

What happened when Kyrie got 38 in Game 3?

Oh wait they choked spectacularly and Kyrie missed a wide open jump shot to win the game. LOL

[GrandTheftRondo]

This threads a joke.

I'd take Leonard, AD, harden, Westbrook and Giannis 100/100 and that's before I mention lebron and the dubs.

Defense matters. Threads like this just expose posters who don't understand that simple concept.

I agree with all those guys before Kyrie. But you kind of lost me when you say defense matters and you have Harden's and Westbrook's name listed.

This. The double standard is strong here. Westbrook and Harden don't play defense at all. Kyrie stopped Curry to the point where he at least outscored him per game in the NBA finals. This is the second season in a row where he has out done Curry. This isn't 1st round, this isn't 2nd round, this is the NBA finals against a potent GSW defensive team where he has done this twice.

If anything Kyrie is making Lebron better. Remember Lebron didn't get a ring until he joined a potent wing scorer like Wade.

Lmao. Your agenda is hilarious.

I'm convinced you and other Kyrie fanboys haven't even watched the finals the last three years. The Cavs are the only team in the league that constantly traps Curry on every pick and roll the Warriors run (which is a lot). It forces the ball out of Curry's hands as he has teammates wide open. Hence why Durant got so many easy looks in the finals. Kyrie almost never ever has defended Curry one on one in any of these finals.

If the Warriors defend Kyrie like that, he'd be awful in the finals with his average to below average game control and playmaking abilities. They can't though because the Cavs would just give it to LeBron more and that makes for a much tougher time for the Warriors.

When are you and other fanboys going to realise the Warriors want Kyrie to go one one one offensively? Hence why he has these huge games against them. It doesn't matter because he gets nobody else involved and can backfire, like in game 3.

[BloodNinja]

Wait...so Kyrie is better than Curry and LBJ is better than Durant and the Cavs still got smoked?

[HurricaneKid]

Absolutely fantastic ISO player. Not a great team ball player.

Funny I thought MJ was an iso player ...but let's compare Kyrie to Jordan's 1998 finals...

Kyre 29ppg, 47% FG, 5 assists
Jordan 33.3ppg, 42% FG, 2 assists

Kyrie's is actually a bit more efficient. Take away the ghost call jordan fouls and jordan has less points too.

Fun with statistics:

In the 98 Finals the teams averaged 84.1 ppg. In the 2017 Finals the teams averaged 118.4. That is an increase 40.9%.

In the 97 Finals the Bulls had a TS% of .510 and the Jazz had .501. In the 17 Finals the Warriors shot .595TS% and the Cavs shot .568.

Comparing those stat lines is pretty poor analysis. MJ shot (TS%) better than either team. Kyrie's TS% was well below BOTH teams.