UFC Fight Night 112: Chiesa vs. Lee (6/25/17)

[Jasen777]

Also, what a sad, new low Penn. I was hoping he'd win just so he might finally convince himself to retire. I'm not sure there's anyone on the roster he can beat anymore.

He did decent for two rounds, even got a knockdown. Granted, not against the a top opponent, and by the third round he had nothing.
But you forget C.M. Punk is on the roster. And maybe he could bet some Latin America TUF guys.

[RalphWiggum]

If Mario doesn't step in I'm 95% confident Chiesa is asleep or tapping inside 5 seconds.

With that said it's still a horrible stoppage. Him being out for a few extra seconds is no real danger. He's been reffing long enough to know that he should've let things play out. It's not justified like jumping in a couple seconds early to stop a hammer fist to a semi conscious opponent.

[High 5]

Also, what a sad, new low Penn. I was hoping he'd win just so he might finally convince himself to retire. I'm not sure there's anyone on the roster he can beat anymore.

He did decent for two rounds, even got a knockdown. Granted, not against the a top opponent, and by the third round he had nothing.
But you forget C.M. Punk is on the roster. And maybe he could bet some Latin America TUF guys.

He did decent for two rounds against a 38-year-old who hadn't fought in 2 years and then he got thoroughly dominated in the 3rd. He made Siver look like a young stud in that round.

[NO-KG-AI]

That stoppage is ridiculous though. Kish just got out of an even deeper one just a few fights ago. Where is the line drawn if we're now stopping fights because a submission MIGHT finish it?

As for Penn, not only does he not look like a legend anymore, he doesn't look like a guy who got old and slow, he looks like an old and slow guy who never knew how to fight in the first place. Weird how age effects some guys.

[Bernman]

Also, what a sad, new low Penn. I was hoping he'd win just so he might finally convince himself to retire. I'm not sure there's anyone on the roster he can beat anymore.

He did decent for two rounds, even got a knockdown. Granted, not against the a top opponent, and by the third round he had nothing.
But you forget C.M. Punk is on the roster. And maybe he could bet some Latin America TUF guys.

He did decent for two rounds against a 38-year-old who hadn't fought in 2 years and then he got thoroughly dominated in the 3rd. He made Siver look like a young stud in that round.

Physically, I'm not sure Siver looked different. He stays in good shape.

He looked as technical as he always does. He's a pretty technical guy. His problem has been when he has to give up reach, which he didn't really against Penn. Otherwise, when he doesn't have to face a particularly high-level wrestler, which Penn never has been.

I don't think that fight was an embarrassment for B.J. (actually looked better than he had recently), and didn't suggest he couldn't still beat the bottom to about middle of the roster. But that's not who he's going to fight because of his name, and regardless he shouldn't be fighting anyone given the damage he's accrued in his career. Time to hang it up for that reason, and also if you care how people remember you.

[Headliner]

BJ has gone 1-7-1 in the last 7 years....there is no reason for him to continu, or for the UFC to have him continue.

[cowboyronnie]

Hi arms didn't go limp. This isn't a situation where he was taking 10 extra headshots after being KOed, the ref didn't have to err on the side of caution in order to save him from anything except for possibly going to sleep and he's face up so no danger of the choke being applied for a long time after naptime. The hand fighting is pretty much moot at that point, its about turning towards the choke.

Did you guys watch the Kish/Herrig fight? That RNC was even more locked on than what Lee had and obviously if the ref had stopped it then you would be making the same argument.

Lee is almost as big a victim as Chiesa in this situation.

They appeared to go limp for a moment. It's a situation where the ref is going to have to leap in at only a moment's appearance. "****, he's out", the ref has to jump in. If he's struck with that thought, he has to act. He can't double check, "...But is he REALLY out?". MC's hands flopped for a split second long enough that Yamasaki might have been struck by the thought that Chiesa was out.

It's unfortunate but also predictable. So, if you're a fighter and you want to ensure 100% it never happens to you, don't get into a position where you're in a deep choke with little defensive opportunity while also not displaying tons of cogency. That's not unreasonable. Essentially: don't get to the verge of finished and, if you do, show lots of life.

Incidentally: I saw that Kish choke. Unbelievable that she survived.

[cowboyronnie]

That stoppage is ridiculous though. Kish just got out of an even deeper one just a few fights ago. Where is the line drawn if we're now stopping fights because a submission MIGHT finish it?

As for Penn, not only does he not look like a legend anymore, he doesn't look like a guy who got old and slow, he looks like an old and slow guy who never knew how to fight in the first place. Weird how age effects some guys.

Kish's was deeper but there was no moment where she looked to go out. Refs should not stop fights because chokes are deep but refs have to be quick on the trigger when a fighter looks to go out. Their criterion for jumping in has to be set super sensitive, there is no other choice. It's impossible to have a reflex that is also reflective.

[AirCanadaMouse]

I hope Lee gets his Khabib wish BTW. I just don't think you could/should give Khabib Tony or Conor next.

The problem is.... the Khabib - Tony fight HAS to happen for the sake of the division. Since Conor has held this whole division up, it has no where to go. Those two need to fight each other for this division to have a clear contender/champion. The Lee - Barboza fight makes most sense right now. I really hope they don't do a rematch but I know it's bound to happen on the Detroit card. Even if they put off Tony - Khabib right now, that fight will need to happen down the road.

[AirCanadaMouse]

Also not sure if you guys watched the MMA hour, but Kevin Lee had said that Kish was in a different choke that was less threatening to make someone "pass out", but that Lee had a different grip to his which will make someone go limp. Either way, you have to let the fighter decide if he wants to pass out or tap out. You can't just step in.

The only time you step in and stop a fight during a submission is if something is broken. .

[lilfishi22]

That stoppage is ridiculous though. Kish just got out of an even deeper one just a few fights ago. Where is the line drawn if we're now stopping fights because a submission MIGHT finish it?

As for Penn, not only does he not look like a legend anymore, he doesn't look like a guy who got old and slow, he looks like an old and slow guy who never knew how to fight in the first place. Weird how age effects some guys.

Kish's was deeper but there was no moment where she looked to go out. Refs should not stop fights because chokes are deep but refs have to be quick on the trigger when a fighter looks to go out. Their criterion for jumping in has to be set super sensitive, there is no other choice. It's impossible to have a reflex that is also reflective.

Kisk was also fighting the choke every second she was in it. To me, Chiesa arms wasn't doing anything, he wasn't trying to turn his head against the choke and Mario had the best view of his eyes to see if he was about to go out.

My only issue with the stoppage is that unlike a TKO or an arm/leg lock, there is no lasting damage to going out to a RNC so Mario should've let it go until it's more definitive.

[REDDzone]

Hi arms didn't go limp. This isn't a situation where he was taking 10 extra headshots after being KOed, the ref didn't have to err on the side of caution in order to save him from anything except for possibly going to sleep and he's face up so no danger of the choke being applied for a long time after naptime. The hand fighting is pretty much moot at that point, its about turning towards the choke.

Did you guys watch the Kish/Herrig fight? That RNC was even more locked on than what Lee had and obviously if the ref had stopped it then you would be making the same argument.

Lee is almost as big a victim as Chiesa in this situation.

They appeared to go limp for a moment. It's a situation where the ref is going to have to leap in at only a moment's appearance. "****, he's out", the ref has to jump in. If he's struck with that thought, he has to act. He can't double check, "...But is he REALLY out?". MC's hands flopped for a split second long enough that Yamasaki might have been struck by the thought that Chiesa was out.

It's unfortunate but also predictable. So, if you're a fighter and you want to ensure 100% it never happens to you, don't get into a position where you're in a deep choke with little defensive opportunity while also not displaying tons of cogency. That's not unreasonable. Essentially: don't get to the verge of finished and, if you do, show lots of life.

Incidentally: I saw that Kish choke. Unbelievable that she survived.

Its a face up choke its not like a guillotine or something where the head is concealed. He literally could have stopped the fight one second after he went out (or when he tapped) instead of while he was still awake. This is assuming Lee would finished otherwise. I didn't notice in his last fight's but he rebutted the criticism about being on the wrong side by saying he has finished previous fights from that side before.

[REDDzone]

Also not sure if you guys watched the MMA hour, but Kevin Lee had said that Kish was in a different choke that was less threatening to make someone "pass out", but that Lee had a different grip to his which will make someone go limp. Either way, you have to let the fighter decide if he wants to pass out or tap out. You can't just step in.

The only time you step in and stop a fight during a submission is if something is broken. .

He's trying to say that Kish was in a wind choke as opposed to the blood choke he had on Chiesa. I didn't think so watching it live but obviously they were moving around a lot more, etc. I would have to see it again.

[Nemesis21]

BJ has gone 1-7-1 in the last 7 years....there is no reason for him to continu, or for the UFC to have him continue.

Agreed, Penn was my favorite fighter for a long time. It's pretty sad to see him fight in the past 7 years.

[REDDzone]

Yamasaki's defense of his stoppage is just bizarre and honestly just shows that he shouldn't be reffing and probably even empowers Chiesa's appeal:

He said Chiesa went to sleep from the choke and then cites his own 5th degree black belt as evidence. LOL. He says he is the only one who knows because he is the only one who was in there.

They should take HD cameras to the next UFC event so us fans can catch a glimpse of what's going on as well.

[Jasen777]

Yamasaki's defense of his stoppage is just bizarre and honestly just shows that he shouldn't be reffing and probably even empowers Chiesa's appeal:

He said Chiesa went to sleep from the choke and then cites his own 5th degree black belt as evidence. LOL. He says he is the only one who knows because he is the only one who was in there.

They should take HD cameras to the next UFC event so us fans can catch a glimpse of what's going on as well.

MMA is a very hard sport to ref. I'd have some respect for him if he was just like "yes, I probably stopped it a second early".

[REDDzone]

I feel like if he said Chiesa had stopped defending himself that's one thing. But for him to say Chiesa was sleeping is just ridiculous. I think that gives ammo to Chiesa's appeal because if the ref is claiming he stopped the fight on the grounds that Chiesa was sleeping and Chiesa clearly wasn't sleeping, then...well probably nothing because these appeals never work but still.

[lilfishi22]

I still feel like Yamasaki is getting more heat than he should. There are far worse early stoppages than this and in my eyes, Chiesa had stopped defending and was microseconds away from going out. I just feel like things are blown way out of proportion. Would Chiesa have been safe physically if Yamasaki had left him in that choke an extra few seconds for some finality for the fans? Sure. But I really don't feel like anyone is debating whether the conclusion would've been different and we're talking maybe a second, a second and a half of action/inaction.

If he had been fighting the choke, still looked like he wasn't going to get out and was stopped at that point, I'd have more of an issue because at least he's showing he's still in it. But he had stopped fighting and was real close to going out (if he wasn't already out) and Yamasaki was right there to stop it. I don't think it would've hurt if Yamasaki had left the fight to go on for an extra second or two for finality but he didn't change the outcome of the fight and in my view, that's the main thing.

[REDDzone]

I still feel like Yamasaki is getting more heat than he should. There are far worse early stoppages than this and in my eyes, Chiesa had stopped defending and was microseconds away from going out. I just feel like things are blown way out of proportion. Would Chiesa have been safe physically if Yamasaki had left him in that choke an extra few seconds for some finality for the fans? Sure. But I really don't feel like anyone is debating whether the conclusion would've been different and we're talking maybe a second, a second and a half of action/inaction.

If he had been fighting the choke, still looked like he wasn't going to get out and was stopped at that point, I'd have more of an issue because at least he's showing he's still in it. But he had stopped fighting and was real close to going out (if he wasn't already out) and Yamasaki was right there to stop it. I don't think it would've hurt if Yamasaki had left the fight to go on for an extra second or two for finality but he didn't change the outcome of the fight and in my view, that's the main thing.

The fact that he thinks Chiesa was sleeping shows he's delusional which actually makes sense in the context of his terrible career.