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TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st

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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#441 » by Mundo » Sun Jul 2, 2017 5:57 am

KGdaBom wrote:
Mundo wrote:Welp, I was a twolves fan due to Rubio. So long board, I think thibs has traded away multiple championships for potentially one.

Have fun cheering for Utah, but I think you will be missing out on some great times with the Wolves.

I would really like to agree, but the last part of the season Rubio was the offense. I see Butler, Wiggins, and Kat having issues with ball movement. Also there isn't a better option at pg. Paying a 31 year old scoring point guard who isn't in a great offensive system isn't a good idea. I wish the wolves the best of luck.
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Re: RE: Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#442 » by KGdaBom » Sun Jul 2, 2017 6:57 am

Mundo wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
Mundo wrote:Welp, I was a twolves fan due to Rubio. So long board, I think thibs has traded away multiple championships for potentially one.

Have fun cheering for Utah, but I think you will be missing out on some great times with the Wolves.

I would really like to agree, but the last part of the season Rubio was the offense. I see Butler, Wiggins, and Kat having issues with ball movement. Also there isn't a better option at pg. Paying a 31 year old scoring point guard who isn't in a great offensive system isn't a good idea. I wish the wolves the best of luck.

Teague is 29. He will do well. Super quick, highly skilled,. Not as good as Ricky but might work out better as a guy butler, KAT and Wiggins can feed.

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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#443 » by minimus » Sun Jul 2, 2017 9:35 am

KGdaBom wrote:
Mundo wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:Have fun cheering for Utah, but I think you will be missing out on some great times with the Wolves.

I would really like to agree, but the last part of the season Rubio was the offense. I see Butler, Wiggins, and Kat having issues with ball movement. Also there isn't a better option at pg. Paying a 31 year old scoring point guard who isn't in a great offensive system isn't a good idea. I wish the wolves the best of luck.

Teague is 29. He will do well. Super quick, highly skilled,. Not as good as Ricky but might work out better as a guy butler, KAT and Wiggins can feed.

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Just to remind, Teague is not a good defender. But he is one of the best pull up shooters in NBA. So this change is not a win win. Thibs got some good offense, but lost some good defense. Let's hope he can create solid defensive group from KAT, Butler, Wiggins and Teague. Now I can see us going for JaMychal Green, James Johnson or Taj Gibson.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#444 » by Joel Embust » Sun Jul 2, 2017 11:03 am

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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#445 » by Don Draper » Sun Jul 2, 2017 1:34 pm

Mundo wrote:Welp, I was a twolves fan due to Rubio. So long board, I think thibs has traded away multiple championships for potentially one.


This is one of the most absurd and emotional responses I've ever seen. If you think Rubio and Teague are the difference between one and multiple championships, then you have a extremely exaggerated perception of just how good he is.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#446 » by KGdaBom » Sun Jul 2, 2017 1:34 pm

minimus wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
Mundo wrote:I would really like to agree, but the last part of the season Rubio was the offense. I see Butler, Wiggins, and Kat having issues with ball movement. Also there isn't a better option at pg. Paying a 31 year old scoring point guard who isn't in a great offensive system isn't a good idea. I wish the wolves the best of luck.

Teague is 29. He will do well. Super quick, highly skilled,. Not as good as Ricky but might work out better as a guy butler, KAT and Wiggins can feed.

Sent from my SM-G900V using RealGM mobile app


Just to remind, Teague is not a good defender. But he is one of the best pull up shooters in NBA. So this change is not a win win. Thibs got some good offense, but lost some good defense. Let's hope he can create solid defensive group from KAT, Butler, Wiggins and Teague. Now I can see us going for JaMychal Green, James Johnson or Taj Gibson.

I'm not a defensive expert, but my understanding is that he is at least average on D and maybe a little above average.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#447 » by natureguy » Sun Jul 2, 2017 1:48 pm

Grits n Gravy wrote:Absolutely gutted to lose Ricky. Losing Zach and Ricky in a week is an absolute kick in the nuts but that's the NBA for you.

Man this pick is going to be 20 at best next year and probably 22-25. Marco freaken Belinelli was traded for a pick in the 20's a year or so ago. This is an awful return for Ricky IMO.


actually its about right, new york was only willing to give us derrick rose that tells you something and according to this poll on realgm we got what hes worth viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1513003. good job thibs
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#448 » by Mundo » Mon Jul 3, 2017 8:24 pm

Don Draper wrote:
Mundo wrote:Welp, I was a twolves fan due to Rubio. So long board, I think thibs has traded away multiple championships for potentially one.


This is one of the most absurd and emotional responses I've ever seen. If you think Rubio and Teague are the difference between one and multiple championships, then you have a extremely exaggerated perception of just how good he is.


I meant with regards to trading away lavine and rubio.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#449 » by sfballa13 » Tue Jul 4, 2017 1:40 am

Grits n Gravy wrote:Absolutely gutted to lose Ricky. Losing Zach and Ricky in a week is an absolute kick in the nuts but that's the NBA for you.

Man this pick is going to be 20 at best next year and probably 22-25. Marco freaken Belinelli was traded for a pick in the 20's a year or so ago. This is an awful return for Ricky IMO.


Terrible return for Rubio, i completely agree

Rubio is a great passer who was put in the wrong role last season

Rubio next to Butler would have looked really good esp if the Wolves managed to sign Millsap instead of Trash err Taj Gibson

Guess we will see who performs better Rubio or Teague but I dont like this move for the Wolves, Teague is not that much better than Rubio and is getting 5M more per season. That 5M could have gone towards a bench player, something the Wolves are lacking at this point
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#450 » by Zeitgeister » Thu Jul 6, 2017 9:41 am

shrink wrote:
Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:I tried to look at this trade again, with fresh eyes, and I still don't like it.

We have three alpha scorers already, and the ball is going to be in Jimmy Butler's hands at the end of games. What we need is a low usage, 3-and-d guy. teague > rubio in the three's, but rubio is > teague defensively. We didn't lose games because we xouldn't generate enough offense.

It's nice that Teague can run the high post pick and roll. But how important is that really, if Butler is running the offense most ofmthe time. Moreover, even though other teams with the right personnel like to run that play, it is not a rule that every team has to do so. The Spurs did just fine last last year, and again, MIN's offense was fine when Rubio was on the floor. His lack of shooting was off-set by his passing, and the increased FG% he produced for his teammates by finding them easier looks.

In the end, the trade with the Jazz looked fair, assuming we were using that extra cap space to upgrade the position. Since Rubio can do every other PG skill other than shooting better than Teague, I think we used the cap space in a downgrade.

You lose games because of both offense and defense.

The Wolves were 24th in opponent FG% in the clutch, but only 25th in clutch FG% on the offensive end.

Rubio is very much a part of those clutch offense woes. It isn't just about who takes that final shot, but what defenders are keying on during that play. If the opponent has to respect the man in the corner, he won't be able to provide help coverage as easily.

Would you blame Gorgui for the team's low clutch percentages if Thibs spent half a season demanding that he act as point guard for the final three minutes of the game? You could make the same argument "if Gorgui was a better PG, the team would have done better!"

It took Thibs half a season to stop using Wiggins to initate crunch time offense, and stick Ricky in a corner, and our FG% plummeted. When he finally relented and let Ricky run the offense, we were much better, and even put together a little win streak. I don't deny that if Ricky shot threes like Kyle Korver, Thibs system would have worked better. But he should never have been put in that role. I find it difficult to blame Ricky when Thibs miscast him as a three point shooter, removed him from helping the team with his passing, and Wiggins failed at the job. He hurt the team by doing what the coach told him to do?


Thus, we are at the core problem with Ricky Rubio in the modern NBA era. He is a point guard with no gravity. He didn't need to be Kyle Korver, stop with the hyperbole, he needed to be something that most good point guards are asked to be, an off ball threat.

With Butler on the team, it was never in the cards for Rubio to run the offense and he'd be doing the same thing he did at the beginning of last year. The guy who is your primary playmaker needs to be a threat to score.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#451 » by Takingbaconback » Thu Jul 6, 2017 10:22 am

It's not only his unwillingness/inability to shoot but also the time he keeps the ball in his hands. If you are going to pound the ball for that long, at least make yourself a threat to score. Overdribbling is a big problem even for a guy like CP3 who can score the ball at will.

At the end of the day, great teams are built with guys that can help make the offense easier for others and can take advantage when others make it easier for them. It's got to be a 2 way street.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#452 » by Killboard » Thu Jul 6, 2017 12:44 pm

Takingbaconback wrote:It's not only his unwillingness/inability to shoot but also the time he keeps the ball in his hands. If you are going to pound the ball for that long, at least make yourself a threat to score. Overdribbling is a big problem even for a guy like CP3 who can score the ball at will.

At the end of the day, great teams are built with guys that can help make the offense easier for others and can take advantage when others make it easier for them. It's got to be a 2 way street.


Funny to state that when he finished 9th in ORTG (115) among PG with significant minutes last season behind:

Paul, Lowry, Isaiah Tomas, Conley, Curry, Hill, Harden, Lilliard and Irving.

ORTG is a team stat obviously, but still after your words one would think that this team will have a better ORTG than that this season (The warriors had a 115.6 ORTG last season).

But if that's the case I will be happy, because we spended the same money upgrading to Teague than what would have cost add Patterson (Let alone what we could have added nice depth sigining him instead of Taj).

The problem I see with Teague is, that if we (and he) perform as expected, then we have to handle him an extension where he has all the leverage because we will be over the cap and forced to give him any money he wants or sign someone extremely cheap.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#453 » by shrink » Thu Jul 6, 2017 1:43 pm

Zeitgeister wrote:
shrink wrote:
Klomp wrote:You lose games because of both offense and defense.

The Wolves were 24th in opponent FG% in the clutch, but only 25th in clutch FG% on the offensive end.

Rubio is very much a part of those clutch offense woes. It isn't just about who takes that final shot, but what defenders are keying on during that play. If the opponent has to respect the man in the corner, he won't be able to provide help coverage as easily.

Would you blame Gorgui for the team's low clutch percentages if Thibs spent half a season demanding that he act as point guard for the final three minutes of the game? You could make the same argument "if Gorgui was a better PG, the team would have done better!"

It took Thibs half a season to stop using Wiggins to initate crunch time offense, and stick Ricky in a corner, and our FG% plummeted. When he finally relented and let Ricky run the offense, we were much better, and even put together a little win streak. I don't deny that if Ricky shot threes like Kyle Korver, Thibs system would have worked better. But he should never have been put in that role. I find it difficult to blame Ricky when Thibs miscast him as a three point shooter, removed him from helping the team with his passing, and Wiggins failed at the job. He hurt the team by doing what the coach told him to do?


Thus, we are at the core problem with Ricky Rubio in the modern NBA era. He is a point guard with no gravity. He didn't need to be Kyle Korver, stop with the hyperbole, he needed to be something that most good point guards are asked to be, an off ball threat.

With Butler on the team, it was never in the cards for Rubio to run the offense and he'd be doing the same thing he did at the beginning of last year. The guy who is your primary playmaker needs to be a threat to score.


I disagree. Right now, there is a windfall of talent in the NBA at the PG position with point guards that can shoot. Smart GM's have taken advantage of it when they have those players, and built systems that maximize those players skills. However, just because it has become a common way for teams to play, does not mean that this is the only way to play (people usually add ".. in the modern era"). In fact, the modern era has changed to where you may get three-point shooting from any of the five positions, so creative coaches may find it less important overall to get it specifically from your guards. Thibs was trying to run a system he liked (with Wiggins as pre-Jimmy Butler, and Rubio as a three point shooter), when that wasn't the most effective role for them. If you ask Rubio to contribute in a Kyle Korver ROLE, he's going to fail - ask him to contribute in a Ricky Rubio role, and he will succeed. Square peg, round hole. Other teams have been very successful using other systems with their PG's (the Spurs the last couple of years, for example), because they don't have the same talent as other teams.

I believe this trope of "5-on-4" is overstated. I understand from the ivory tower that you don't want 5-on-4 because it hurts spacing, and Rubio did that. However, the big picture is you don't want spacing hurt because it makes it hard for the offense to succeed. Yet the evidence shows that the rest of Rubio's game actually made the offense succeed, and this is not an anomaly - it has gone on for all the years that Ricky couldn't shoot. The rest of his game, probably his passing, has been a bigger plus, then the shooting has been a minus.

Here's the analogy. Some people used to say, "For your team to be successful in the modern era, your PG needs to have size, because there is so much switching." It sounds true, and like the line "your PG's need to be able to shoot three's for gravity," a team would always like that advantage. However, Steph Curry has shown that a team does not have to follow the same blueprint as everyone else, and their other contributions can outstrip that deficiency, if the system doesn't ask him to play the Marcus Smart role. We should not have asked Rubio to play the Korver role, and I don't blame Rubio for the team's lack of success when he was just following the coach's orders to do so.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#454 » by shrink » Thu Jul 6, 2017 1:51 pm

I should add that adding Jimmy to play the Jimmy role is a good fit, and it pushes the entire team toward the more traditional offense that Thibs tried to run last year. So I agree that this limited the ways Rubio could contribute, with the ball in his less, and Jimmy needing more complimentary shooting. The Jimmy trade turned Rubio into a "more valuable to you than us" type of player, which made it more likely for him to be traded.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#455 » by AirP. » Thu Jul 6, 2017 2:24 pm

sfballa13 wrote:
Grits n Gravy wrote:Absolutely gutted to lose Ricky. Losing Zach and Ricky in a week is an absolute kick in the nuts but that's the NBA for you.

Man this pick is going to be 20 at best next year and probably 22-25. Marco freaken Belinelli was traded for a pick in the 20's a year or so ago. This is an awful return for Ricky IMO.


Terrible return for Rubio, i completely agree

Rubio is a great passer who was put in the wrong role last season

Rubio next to Butler would have looked really good esp if the Wolves managed to sign Millsap instead of Trash err Taj Gibson

Guess we will see who performs better Rubio or Teague but I dont like this move for the Wolves, Teague is not that much better than Rubio and is getting 5M more per season. That 5M could have gone towards a bench player, something the Wolves are lacking at this point

For as bad of a return for Rubio I keep seeing on this board, Rubio was on the trading block nearly a year and THIS was the best return Minnesota got. So it's kinda hard to say it's a terrible return when NOBODY was willing to offer more then what Minnesota accepted.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#456 » by My Main Man » Thu Jul 6, 2017 2:32 pm

I think we have to realize that this trade was actually Rubio for Teague and a protected first. He wouldn't have been dumped for nothing if we didn't have a contingency plan.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#457 » by shrink » Thu Jul 6, 2017 2:33 pm

AirP. wrote:
sfballa13 wrote:
Grits n Gravy wrote:Absolutely gutted to lose Ricky. Losing Zach and Ricky in a week is an absolute kick in the nuts but that's the NBA for you.

Man this pick is going to be 20 at best next year and probably 22-25. Marco freaken Belinelli was traded for a pick in the 20's a year or so ago. This is an awful return for Ricky IMO.


Terrible return for Rubio, i completely agree

Rubio is a great passer who was put in the wrong role last season

Rubio next to Butler would have looked really good esp if the Wolves managed to sign Millsap instead of Trash err Taj Gibson

Guess we will see who performs better Rubio or Teague but I dont like this move for the Wolves, Teague is not that much better than Rubio and is getting 5M more per season. That 5M could have gone towards a bench player, something the Wolves are lacking at this point

For as bad of a return for Rubio I keep seeing on this board, Rubio was on the trading block nearly a year and THIS was the best return Minnesota got. So it's kinda hard to say it's a terrible return when NOBODY was willing to offer more then what Minnesota accepted.

I don't know. I think MIN was willing to listen to offers last year, but I don't know if I would say he was "on the block," until the moment we traded for Jimmy Butler. That trade lowered his usefulness to the Wolves, and they accepted a trade for this value level now, that they may have declined three weeks earlier.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#458 » by Baseline81 » Thu Jul 6, 2017 2:38 pm

shrink wrote:I don't know. I think MIN was willing to listen to offers last year, but I don't know if I would say he was "on the block," until the moment we traded for Jimmy Butler. That trade lowered his usefulness to the Wolves, and they accepted a trade for this value level now, that they may have declined three weeks earlier.

Based on the return, wouldn't you argue there may have been more to the Rubio for Rose rumors?
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#459 » by AirP. » Thu Jul 6, 2017 2:44 pm

Killboard wrote:The problem I see with Teague is, that if we (and he) perform as expected, then we have to handle him an extension where he has all the leverage because we will be over the cap and forced to give him any money he wants or sign someone extremely cheap.

Or Minnesota will have success and they'll renegotiate that player's option to a longer contract that benefits both sides(but I doubt it). PGs that rely on speed and quickness start to decline quickly in their early 30s. The ones with size and have to utilize more skill(like a Rubio) age much better.
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Re: TRADE: Rubio to Utah for '18 OKC 1st 

Post#460 » by jmoy » Thu Jul 6, 2017 3:36 pm

AirP. wrote:
Killboard wrote:The problem I see with Teague is, that if we (and he) perform as expected, then we have to handle him an extension where he has all the leverage because we will be over the cap and forced to give him any money he wants or sign someone extremely cheap.

Or Minnesota will have success and they'll renegotiate that player's option to a longer contract that benefits both sides(but I doubt it). PGs that rely on speed and quickness start to decline quickly in their early 30s. The ones with size and have to utilize more skill(like a Rubio) age much better.



I agree. I think Rubio could be an Andre Miller/Jason Kidd type that plays for a long time. Not dominate but at worst be a solid back up until late 30's.

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