OFFICIAL: Welcome BACK to New York THJr (4/71m)

[EchelonNYK]

Otto Porter got 26.5. I dont hear anybody saying anything. Yall ust going to have to stop pocket watching and get it through your head that today's NBA teams with the new CBA are paying people.

That deal got trashed to oblivion.

[F N 11]

i said all those deals suck. over and over.

Most if not all of them do.

[dakomish23]

It still would be a bad contract regardless of who else signs where for what and when. Any contract that is excessive when it's signed is excessive. Even if Tim Hardaway Jr turns out to be Tim Hardaway Sr. the contract, based on what he's done, was excessive and all around silly.

In a nutshell

Wrong. If he turns into Sr., that contract is genius.

Unequivocally false. This isn't a slight overpay. It's massive.

[dakomish23]

OK, great! Now, who would you like to add to the team at the remaining 4 million dollars we have if that was the case?

Keep it till 2019/2020. Take some flyers on younger guys on the cheap or facitlate some smaller deals.

Just because you have it doesn't mean you have to use it on players for your roster.

Don't think a player making 4 million will net you a pick in a dump. Nor will it allow you to sign a young significant role player in free agency.

McRoberts just netted a second for 1 year 6 mil remaining. If you send a smaller contract back, like DAL did, you could make it work.

Its better to have it then not IMO

[god shammgod]

i said all those deals suck. over and over.

Most if not all of them do.

so why can't we criticize the timmy one ? i understand what you're saying, lots of teams are making these kinds of deals. but i'm not a fan of those other teams. if i was a washington fan i wouldn't be thrilled. because my big 3 now is gonna be wall, beal, otto. and we won't be able to afford anyone else significant. so we're probably never winning it all because that's not good enough.

[dakomish23]

i said all those deals suck. over and over.

Hey if they're doing something stupid we should too. Worked wonders so far

[shtolky]

In a nutshell

Wrong. If he turns into Sr., that contract is genius.

Unequivocally false. This isn't a slight overpay. It's massive.

What kind of logic is this? So a contract is only viewed in a certain light at the time it's made, regardless of how the player turns out? You may think it's a massive overpay now (many would disagree), but you ignored what the poster said. So you're saying if he turns into Michael Jordan, it's still an overpay? Remember in 2012 when Curry signed his 4 year 40m extension, people were saying how risky and foolish it was because of his ankle issues. So does that mean at the end of that extension when he was an MVP, that contract was still an overpay? Now, if you are 100% sure he will just be the same old THJ from the first half of last season, fine, but you don't know what he will become. In fact, if he plays how he did in the 2nd half of last season, the contract is fine. How about we actually see him perform before we say the contract is a massive overpay.

[seren]

Context is everything. Porter got whatever he got and it was irrelevant. Washington had its top two in Wall and Beal. Doesn't matter they pay Porter 26.5 million or 10 million. You either lose him and not replace him (not enough cap) or overpay him and be over the tax.

We don't have Wall/Beal level players to build around yet. We are not coming out of a decent playoff run. Most importantly, unlike Washington, if we don't sign THJ, we keep the cap space to use elsewhere.

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[prolific96]

This deal will look much better in 2 years when all those high profile free agents re-sign with their teams for those massive contracts.

It still would be a bad contract regardless of who else signs where for what and when. Any contract that is excessive when it's signed is excessive. Even if Tim Hardaway Jr turns out to be Tim Hardaway Sr. the contract, based on what he's done, was excessive and all around silly.

Wait, what? Unless I am misunderstanding you, you're saying that because the contract can be perceived as excessive now, that it will always be excessive no matter how he turns out? Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but the contract can include his production up to this point PLUS what we think he could become. If he becomes THJ, Sr. (or any all star type player) as you said, is the contract then not a steal?

Its excessive no matter how it turns out because the next closest team offered 4/48 million. Why does the production over a half a season weigh more than his whole body of work? Thats not a prediction most statisticians would make.

After reading through all the threads related to THJr, the posters generally ok with the contractual terms use words like hope, could, wish, potential etc.

If the Knicks want take a chance on a player they should sign guys to contacts like the Heat offered Dion Waiters last year.

[dakomish23]

i said all those deals suck. over and over.

Most if not all of them do.

so why can't we criticize the timmy one ? i understand what you're saying, lots of teams are making these kinds of deals. but i'm not a fan of those other teams. if i was a washington fan i wouldn't be thrilled. because my big 3 now is gonna be wall, beal, otto. and we won't be able to afford anyone else significant. so we're probably never winning it all because that's not good enough.

Because we have to blindly support everything any FO does and blame the players when it doesn't work

[shtolky]

It still would be a bad contract regardless of who else signs where for what and when. Any contract that is excessive when it's signed is excessive. Even if Tim Hardaway Jr turns out to be Tim Hardaway Sr. the contract, based on what he's done, was excessive and all around silly.

Wait, what? Unless I am misunderstanding you, you're saying that because the contract can be perceived as excessive now, that it will always be excessive no matter how he turns out? Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but the contract can include his production up to this point PLUS what we think he could become. If he becomes THJ, Sr. (or any all star type player) as you said, is the contract then not a steal?

Its excessive no matter how it turns out because the next closest team offered 4/48 million. Why does the production over a half a season weigh more than his whole body of work? Thats not a prediction most statisticians would make.

After reading through all the threads related to THJr, the posters generally ok with the contractual terms use words like hope, could, wish, potential etc.

If the Knicks want take a chance on a player they should sign guys to contacts like the Heat offered Dion Waiters last year.

First of all, you choose to believe the 4/48 thing. It's just speculation and a rumor. So I'm not going to give that credence. We have no idea what other teams offered him. Second of all, that's faulty logic. If he ends up outperforming his contract, however that is measured, the contract is good, period. I am not sure how anyone can argue differently. As I said before, Curry signed a 4 year 40m dollar extension and it was ripped because of his ankle issues, it was seen as a huge risk. So you're saying that the contract was excessive given his subsequent success? Were other teams going to give him 10m per in 2012 given his ankle issues? I have no idea. Again, contracts can be given out for past success and future potential, we see it every single year.

And it wasn't just the second half, he was very good from January on, very very good. Every year guys get deals based off of a year, or slightly less. People acting as if this contract is the end all be all of crap contracts just flat out did not watch him play last year, or haven't paid attention to the other contracts being handed out. Yes, let's just tank and preserve cap space and suck for 3 straight years, all while KP looks for his exit.

[F N 11]

i said all those deals suck. over and over.

Most if not all of them do.

so why can't we criticize the timmy one ? i understand what you're saying, lots of teams are making these kinds of deals. but i'm not a fan of those other teams. if i was a washington fan i wouldn't be thrilled. because my big 3 now is gonna be wall, beal, otto. and we won't be able to afford anyone else significant. so we're probably never winning it all because that's not good enough.

My thing is we all probably hate the contract. We have had a lot of bad contracts handed out. from Curry, James, and Amare to name some. However it is different this time around. Tim is coming off of a breakout season in which he went against all odds to make it back to the hawks to finish the season a starter. Averaging 18 ppg in that span. Timmy is the reason why Korver was on the block. Tim is now 25 years old and would be 29 by the end of the deal if he doesnt opt out. That to me is amazing. We took a chance on a RF who showed signs of breaking out. This reminds me of Kyle Lowry. With a bigger role Timmy will find his niche in the NBA. We had to overpay by 11 million so the hawks wont match. Thats how you steal free agents. He's young and still improving. We all hate the deal but talking about it all summer wont make anyone feel better. Hopefully he has some encouraging words at his presser to heal some people.

[shtolky]

Most if not all of them do.

so why can't we criticize the timmy one ? i understand what you're saying, lots of teams are making these kinds of deals. but i'm not a fan of those other teams. if i was a washington fan i wouldn't be thrilled. because my big 3 now is gonna be wall, beal, otto. and we won't be able to afford anyone else significant. so we're probably never winning it all because that's not good enough.

Because we have to blindly support everything any FO does and blame the players when it doesn't work

Not everything is black and white as it seems is the case on this forum. Why don't we actually watch a single game, heck, 10 games or more before we bitch and moan. This isn't like Jerome James or Noah, etc. where production/injuries were a huge issue, as we have seen a pretty decent sample size last year from Hardaway. This forum loves to go nuts before anything has happened. We have a 20+ page thread on DSJ over Frank because of two freakin summer league games, it's hilarious. I will be the first person to join you and say the contract sucks if it sucks, but now is not the time. People are saying this contract sucks regardless of how he plays, it's just absurd. And guess what, I am not even saying I love the contract, but let's pump the breaks here.

[Fury]

Just gotta hope he makes a jump like Joe Johnson did

[F N 11]

in 2012 Kyle Lowry was traded for a first round pick and Gary Forbes. Kyle sucke dhis first year in TO. He turned it around at age 27 folks. Point is situation and opportunity. The guy is now an all star and making 30 mil a year at age 31.

[Knicks_Fan2]

Otto Porter got 26.5. I dont hear anybody saying anything. Yall ust going to have to stop pocket watching and get it through your head that today's NBA teams with the new CBA are paying people.

That deal got trashed to oblivion.

The alternative to not signing THJR is not necessarily signing another player. Can everyone understand that?

Otto Porter was overpaid because BK has cap space to burn and has zero draft picks going forward. Further, Washington was put in an untenable position because they could not improve if they didn't match so BK had no incentive (just like their RFA offers the year prior) to do anything but max him out. I like Otto a lot, especially because he was one of the best shooters in the league last year and has a solid--but not great--defensive game but of course he isn't worth 26.5mm. The issue here really is why even get into the RFA market at all? It is always overpay central and THJR doesn't even fit the timeline of our team and, at the point we will want money to sign guys around KP (assuming he improves) we will have locked up $36 mm of our cap space.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

The contract is bad because we paid well above market value. With restricted free agents you always have to give more than his worth, in hope the other team won't match. But we did more than that. It's unlikely the Hawks would have matched $55-60 million.

We all hope he ends up earning that money, but it won't change the fact that we overpaid, because in the end we could have gotten him for less.

[god shammgod]

in 2012 Kyle Lowry was traded for a first round pick and Gary Forbes. Kyle sucke dhis first year in TO. He turned it around at age 27 folks. Point is situation and opportunity. The guy is now an all star and making 20 mil a year at age 31.

and for every success there's even more failures. this is a risk. could it work out ? sure. but what are the odds it does ?

[dakomish23]

Wrong. If he turns into Sr., that contract is genius.

Unequivocally false. This isn't a slight overpay. It's massive.

What kind of logic is this? So a contract is only viewed in a certain light at the time it's made, regardless of how the player turns out? You may think it's a massive overpay now (many would disagree), but you ignored what the poster said. So you're saying if he turns into Michael Jordan, it's still an overpay? Remember in 2012 when Curry signed his 4 year 40m extension, people were saying how risky and foolish it was because of his ankle issues. So does that mean at the end of that extension when he was an MVP, that contract was still an overpay? Now, if you are 100% sure he will just be the same old THJ from the first half of last season, fine, but you don't know what he will become. In fact, if he plays how he did in the 2nd half of last season, the contract is fine. How about we actually see him perform before we say the contract is a massive overpay.

It's sound normal logic.

You know what's not? Using an argument where THJ will turn into MICHAEL "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME" JORDAN as a retort. Cmon man. At least say Derozan or Klay

GSW kept Curry because of the upside he showed when he was healthy.

His rookie year (80 games)

17.5 PPG 4.5 RPG 5.9 APG 1.9 SPG
46% FG 44% 3PT 89% FT

His sophomore year (74 games)

18.6 PPG 3.9 RPG 5.8 APG 1.5 SPG
48% FG 44% 3PT 94% FT

That's a 154 game sample size. If THJ did those second half numbers over such a large sample size, you wouldn't hear nothing but praise from everyone on this board, even with the injury concern.

It's not that I'm pissed THJ is on this roster. I'm fine with him on the team long term.
- the salary: We could of had THJ for way cheaper IMO and in the opinion of most except some Knicks fans.
- the flexibility: instead of being able to make big splashes in 2019 & 2020, when KP will be entering his prime alongside WHG and more top 10 picks on rookie deals, we're limited.

I'll be rooting for him because he wears a Knicks jersey. But the overall cost to get him in one is something I would not have paid.

[F N 11]

in 2012 Kyle Lowry was traded for a first round pick and Gary Forbes. Kyle sucke dhis first year in TO. He turned it around at age 27 folks. Point is situation and opportunity. The guy is now an all star and making 20 mil a year at age 31.

and for every success there's even more failures. this is a risk. could it work out ? sure. but what are the odds it does ?

I think 18ppg for 40 games is enough of a sample size. Jeff wants to run and so does Timmy. He's also a secondary ball handler which is surprising and shows he has improved. Not to mention the kid is clutch cold blooded.