OFFICIAL: Welcome BACK to New York THJr (4/71m)

[F N 11]

The contract is bad because we paid well above market value. With restricted free agents you always have to give more than his worth, in hope the other team won't match. But we did more than that. It's unlikely the Hawks would have matched $55-60 million.

We all hope he ends up earning that money, but it won't change the fact that we overpaid, because in the end we could have gotten him for less.

If it was 65 they would of matched. I would say we over payed by 11 million.

[rajajackal]

what time is the press conference?

[shtolky]

Unequivocally false. This isn't a slight overpay. It's massive.

What kind of logic is this? So a contract is only viewed in a certain light at the time it's made, regardless of how the player turns out? You may think it's a massive overpay now (many would disagree), but you ignored what the poster said. So you're saying if he turns into Michael Jordan, it's still an overpay? Remember in 2012 when Curry signed his 4 year 40m extension, people were saying how risky and foolish it was because of his ankle issues. So does that mean at the end of that extension when he was an MVP, that contract was still an overpay? Now, if you are 100% sure he will just be the same old THJ from the first half of last season, fine, but you don't know what he will become. In fact, if he plays how he did in the 2nd half of last season, the contract is fine. How about we actually see him perform before we say the contract is a massive overpay.

It's sound normal logic.

You know what's not? Using an argument where THJ will turn into MICHAEL "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME" JORDAN as a retort. Cmon man. At least say Derozan or Klay

GSW kept Curry because of the upside he showed when he was healthy.

His rookie year (80 games)

17.5 PPG 4.5 RPG 5.9 APG 1.9 SPG
46% FG 44% 3PT 89% FT

His sophomore year (74 games)

18.6 PPG 3.9 RPG 5.8 APG 1.5 SPG
48% FG 44% 3PT 94% FT

That's a 154 game sample size. If THJ did those second half numbers over such a large sample size, you wouldn't hear nothing but praise from everyone on this board, even with the injury concern.

It's not that I'm pissed THJ is on this roster. I'm fine with him on the team long term.
- the salary: We could of had THJ for way cheaper IMO and in the opinion of most except some Knicks fans.
- the flexibility: instead of being able to make big splashes in 2019 & 2020, when KP will be entering his prime alongside WHG and more top 10 picks on rookie deals, we're limited.

I'll be rooting for him because he wears a Knicks jersey. But the overall cost to get him in one is something I would not have paid.

No...the reason I used MJ was deliberate. You used definitive language that the contract, no matter what happens, is a disaster. Use, Klay, use Derozan, it doesn't matter. The point was, you cannot say the contract will ALWAYS be excessive when he hasn't played a game yet. If you want to say that for now, it's an overpay, I won't argue, but to simply say that it's a disaster forever, as you are implying, is just ridiculous. Guys do improve...I know that's shocking to some around here, but it does happen, every single season.

You also missed my point about Curry. I wasn't talking about his production, I was talking about his health. Screw his production if he can't stay healthy. Would Philly give Embiid a max extension now? I doubt it, but he did produce a ton. Curry's deal was criticized, but now it looks like one of the all-time steals. That's precisely my point.

You did say you would root for him and I respect that, I hope you praise him if he requires praise and plays well. We have to see. I happen to not think it's nearly as terrible as some think, simply because he's young, has shown the ability, has improved, and in today's market 17m for an up and coming 25 year old SG is not that excessive. Let's just wait and see him play before we say how egregious the contract will ALWAYS be. I also disagree we could have had him so much cheaper that it would have significantly affected the cap. At 15m per, the extra 2m won't hurt us.

[dakomish23]

What kind of logic is this? So a contract is only viewed in a certain light at the time it's made, regardless of how the player turns out? You may think it's a massive overpay now (many would disagree), but you ignored what the poster said. So you're saying if he turns into Michael Jordan, it's still an overpay? Remember in 2012 when Curry signed his 4 year 40m extension, people were saying how risky and foolish it was because of his ankle issues. So does that mean at the end of that extension when he was an MVP, that contract was still an overpay? Now, if you are 100% sure he will just be the same old THJ from the first half of last season, fine, but you don't know what he will become. In fact, if he plays how he did in the 2nd half of last season, the contract is fine. How about we actually see him perform before we say the contract is a massive overpay.

It's sound normal logic.

You know what's not? Using an argument where THJ will turn into MICHAEL "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME" JORDAN as a retort. Cmon man. At least say Derozan or Klay

GSW kept Curry because of the upside he showed when he was healthy.

His rookie year (80 games)

17.5 PPG 4.5 RPG 5.9 APG 1.9 SPG
46% FG 44% 3PT 89% FT

His sophomore year (74 games)

18.6 PPG 3.9 RPG 5.8 APG 1.5 SPG
48% FG 44% 3PT 94% FT

That's a 154 game sample size. If THJ did those second half numbers over such a large sample size, you wouldn't hear nothing but praise from everyone on this board, even with the injury concern.

It's not that I'm pissed THJ is on this roster. I'm fine with him on the team long term.
- the salary: We could of had THJ for way cheaper IMO and in the opinion of most except some Knicks fans.
- the flexibility: instead of being able to make big splashes in 2019 & 2020, when KP will be entering his prime alongside WHG and more top 10 picks on rookie deals, we're limited.

I'll be rooting for him because he wears a Knicks jersey. But the overall cost to get him in one is something I would not have paid.

No...the reason I used MJ was deliberate. You used definitive language that the contract, no matter what happens, is a disaster. Use, Klay, use Derozan, it doesn't matter. The point was, you cannot say the contract will ALWAYS be excessive when he hasn't played a game yet. If you want to say that for now, it's an overpay, I won't argue, but to simply say that it's a disaster forever, as you are implying, is just ridiculous. Guys do improve...I know that's shocking to some around here, but it does happen, every single season.

You also missed my point about Curry. I wasn't talking about his production, I was talking about his health. Screw his production if he can't stay healthy. Would Philly give Embiid a max extension now? I doubt it, but he did produce a ton. Curry's deal was criticized, but now it looks like one of the all-time steals. That's precisely my point.

You did say you would root for him and I respect that, I hope you praise him if he requires praise and plays well. We have to see. I happen to not think it's nearly as terrible as some think, simply because he's young, has shown the ability, has improved, and in today's market 17m for an up and coming 25 year old SG is not that excessive. Let's just wait and see him play before we say how egregious the contract will ALWAYS be. I also disagree we could have had him so much cheaper that it would have significantly affected the cap. At 15m per, the extra 2m won't hurt us.

I wouldn't go over 14 for him and even then I thought it was reaching. I think a massive overpay is bad no matter what he does moving forward.

The end doesn't justify the means for me.

Nothing would make happier than for him to live up to and/or outplay that contract. I'm not rooting for his failure.

[prolific96]

Wait, what? Unless I am misunderstanding you, you're saying that because the contract can be perceived as excessive now, that it will always be excessive no matter how he turns out? Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but the contract can include his production up to this point PLUS what we think he could become. If he becomes THJ, Sr. (or any all star type player) as you said, is the contract then not a steal?

Its excessive no matter how it turns out because the next closest team offered 4/48 million. Why does the production over a half a season weigh more than his whole body of work? Thats not a prediction most statisticians would make.

After reading through all the threads related to THJr, the posters generally ok with the contractual terms use words like hope, could, wish, potential etc.

If the Knicks want take a chance on a player they should sign guys to contacts like the Heat offered Dion Waiters last year.

First of all, you choose to believe the 4/48 thing. It's just speculation and a rumor. So I'm not going to give that credence. We have no idea what other teams offered him. Second of all, that's faulty logic. If he ends up outperforming his contract, however that is measured, the contract is good, period. I am not sure how anyone can argue differently. As I said before, Curry signed a 4 year 40m dollar extension and it was ripped because of his ankle issues, it was seen as a huge risk. So you're saying that the contract was excessive given his subsequent success? Were other teams going to give him 10m per in 2012 given his ankle issues? I have no idea. Again, contracts can be given out for past success and future potential, we see it every single year.

And it wasn't just the second half, he was very good from January on, very very good. Every year guys get deals based off of a year, or slightly less. People acting as if this contract is the end all be all of crap contracts just flat out did not watch him play last year, or haven't paid attention to the other contracts being handed out. Yes, let's just tank and preserve cap space and suck for 3 straight years, all while KP looks for his exit.

The Curry example is irrelevant because Curry was an established player at the time. Not only that, the ankle injury was largely overblown as it only cost Curry one partial season in his first four years. Curry played 78 games the season before he got his contract so I'm fairly certain dude was going to get paid one way or another. It wasn't nearly the same risk THJR is.

Tell me why I shouldn't believe the 4/48? No one has come out to discredit it? Atlanta notified the Knicks before the 48 hours were up so it doesn't appear they were having difficulties determining whether they should match. At the end of the day we are all fans, so we rely on what's put out there by the "experts". I'm fairly confident if I search through your post history you have used these say sources to bolster your opinion.

Lastly, just because other teams hand out stupid contracts doesn't mean we should. Hell half the teams that are offering those crappy deals are mediocre and have no chance at the finals. Do you think THJR is going to keep KP from leaving NY? I mean WB couldn't keep KD from GS.

[shtolky]

Its excessive no matter how it turns out because the next closest team offered 4/48 million. Why does the production over a half a season weigh more than his whole body of work? Thats not a prediction most statisticians would make.

After reading through all the threads related to THJr, the posters generally ok with the contractual terms use words like hope, could, wish, potential etc.

If the Knicks want take a chance on a player they should sign guys to contacts like the Heat offered Dion Waiters last year.

First of all, you choose to believe the 4/48 thing. It's just speculation and a rumor. So I'm not going to give that credence. We have no idea what other teams offered him. Second of all, that's faulty logic. If he ends up outperforming his contract, however that is measured, the contract is good, period. I am not sure how anyone can argue differently. As I said before, Curry signed a 4 year 40m dollar extension and it was ripped because of his ankle issues, it was seen as a huge risk. So you're saying that the contract was excessive given his subsequent success? Were other teams going to give him 10m per in 2012 given his ankle issues? I have no idea. Again, contracts can be given out for past success and future potential, we see it every single year.

And it wasn't just the second half, he was very good from January on, very very good. Every year guys get deals based off of a year, or slightly less. People acting as if this contract is the end all be all of crap contracts just flat out did not watch him play last year, or haven't paid attention to the other contracts being handed out. Yes, let's just tank and preserve cap space and suck for 3 straight years, all while KP looks for his exit.

The Curry example is irrelevant because Curry was an established player at the time. Not only that, the ankle injury was largely overblown as it only cost Curry one partial season in his first four years. Curry played 78 games the season before he got his contract so I'm fairly certain dude was going to get paid one way or another. It wasn't nearly the same risk THJR is.

Tell me why I shouldn't believe the 4/48? No one has come out to discredit it? Atlanta notified the Knicks before the 48 hours were up so it doesn't appear they were having difficulties determining whether they should match. At the end of the day we are all fans, so we rely on what's put out there by the "experts". I'm fairly confident if I search through your post history you have used these say sources to bolster your opinion.

Lastly, just because other teams hand out stupid contracts doesn't mean we should. Hell half the teams that are offering those crappy deals are mediocre and have no chance at the finals. Do you think THJR is going to keep KP from leaving NY? I mean WB couldn't keep KD from GS.

Curry is very relevant because despite him having success there were real concerns about his health. He had something like 5 ankle sprains after his first ankle procedure. It was a huge concern and the Warriors were baffled as to why he kept hurting his ankle. You're missing the point though. The point is that 4/40 for Curry NOW seems like a ridiculous, absurd bargain, but at the time there were real questions, with many saying that GS gave him too many years. Just because at the time of a contract it's perceived to be a negative doesn't mean it can't turn into a positive. That is all.

And the 4/48, I mean then you can just believe literally everything you read simply because nobody has discredited it. Also, feel free to look through my posts, but I think you'll find I am actually (usually) very skeptical of "experts" and reports that claim something. I just don't like hearsay and rumors, that's just me. Again I am sure you will find something, but I think I am known as a skeptic of reports. It's just too easy for a writer to say something and have it be believed. Maybe ATL had a hard price they weren't going to go over, maybe not. Who knows, but not every team takes the full allotted time.

And lastly, I never said those other contracts were stupid. Everything is relative, and the market dictates that if you want a young, good SG, you have to pay. That's what the increased cap and market have dictated. My main point that seems to be lost is that people are giving this horrible mentions as a contract without him even playing a game for us. It's as if those posters are barred from praising Tim because his contract will ALWAYS suck, even though he hasn't played a second for us yet.

[Dru]

what time is the press conference?

Great question.. anyone?

[yankeefan1024]

what time is the press conference?

Great question.. anyone?

typical knicks to have a press conference and no1 have any idea when it is

[el13adnino]

Usually early afternoon

[NYKBaller]

People thought klay thompson was overpaid with a max now look at it

[EchelonNYK]

Usually early afternoon

The Knicks operates on black people time. So early afternoon means 4PM at best.

[BKlutch]

Does anybody really know what time it is?

https://youtu.be/7uy0ldI_1HA?t=123

[New Jersey Knick]

People thought klay thompson was overpaid with a max now look at it

Klay has been better than THJr in EVERY aspect of basketball since birth tho.....(Tim might be able to jump higher).....other than being the sons of former NBA guys they aren't really comparable players.

[yankeefan1024]

Usually early afternoon

The Knicks operates on black people time. So early afternoon means 4PM at best.

black people time lol

[prolific96]

First of all, you choose to believe the 4/48 thing. It's just speculation and a rumor. So I'm not going to give that credence. We have no idea what other teams offered him. Second of all, that's faulty logic. If he ends up outperforming his contract, however that is measured, the contract is good, period. I am not sure how anyone can argue differently. As I said before, Curry signed a 4 year 40m dollar extension and it was ripped because of his ankle issues, it was seen as a huge risk. So you're saying that the contract was excessive given his subsequent success? Were other teams going to give him 10m per in 2012 given his ankle issues? I have no idea. Again, contracts can be given out for past success and future potential, we see it every single year.

And it wasn't just the second half, he was very good from January on, very very good. Every year guys get deals based off of a year, or slightly less. People acting as if this contract is the end all be all of crap contracts just flat out did not watch him play last year, or haven't paid attention to the other contracts being handed out. Yes, let's just tank and preserve cap space and suck for 3 straight years, all while KP looks for his exit.

The Curry example is irrelevant because Curry was an established player at the time. Not only that, the ankle injury was largely overblown as it only cost Curry one partial season in his first four years. Curry played 78 games the season before he got his contract so I'm fairly certain dude was going to get paid one way or another. It wasn't nearly the same risk THJR is.

Tell me why I shouldn't believe the 4/48? No one has come out to discredit it? Atlanta notified the Knicks before the 48 hours were up so it doesn't appear they were having difficulties determining whether they should match. At the end of the day we are all fans, so we rely on what's put out there by the "experts". I'm fairly confident if I search through your post history you have used these say sources to bolster your opinion.

Lastly, just because other teams hand out stupid contracts doesn't mean we should. Hell half the teams that are offering those crappy deals are mediocre and have no chance at the finals. Do you think THJR is going to keep KP from leaving NY? I mean WB couldn't keep KD from GS.

Curry is very relevant because despite him having success there were real concerns about his health. He had something like 5 ankle sprains after his first ankle procedure. It was a huge concern and the Warriors were baffled as to why he kept hurting his ankle. You're missing the point though. The point is that 4/40 for Curry NOW seems like a ridiculous, absurd bargain, but at the time there were real questions, with many saying that GS gave him too many years. Just because at the time of a contract it's perceived to be a negative doesn't mean it can't turn into a positive. That is all.

And the 4/48, I mean then you can just believe literally everything you read simply because nobody has discredited it. Also, feel free to look through my posts, but I think you'll find I am actually (usually) very skeptical of "experts" and reports that claim something. I just don't like hearsay and rumors, that's just me. Again I am sure you will find something, but I think I am known as a skeptic of reports. It's just too easy for a writer to say something and have it be believed. Maybe ATL had a hard price they weren't going to go over, maybe not. Who knows, but not every team takes the full allotted time.

And lastly, I never said those other contracts were stupid. Everything is relative, and the market dictates that if you want a young, good SG, you have to pay. That's what the increased cap and market have dictated. My main point that seems to be lost is that people are giving this horrible mentions as a contract without him even playing a game for us. It's as if those posters are barred from praising Tim because his contract will ALWAYS suck, even though he hasn't played a second for us yet.

So you're saying overpaying THJR is worth the risk because he could make the contract look like bargain in the future? I don't think Knicks are in a position to be taken those sorts of gambles.

How much of a contract should be based on current performance vs what you think a player may become?

Not only that, I'm pretty sure THJRs shooting percentages dropped from January on. Also pretty sure his #'s declined in games he started in. Is it possible he did most of his damage against reserve players? I'll be honest, I only watched maybe 2-3 Hawk games last season so maybe I missed out on Timmy's improvement. Obviously I hope for the best and it's nice to have another young player on the roster with some potential but IMO Timmy doesn't change much in the win column.

[Fury]

The Curry example is irrelevant because Curry was an established player at the time. Not only that, the ankle injury was largely overblown as it only cost Curry one partial season in his first four years. Curry played 78 games the season before he got his contract so I'm fairly certain dude was going to get paid one way or another. It wasn't nearly the same risk THJR is.

Tell me why I shouldn't believe the 4/48? No one has come out to discredit it? Atlanta notified the Knicks before the 48 hours were up so it doesn't appear they were having difficulties determining whether they should match. At the end of the day we are all fans, so we rely on what's put out there by the "experts". I'm fairly confident if I search through your post history you have used these say sources to bolster your opinion.

Lastly, just because other teams hand out stupid contracts doesn't mean we should. Hell half the teams that are offering those crappy deals are mediocre and have no chance at the finals. Do you think THJR is going to keep KP from leaving NY? I mean WB couldn't keep KD from GS.

Curry is very relevant because despite him having success there were real concerns about his health. He had something like 5 ankle sprains after his first ankle procedure. It was a huge concern and the Warriors were baffled as to why he kept hurting his ankle. You're missing the point though. The point is that 4/40 for Curry NOW seems like a ridiculous, absurd bargain, but at the time there were real questions, with many saying that GS gave him too many years. Just because at the time of a contract it's perceived to be a negative doesn't mean it can't turn into a positive. That is all.

And the 4/48, I mean then you can just believe literally everything you read simply because nobody has discredited it. Also, feel free to look through my posts, but I think you'll find I am actually (usually) very skeptical of "experts" and reports that claim something. I just don't like hearsay and rumors, that's just me. Again I am sure you will find something, but I think I am known as a skeptic of reports. It's just too easy for a writer to say something and have it be believed. Maybe ATL had a hard price they weren't going to go over, maybe not. Who knows, but not every team takes the full allotted time.

And lastly, I never said those other contracts were stupid. Everything is relative, and the market dictates that if you want a young, good SG, you have to pay. That's what the increased cap and market have dictated. My main point that seems to be lost is that people are giving this horrible mentions as a contract without him even playing a game for us. It's as if those posters are barred from praising Tim because his contract will ALWAYS suck, even though he hasn't played a second for us yet.

So you're saying overpaying THJR is worth the risk because he could make the contract look like bargain in the future? I don't think Knicks are in a position to be taken those sorts of gambles.

How much of a contract should be based on current performance vs what you think a player may become?

Not only that, I'm pretty sure THJRs shooting percentages dropped from January on. Also pretty sure his #'s declined in games he started in. Is it possible he did most of his damage against reserve players? I'll be honest, I only watched maybe 2-3 Hawk games last season so maybe I missed out on Timmy's improvement. Obviously I hope for the best and it's nice to have another young player on the roster with some potential but IMO Timmy doesn't change much in the win column.

His numbers went up as a starter (more minutes, but at least he reached the 3 marks in rebounds and assists which gives me hope). His shooting went down tho, but still a solid .560 TS%. His numbers across the board went up in the second half of the year

[god shammgod]

nah, he shot better january on. gotta be fair.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Unequivocally false. This isn't a slight overpay. It's massive.

What kind of logic is this? So a contract is only viewed in a certain light at the time it's made, regardless of how the player turns out? You may think it's a massive overpay now (many would disagree), but you ignored what the poster said. So you're saying if he turns into Michael Jordan, it's still an overpay? Remember in 2012 when Curry signed his 4 year 40m extension, people were saying how risky and foolish it was because of his ankle issues. So does that mean at the end of that extension when he was an MVP, that contract was still an overpay? Now, if you are 100% sure he will just be the same old THJ from the first half of last season, fine, but you don't know what he will become. In fact, if he plays how he did in the 2nd half of last season, the contract is fine. How about we actually see him perform before we say the contract is a massive overpay.

It's sound normal logic.

You know what's not? Using an argument where THJ will turn into MICHAEL "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME" JORDAN as a retort. Cmon man. At least say Derozan or Klay

GSW kept Curry because of the upside he showed when he was healthy.

His rookie year (80 games)

17.5 PPG 4.5 RPG 5.9 APG 1.9 SPG
46% FG 44% 3PT 89% FT

His sophomore year (74 games)

18.6 PPG 3.9 RPG 5.8 APG 1.5 SPG
48% FG 44% 3PT 94% FT

That's a 154 game sample size. If THJ did those second half numbers over such a large sample size, you wouldn't hear nothing but praise from everyone on this board, even with the injury concern.

It's not that I'm pissed THJ is on this roster. I'm fine with him on the team long term.
- the salary: We could of had THJ for way cheaper IMO and in the opinion of most except some Knicks fans.
- the flexibility: instead of being able to make big splashes in 2019 & 2020, when KP will be entering his prime alongside WHG and more top 10 picks on rookie deals, we're limited.

I'll be rooting for him because he wears a Knicks jersey. But the overall cost to get him in one is something I would not have paid.

You guys are nuts. The dude said if Jr. turns into Sr. it's still an overpay. That's RIDICULOUS.

I am not happy but, when Melo is gone we'll see what the cap situation is. If Hardaway sucks we will know it was a bad deal. Until then it's all unfounded opinion. Much like the lamenting over DSJr. Should we have made the deal? I don't think so. That's my opinion. I just won't pretend to know how bad this deal is (its not as bad as some think) until I see it play out. If you ask me, Mills never wanted to trade him away and now he has him back. I would be happy with 4/60 no kicker. I'll worry about the extra 3.5 mil he's making when I see how he performs and fits in with others.

The big issue for me is we didn't trade Melo. Without knowing those cap ramifications, they shouldn't have locked this money up yet. Also...Baker is our lead PG right now. We have no cap money left. They want to keep Lee. I would dump his salary for assets and that frees up future cap.

It is up to Hardaway to earn this money. I am not worried yet. He has talent. Stays healthy. He fits the time line and adds to our young core. I see the logic. I'm just not sure we needed to do this just yet...at this price. We shall see.

[NYKBaller]

Kcp was offered 80 million, where's the outroar on his deal or because it's not the Knicks it's not clickbait enough

[F N 11]

nah, he shot better january on. gotta be fair.

Had a bad December I believe. not bad, terrible.