Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline

[thamadkant]

Mike James is a bad choice for a PG for the Suns, he is like Knight and Bledsoe combined style wise, but he is even more of ball hog than the others.

[NTB]

Mike James won't even get playing minutes. He will be the Ronnie Price of this season. No big deal.

[thamadkant]

Suns have terrible ball movement... I would definitely push for Jackson to start.... He has looked good passing the ball around and he actually likes to do it rather than look for his own shots which the Suns have excess players who does.

Jackson should be coming off the bench unless Warren is starting at the 4, right now TJ is our second best player and by a pretty wide margin.

Warren coming off the bench doesnt stop him from being the 2nd best offensive player...

Its just that Jackson adds a lot of the missing aspects to the Suns that led to the last 3 years... bottom rung defense and passing.
Jackson immediately fixes those things.

[Roddy B for 3]

How would Suns fans feel about Wesley Matthews (18.5M this season, player option at 19.5M next season) + Dwight Powell + 2 2nd rounders + Dallas' 2018 1st top 6 protected (indefinitely) for cap space?

[nevetsov]

You can keep Powell, and $19m is a bit steep an asking price to buy what could be a mid first and a couple of seconds thanks.

Edit: wait, player option next season? Yeesh, no thanks.

Best I'd do is flip him for Brandon Knight ($13m per, 3 years remaining). Saves you $5m in cap space this year and next.

[NavLDO]

You're confusing being bad with rebuilding. We most certainly have NOT been rebuilding for 5 years, that timeline includes the wonderful pre-Ryan season with Beasley, Scola and Shannon Brown which was followed by the 48 win season that paired Bledsoe and Dragic which was followed by the playoff hopeful but extremely disappointing Isaiah Thomas season which was followed by our first real rebuilding season. And it's laughable to group all lottery picks together as if there's no difference between picking 14th vs 1st.

Oh, I know...DeAngelo Russell at 2, and Okafor at 3 has been soooo much better than Booker at 13...or Parker at 2 and Gordon at 4 have contributed so much more to their teams than Warren at 14...and I don't even need to elaborate on 2013...

...but you go on with that mantra that higher pick always = higher success...I mean Bender proved as much last year over Chriss, right. He should over time, but I'll believe it when I see it, until then...

I said no such thing and I'm quite sure you know it.

And it's laughable to group all lottery picks together as if there's no difference between picking 14th vs 1st.

Then please elaborate on how that statement means something different than what I just provide examples to; you said it was 'laughable' to 'group lottery picks' as having 'no difference between picking 14th vs 1st.'

I provided concrete examples within the past few drafts of how 'end of the lottery' picks have played as well, or better than, draft picks that were selected in the top 4...or were you literally meaning 1st and 14th, because if that was your meaning, well, it's irrelevant since we've picked 14th ONCE...with Warren...but here you...comparison between #1 and #14.

http://bkref.com/tiny/wreOH

And you know as well as I do, that had Horny not had a love affair with Tucker, Warren deserved to play a lot more minutes than he did, so you'll need to go to the Per36 and the Advanced numbers for an accurate comparison.

Yep! Huge difference between #1 and #14...it's 'laughable', some might say, especially considering that even with another #1 overall pick, KAT, they couldn't do much better than us.

But back to your point...what exactly did you mean if it wasn't that access to higher draft picks ensures a better NBA player?

You can refute and rebut all you want, but that was your meaning, pure and simple.

[lilfishi22]

Mike James won't even get playing minutes. He will be the Ronnie Price of this season. No big deal.

I dunno about that. Ronnie Price was half-decent in the few minutes he got.

[Frank Lee]

Rebuilds are a risky path. You HAVE to strike gold with a couple of draft picks and/or acquisitions. To put winning on hold with all your young eggs in one basket typically falls short as the chances of these one and done rookies actually panning out, and it coming together simultaneously is a moonshot. McDo has done just this.

Now it does appear he has tried to add quality veteran pieces, but falling short in adding top tier talent. He has tried and failed at the 'remain competitive and rebuild' plan. I know, the argument against winning is worse draft picks.... but if anything, the recent success of later picks, and stalled returns on early ones shows that the overall talent is so generic that here are not but one or two NBA ready players each year. To bank on a succession of Lotto selections as your 'Plan for the future' is a thin ice pond stroll. Look at us right now.... Len ? whoopteedoo... so we turn to Chris and Bender ? two PFs who have the potential, but not the yet the proof. And this is our foundation? If not for Booker, McDo would be McDone here.

You can latch onto the excuse laden marketing ploy 'TIMELINE', myopically justifying the actions of the FO.... But to me, it is more of an explanation/excuse for the past two/three years and asking all to look/accept the current squad in a smokey mirror.

[carey]

How would Suns fans feel about Wesley Matthews (18.5M this season, player option at 19.5M next season) + Dwight Powell + 2 2nd rounders + Dallas' 2018 1st top 6 protected (indefinitely) for cap space?

First you tell me how you're a Saints fan but also support all those Texas teams? Would make sense for you to be a Cowboys fan!

[Kjdills13]

The success of the number 1 pick speaks for itself.

But after pick 3 it's a crapshoot.

Yes you have a little better odds getting a better player 4-5 than you do 6-7 but not significantly.

That's why I don't believe in tanking. The spurs 2/3 of there big 3 during there run were not high picks. Then Duncan was the 1st pick.

I believe if you could get the 1st pick by tanking do it BC you have a great chance, but if you can't guarantee the 1st pick which you never can then it's not worth it.

[Kjdills13]

How would Suns fans feel about Wesley Matthews (18.5M this season, player option at 19.5M next season) + Dwight Powell + 2 2nd rounders + Dallas' 2018 1st top 6 protected (indefinitely) for cap space?

I would feel bad.

Not enough assets back for over 20 million in cap

[Mulhollanddrive]

We could have had Cousins, George, Butler if we chose to flip our roster, but since we didn't the only comparable option is elite draft picks.

[BobbieL]

How would Suns fans feel about Wesley Matthews (18.5M this season, player option at 19.5M next season) + Dwight Powell + 2 2nd rounders + Dallas' 2018 1st top 6 protected (indefinitely) for cap space?

I would feel bad.

Not enough assets back for over 20 million in cap

I would feel very very bad too since he has a player options so that means he is taking it plus have to take Powell and lastly, I am not sure the Suns can take on that much salary - that's like 25m - I think if they renounce Len, the most they have is 19m. Now if the Mavs want to take Back Knight as was said - I might think a bit harder - but leave Powell in Dallas

I feel better about Kanter for Knight straight up as that at least saves some cash but more importantly, "clean in 2019"

Suns do need to get a pass first PG - that's why Rubio was pretty solid choice.

[BobbieL]

Evan Sidery (from BSoTS) apparently talked to Woj at SL today.

Hard to believe there is not a market out there e for Len even at an offer of 6-7m - unless he turned down

[Frank Lee]

We could have had Cousins, George, Butler if we chose to flip our roster, but since we didn't the only comparable option is elite draft picks.

This
then
that

The success of the number 1 pick speaks for itself.

But after pick 3 it's a crapshoot.

Yes you have a little better odds getting a better player 4-5 than you do 6-7 but not significantly.

That's why I don't believe in tanking. The spurs 2/3 of there big 3 during there run were not high picks. Then Duncan was the 1st pick.

I believe if you could get the 1st pick by tanking do it BC you have a great chance, but if you can't guarantee the 1st pick which you never can then it's not worth it.

Who exactly coined the phrase 'TIMELINE' ? Has the front office embraced that as their new marketing scheme...ala 'The Hydra" ? If not, you know some gimmicky hype twister is soon to be thrust upon us. We all know who is going to be the PromoPosterBoy....Is this the season of 'The Book Club' or will they have an All Hands On Deck approach? The Timeline is, to me, is annoying. Stay off my yard.

[BobbieL]

We could have had Cousins, George, Butler if we chose to flip our roster, but since we didn't the only comparable option is elite draft picks.

This
then
that

The success of the number 1 pick speaks for itself.

But after pick 3 it's a crapshoot.

Yes you have a little better odds getting a better player 4-5 than you do 6-7 but not significantly.

That's why I don't believe in tanking. The spurs 2/3 of there big 3 during there run were not high picks. Then Duncan was the 1st pick.

I believe if you could get the 1st pick by tanking do it BC you have a great chance, but if you can't guarantee the 1st pick which you never can then it's not worth it.

Who exactly coined the phrase 'TIMELINE' ? Has the front office embraced that as their new marketing scheme...ala 'The Hydra" ? If not, you know some gimmicky hype twister is soon to be thrust upon us. We all know who is going to be the PromoPosterBoy....Is this the season of 'The Book Club' or will they have an All Hands On Deck approach? The Timeline is, to me, is annoying. Stay off my yard.

I am not sure who coined #TheTimeline - probably somebody from Bright Side of the Suns - but Bickley used it in an article I believe and Gambo I think used it yeasterday

[darealjuice]

A couple mediocre performances in SL has completely turned this place upside down lol. Stop tripping guys, it's Summer League. The body language has been bad from Quese at times, but let's not pretend that wasn't something people were worried about coming into the league, and let's also not pretend you wouldn't look pissed going from closing the season out with a guy like Ulis running the point to playing with a PG that frequently breaks out of the offense to create his own shot without letting the offense run it's course.

This is where teams try new things and work on what players aren't good at. We're not going to see Marquese Chriss set up for mid-post isolations every other possession or getting doubles thrown at him, we're not going to have Mike James pounding the shot clock away and pissing off his teammates because he wants to unsuccessfully do everything himself, we're not going to have a non-shooter like DJJ playing the 2 paired with another mediocre shooter like JJ on the wing and killing spacing. Success in SL is largely about guard play, and the guards we brought to SL are bad. I expected better too, but it's nothing to get knotted up about.

[carey]

I'm not "trippin" but Bender and Chriss should both look better as 2nd year players. They've been unimpressive.

I'll concede that neither are players that can create their own shot, an important skill to SL success, and they are playing with a PG that is only interested in making the flashy pass instead of the right one.

I expected Bender to look better than he has. I'm disappointed. I"d love for him to shoot 50% or better just once. He was 4-7 in the first half yesterday and then predictably he wet the bed in the 2nd half.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Rebuilds are a risky path. You HAVE to strike gold with a couple of draft picks and/or acquisitions. To put winning on hold with all your young eggs in one basket typically falls short as the chances of these one and done rookies actually panning out, and it coming together simultaneously is a moonshot. McDo has done just this.

Now it does appear he has tried to add quality veteran pieces, but falling short in adding top tier talent. He has tried and failed at the 'remain competitive and rebuild' plan. I know, the argument against winning is worse draft picks.... but if anything, the recent success of later picks, and stalled returns on early ones shows that the overall talent is so generic that here are not but one or two NBA ready players each year. To bank on a succession of Lotto selections as your 'Plan for the future' is a thin ice pond stroll. Look at us right now.... Len ? whoopteedoo... so we turn to Chris and Bender ? two PFs who have the potential, but not the yet the proof. And this is our foundation? If not for Booker, McDo would be McDone here.

You can latch onto the excuse laden marketing ploy 'TIMELINE', myopically justifying the actions of the FO.... But to me, it is more of an explanation/excuse for the past two/three years and asking all to look/accept the current squad in a smokey mirror.

Well short of signing Lebron James (and they tried to do that) aren't all team building methods risky? There's no sure fire way of doing it and you can find examples of all the methods failing and succeeding. For instance you could trade for a guy like Cousins or George but still only win in the high 30's and then watch them walk out the door next summer for nothing and actually be in a much worse place roster wise than they are now.

What team building route would you prefer they take?

Now I'm not saying just going young means that McD gets to keep his job forever. There's accountability in this route too in that you have to pick and develop the right players. If some of the young guys don't show signs of development this season it might be time for a regime change. But it should be pointed out the Sixers model never was about getting ALL the picks right in fact it was built with the exact idea that some draft picks would flop but that if you have enough high ones the odds are in favor of some of them succeeding. Again this is not assured to work but in some ways the draft strategy is the most controllable because if you lose you are going to pick high where as if you go the FA strategy you might not land your guys or if you go the trade route guys might leave once they are UFA's.

[bwgood77]

A couple mediocre performances in SL has completely turned this place upside down lol. Stop tripping guys, it's Summer League. The body language has been bad from Quese at times, but let's not pretend that wasn't something people were worried about coming into the league, and let's also not pretend you wouldn't look pissed going from closing the season out with a guy like Ulis running the point to playing with a PG that frequently breaks out of the offense to create his own shot without letting the offense run it's course.

This is where teams try new things and work on what players aren't good at. We're not going to see Marquese Chriss set up for mid-post isolations every other possession or getting doubles thrown at him, we're not going to have Mike James pounding the shot clock away and pissing off his teammates because he wants to unsuccessfully do everything himself, we're not going to have a non-shooter like DJJ playing the 2 paired with another mediocre shooter like JJ on the wing and killing spacing. Success in SL is largely about guard play, and the guards we brought to SL are bad. I expected better too, but it's nothing to get knotted up about.

Great post. People go from very excited about our team to very down on them based on two summer league games where we start DJJ at SG.