Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devastating together?

Moderators: Domejandro, infinite11285, Harry Garris, ken6199, Dirk, bisme37, KingDavid, bwgood77, zimpy27, cupcakesnake

Gil
Starter
Posts: 2,379
And1: 1,283
Joined: Feb 15, 2012

Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devastating together? 

Post#1 » by Gil » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:49 am

There's been narrative ever since the trade was made of them being a bad fit because they're both ball-dominant but Harden seems to be looking forward to playing off the ball more.

"The last 13 years, he's had to dominate the ball so much because he didn't have somebody to help create plays for him," Harden said. "I know how I felt the last five years the same way, having to dominate the ball. It feels good to get a catch-and-shoot opportunity or to just run the floor and not have to worry about having to make a play every possession.

"It's going to be fun. There's no point guard, no shooting guard. We just go out there and make plays and make our team better."


He cares enough that he personally lobbied for Morey to sign point guard Ty Lawson in the offseason, and although he recognizes that means less ball-dominant play for himself, a man with the eighth-highest usage rate in the NBA last season, he recognizes this not as a threat to his stardom, but as a way to enhance it.

"I'm looking forward to playing off the ball," Harden says, also telling Torre his goal this season is to improve his efficiency and join just the six other players in NBA history in the 50-40-90 club.

It isn't the first time he's repeated those comments as well.

http://www.red94.net/harden-im-looking-forward-to-playing-off-the-ball/16028/#



Chris Paul essentially echoed the same thoughts in this interview as well so why does everyone seem to think they won't work together despite being elite shooters in catch & shoot situations.

Seems to me like they're ball-dominant players out of necessity not because they're selfish players. I'm sure every NBA star would love to play in a Warriors style offense where you get easy layups & open shots because you're surrounded by so much talent & shooters.
User avatar
Onus
RealGM
Posts: 18,333
And1: 5,133
Joined: May 12, 2008
Location: NOA

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#2 » by Onus » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:55 am

I think they're going to have an awesome offense together. Cp will have to adjust mostly due to the pace and being a control freak but they're going to be really good together.
Most 4th Quarter Points in Final since 1991
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5 (61.1% TS)
2015 Stephen Curry 10.8 (75.1% TS)
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7 (55.1% TS)
1998 Michael Jordan 10.6 (50.6% TS)
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3 (68.0% TS)
Moochthemonkey
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,823
And1: 1,579
Joined: Jul 25, 2006
Location: AZ
 

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#3 » by Moochthemonkey » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:55 am

They'll be fine. Both are high IQ players and MDA is an offensive mastermind.
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 93,297
And1: 57,074
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#4 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:00 am

I think they could be, but I also think it won't work as well as people might think. You KNOW they both want the ball in their hands and making all the decisions all the time. Paul SHOULD win out if there is a choice, but Harden is the incumbent. I can also see it working out badly. And honestly, if they get Melo, I think it makes it worse...with either of these guys you want catch and shoot guys around them, but with BOTH?...to add iso Melo? It makes zero sense to me...I think Anderson just fits better.
righterwriter
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,775
And1: 5,535
Joined: Apr 30, 2013
     

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#5 » by righterwriter » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:03 am

They will be devastating, but not in the way that you mean it.

Has there ever been a time in NBA history where such ball dominant guards suddenly changed their game to defer to another player?
If one of them had an attitude like Durant where he literally just didn't care about having the ball in his hands and only wanted to win, and there was a team chemistry/leadership which could straighten one guy out when he started falling into old habits, then I'd give it a better chance of succeeding. But I just don't see it with these two guys and in Houston.
User avatar
raptor jesus
RealGM
Posts: 10,617
And1: 22,003
Joined: Feb 12, 2011
 

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#6 » by raptor jesus » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:04 am

Yes I think they'll be fantastic together, especially w/ D'antoni as an architect. Two prolific pick and roll playmakers w/ shooting and lob targets around them is going to be a nightmare for opposing defences.
BloodNinja
Analyst
Posts: 3,542
And1: 5,565
Joined: Mar 05, 2016

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#7 » by BloodNinja » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:11 am

They should be devastating but at the same time if it doesn't work out as expected it wouldn't surprise either.
Spens1
RealGM
Posts: 13,865
And1: 3,878
Joined: Jun 16, 2015
     

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#8 » by Spens1 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:15 am

there will be no middle ground, it will either click and be devastating or be really bad for everyone involved and be a disaster that will set back the rockets many years.
User avatar
thamadkant
Suns Forum Picker of Cherries
Posts: 16,178
And1: 7,771
Joined: Jan 06, 2007
 

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#9 » by thamadkant » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:16 am

The main benefit is when they stagger minutes. 48 minutes of Harden or Paul or both.
User avatar
Domejandro
Forum Mod - Timberwolves
Forum Mod - Timberwolves
Posts: 18,333
And1: 26,694
Joined: Jul 29, 2014
Location: San Diego, California

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#10 » by Domejandro » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:17 am

bwgood77 wrote:I think they could be, but I also think it won't work as well as people might think. You KNOW they both want the ball in their hands and making all the decisions all the time. Paul SHOULD win out if there is a choice, but Harden is the incumbent. I can also see it working out badly. And honestly, if they get Melo, I think it makes it worse...with either of these guys you want catch and shoot guys around them, but with BOTH?...to add iso Melo? It makes zero sense to me...I think Anderson just fits better.

Carmelo is a devastating catch-and-shoot player, the stigma that he is just an isolation player just isn't accurate given his skill-sets.
User avatar
Phreak50
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,928
And1: 10,960
Joined: Feb 01, 2014

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#11 » by Phreak50 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:17 am

Less wins than last year and trouble making it work is my prediction.

And if they don't add Melo it may well be a failed experiment.
Goner
Pro Prospect
Posts: 908
And1: 695
Joined: May 28, 2015
 

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#12 » by Goner » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:19 am

Yes, and D'Antoni is the perfect architect to bring together ball dominant egos. Pfffffft.
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 93,297
And1: 57,074
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#13 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:24 am

Domejandro wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:I think they could be, but I also think it won't work as well as people might think. You KNOW they both want the ball in their hands and making all the decisions all the time. Paul SHOULD win out if there is a choice, but Harden is the incumbent. I can also see it working out badly. And honestly, if they get Melo, I think it makes it worse...with either of these guys you want catch and shoot guys around them, but with BOTH?...to add iso Melo? It makes zero sense to me...I think Anderson just fits better.

Carmelo is a devastating catch-and-shoot player, the stigma that he is just an isolation player just isn't accurate given his skill-sets.


I think he can be one, but is that his tendency? Or would he rather dribble for a bit? I didn't get the sense D'Antoni was a big fan of his play, though I may be wrong, but it seems like D'Antoni would rather have a guy like Anderson at the 4 who shot at a higher % from deep (I'll admit I haven't checked the #s so just guessing on that one).
User avatar
AdagioPace
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,690
And1: 7,123
Joined: Jan 03, 2017
Location: Contado di Molise
   

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#14 » by AdagioPace » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:30 am

Im sure the flopping is going to be of mastodontic proportions. The rest is unknown
"La natura gode della natura; la natura trionfa sulla natura; la natura domina la natura" - Ostanes
JGOJustin
Pro Prospect
Posts: 763
And1: 726
Joined: Feb 04, 2015
 

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#15 » by JGOJustin » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:34 am

Too many times IMO people overthink things. Two players as great as Harden and Paul are, will figure it out. They'll make it worth. Both have the skillsets to be fluid in that regard. Will that result in a deep playoff run is another story though.

What I'm curious about, is that IF it ends up working out just "okay" or IF it indeed doesn't work out as well as they thought it would and it's a 1st or 2nd round exit, what does Houston do with Paul? I'm assuming they have a max deal lined up with Paul, but would they go through with it?
@JamalCristopher - Come Back To California https://soundcloud.com/jamalcristopher/california
Rednation91
Pro Prospect
Posts: 803
And1: 524
Joined: Jul 05, 2016
     

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#16 » by Rednation91 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:47 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Domejandro wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:I think they could be, but I also think it won't work as well as people might think. You KNOW they both want the ball in their hands and making all the decisions all the time. Paul SHOULD win out if there is a choice, but Harden is the incumbent. I can also see it working out badly. And honestly, if they get Melo, I think it makes it worse...with either of these guys you want catch and shoot guys around them, but with BOTH?...to add iso Melo? It makes zero sense to me...I think Anderson just fits better.

Carmelo is a devastating catch-and-shoot player, the stigma that he is just an isolation player just isn't accurate given his skill-sets.


I think he can be one, but is that his tendency? Or would he rather dribble for a bit? I didn't get the sense D'Antoni was a big fan of his play, though I may be wrong, but it seems like D'Antoni would rather have a guy like Anderson at the 4 who shot at a higher % from deep (I'll admit I haven't checked the #s so just guessing on that one).

Anderson is a better shooter and has unlimited range but thats all he brings. With melo, the rockets will be much harder to defend. He is much more versatile than ryno. Many times last yr(especially later on) harden would whip a pass to ryno for a 3, ryno would hesitate and either pass back to harden(forcing harden to create AGAIN) or try to score himself (which usually ended up with him spinning into a dirk fadeaway). Melo can shoot, create, drive. Another negative for ryno is that he shoots ALOT WORSE at home than on the road. IMO melo would help diversify the offense immensely
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 93,297
And1: 57,074
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#17 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:56 am

JGOJustin wrote:Too many times IMO people overthink things. Two players as great as Harden and Paul are, will figure it out. They'll make it worth. Both have the skillsets to be fluid in that regard. Will that result in a deep playoff run is another story though.

What I'm curious about, is that IF it ends up working out just "okay" or IF it indeed doesn't work out as well as they thought it would and it's a 1st or 2nd round exit, what does Houston do with Paul? I'm assuming they have a max deal lined up with Paul, but would they go through with it?


The thing is, when you have two ball dominant people, it's tougher. When Nash joined Kobe Nash basically became a spot up shooter (which actually was fine because he is a great shooter) but he didn't have the opportunity to run things himself...the was with D'Antoni too...I mean we are talking the same coach where they acquired Nash and Howard to join Gasol and Kobe. It didn't work very well.

I think they are set up fairly well though but I don't think it will be as easy as you think...it will be interesting to see who bring the ball up the court and directs the offense..they have to share it, but I honestly can't see either wanting to, especially Paul. I'm guessing Harden had to tell him it's his deal and will have the ball in his hands otherwise I can't imagine Paul wanting that unless he just wanted out of LA so bad he would be happy playing off ball.
JGOJustin
Pro Prospect
Posts: 763
And1: 726
Joined: Feb 04, 2015
 

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#18 » by JGOJustin » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:00 am

bwgood77 wrote:
JGOJustin wrote:Too many times IMO people overthink things. Two players as great as Harden and Paul are, will figure it out. They'll make it worth. Both have the skillsets to be fluid in that regard. Will that result in a deep playoff run is another story though.

What I'm curious about, is that IF it ends up working out just "okay" or IF it indeed doesn't work out as well as they thought it would and it's a 1st or 2nd round exit, what does Houston do with Paul? I'm assuming they have a max deal lined up with Paul, but would they go through with it?


The thing is, when you have two ball dominant people, it's tougher. When Nash joined Kobe Nash basically became a spot up shooter (which actually was fine because he is a great shooter) but he didn't have the opportunity to run things himself...the was with D'Antoni too...I mean we are talking the same coach where they acquired Nash and Howard to join Gasol and Kobe. It didn't work very well.

I think they are set up fairly well though but I don't think it will be as easy as you think...it will be interesting to see who bring the ball up the court and directs the offense..they have to share it, but I honestly can't see either wanting to, especially Paul. I'm guessing Harden had to tell him it's his deal and will have the ball in his hands otherwise I can't imagine Paul wanting that unless he just wanted out of LA so bad he would be happy playing off ball.


I am not saying that it'll be easy as much as I'm saying that it'll get done, and the Rockets will be really good health provided. The ceiling of a team with both Chris and James is just way too high to even seriously consider the "fit" of the two. It'll probably take time, but I think they'll end up being a really good team, and a really tough out in the western conference.

And if the pairing doesn't work, it still was a gamble that you had to take.

Also too, if I recall when Nash/Howard/Bryant/Gasol were all healthy on the floor, they won a lot of games even with Nash being old as hell. They were pretty good. Ultimately too much HoF talent for ME isn't a real concern. First world problem.s
@JamalCristopher - Come Back To California https://soundcloud.com/jamalcristopher/california
ckman
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,325
And1: 2,186
Joined: Jul 02, 2014
 

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#19 » by ckman » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:18 am

Harden's act on the court don't back up his word. Look at his games from last few years, he always disinterested and just stood there when playing off the ball.
Paul never played off the ball as well. They need the ball in their hands to get into rhythm. It's going to cause problem for them.
Both are talented players that they might still figure it out, but it's gonna take more than a season for them to adapt to each other imo
User avatar
Young_Star11
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 22,282
And1: 1,767
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Location: RealGM
   

Re: Anyone else think Chris Paul & James Harden will be devasting together? 

Post#20 » by Young_Star11 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:21 am

They've both been saying the right things so far.

Great players would make it work.

CP3 almost beat the Jazz (a very respectable 51-win team) by himself.

Return to The General Board