Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD

[Disgruntled]

If THjr gets the production the next few seasons that he did last season from Jan1 on the rest of the season... is he worth the contract?

No absolutely not. Hardaway is an above average scorer at this point.That's it. Every other facet of his game is either weak or terrible. Scoring 18points but doing absolutely nothing else is not going to cut it in my book at all. No rebounding, no passing, questionable shots, low bball IQ. Some posters say his defense is not abysmal anymore...when I say him play last season I thought his defense was still terrible but some disagree.

You are just a disgruntled ballboy so please excuse me for telling you to stfu.

Of course I am disgruntled. How can you not be disgruntled if you have followed the Knicks for 25 years? It is sickening to have an idiot like Steve Mills be FOBO after all the terrible years I went through as a knick fan. A guy that on his first day as FOBO shells out 23mill. for Baker and Hardaway. An idiot that ties up an all-star level salary to two players with a mediocre ceiling. It's just plain idiot and sets the franchise back for another 3 years. Then he goes out and adds a guy that made a terrible job in Orlando...a guy that just tied Orlando to two contracts that many consider among the top 10 worst in the league (Fournier and Biyombo).....tell me what is positive right now?

[stuporman]

No absolutely not. Hardaway is an above average scorer at this point.That's it. Every other facet of his game is either weak or terrible. Scoring 18points but doing absolutely nothing else is not going to cut it in my book at all. No rebounding, no passing, questionable shots, low bball IQ. Some posters say his defense is not abysmal anymore...when I say him play last season I thought his defense was still terrible but some disagree.

You are just a disgruntled ballboy so please excuse me for telling you to stfu.

Of course I am disgruntled. How can you not be disgruntled if you have followed the Knicks for 25 years? It is sickening to have an idiot like Steve Mills be FOBO after all the terrible years I went through as a knick fan. A guy that on his first day as FOBO shells out 23mill. for Baker and Hardaway. An idiot that ties up an all-star level salary to two players with a mediocre ceiling. It's just plain idiot and sets the franchise back for another 3 years. Then he goes out and adds a guy that made a terrible job in Orlando...a guy that just tied Orlando to two contracts that many consider among the top 10 worst in the league (Fournier and Biyombo).....tell me what is positive right now?

How about not letting something as insignificant as grown men playing a game cause you so much distress.....just a thought.

[Disgruntled]

You are just a disgruntled ballboy so please excuse me for telling you to stfu.

Of course I am disgruntled. How can you not be disgruntled if you have followed the Knicks for 25 years? It is sickening to have an idiot like Steve Mills be FOBO after all the terrible years I went through as a knick fan. A guy that on his first day as FOBO shells out 23mill. for Baker and Hardaway. An idiot that ties up an all-star level salary to two players with a mediocre ceiling. It's just plain idiot and sets the franchise back for another 3 years. Then he goes out and adds a guy that made a terrible job in Orlando...a guy that just tied Orlando to two contracts that many consider among the top 10 worst in the league (Fournier and Biyombo).....tell me what is positive right now?

How about not letting something as insignificant as grown men playing a game cause you so much distress.....just a thought.

That's likely true. Just dissapointed that after all this years it feels like we hired back Isiah Thomas and added Scott Layden to the front office.

[Disgruntled]

5. Were Tim Hardaway Jr. and Ron Baker’s pacts fiscally prudent?

Mills finally will explain why he needed to go as high as four years, $71 million for Hardaway. Obviously, the Knicks were convinced by agent Mark Bartelstein the Hawks might match if they came in too much lower.

After losing out on Dion Waiters, Mills became desperate and decided to make an investment into a 25-year-old they consider on the rise. When the Knicks drafted him in 2013, their scouts envisioned a budding All-Star.

Figure Perry, in contact with the Knicks by July 1, was appraised of the Hardaway pursuit. The two-year, $9 million Baker package is still a mystery Mills needs to address. The Knicks may have simply miscalculated the market when they came to an agreement for the room exception ($4.3 million).

Worse, if Baker, a solid defender and team guy, develops significantly, he can opt out after the first year. It’s doubtful Mills foresaw Raymond Felton/Jeff Green types signing for veteran minimums. Most executives considered Baker a minimum signee.

So essentially Mills gave 71mill. to a player that Atlanta felt was worth around 45mill. and then he gives 5mill. a year to a player most executives considered a minimum signing. In essence, Hardaway and Baker are going to eat up 10mill. more in capspace than most other executives would have given them or what they are worth.
I find the bolded part interesting about the Baker deal. First Mills goes out and vastly overpays him...and then if that 1% chance comes true and Baker explodes and improves vastly.....well then he can opt out and sign a bigger deal. Where do the Knicks win with that deal?

http://nypost.com/2017/07/17/whats-with-carmelo-and-4-big-questions-for-new-knicks-regime/

[stuporman]

Of course I am disgruntled. How can you not be disgruntled if you have followed the Knicks for 25 years? It is sickening to have an idiot like Steve Mills be FOBO after all the terrible years I went through as a knick fan. A guy that on his first day as FOBO shells out 23mill. for Baker and Hardaway. An idiot that ties up an all-star level salary to two players with a mediocre ceiling. It's just plain idiot and sets the franchise back for another 3 years. Then he goes out and adds a guy that made a terrible job in Orlando...a guy that just tied Orlando to two contracts that many consider among the top 10 worst in the league (Fournier and Biyombo).....tell me what is positive right now?

How about not letting something as insignificant as grown men playing a game cause you so much distress.....just a thought.

That's likely true. Just dissapointed that after all this years it feels like we hired back Isiah Thomas and added Scott Layden to the front office.

If you are a Knick fan as long as you claim to be, them disappointing should be common place by now.

[Disgruntled]

How about not letting something as insignificant as grown men playing a game cause you so much distress.....just a thought.

That's likely true. Just dissapointed that after all this years it feels like we hired back Isiah Thomas and added Scott Layden to the front office.

If you are a Knick fan as long as you claim to be, them disappointing should be common place by now.

You know in real life you usually get held accountable for what you do etc. I think it just riles me up the wrong way that a franchise like the Knicks is being held hostage by an owner that has no clue, by an idiot like Mills as the FOBO and absolutely zero accountability. After the series of mistakes the Knicks commited over the last 17 years---a regime change happens and just one week later we are back at square one where the replacement significantly overpays for mediocre talent and then proceeds to hire a guy that just handed Orlando its worst stretch as a franchise.

[dakomish23]

Carmelo's NTC has people shook around here when it comes to THJr.

Him having a player option and trade kicker doesn't mean anything. He can agree to lower the trade kicker amount, the same way Chris Paul did to join the Rockets by taking $500,000 instead of the $3.6M he was owed if traded.

Nah. What's got people "shook" is that no matter who the GM is, we keep giving out way more than we're supposed to when signing someone.

Even more "shook" that fans such as yourself think it's ok. If you don't expect better, why should they give it to you?

[Disgruntled]

This article sums up the stupidity of Steve Mills and also sums up what I feel about the deal. Both signings (but especially the Hardaway signing) feel so terribly off----it almost feels like a 5 year old Hardaway fan was negotiating the deal on the Knick side. Heck I even think that the Knicks would have had to pay less if Tim Hardaway Senior was negotiating on the Knicks side.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2720347-theyre-nuts-nba-execs-agents-lol-at-knicks-71m-tim-hardaway-jr-offer

[Disgruntled]

You know who is the closest thing to Tim Hardaway? IMO it is Louis Williams. If you look at their career trajectory, both are almost identical. Good scoring punches that do nothing else on the court. And do you know what kind of contract Williams signed just two years ago at the of 27 coming of a season where he averaged 16points per game? He signed for 3years/21mill.
Now I concede that Hardaway may have slightly more upside as he is more athletic and younger. But nowhere near 11mill. per year more. A 27/28 year old Lou Williams should have been the right gauge for what someone like Hardaway is worth.

[stuporman]

That's likely true. Just dissapointed that after all this years it feels like we hired back Isiah Thomas and added Scott Layden to the front office.

If you are a Knick fan as long as you claim to be, them disappointing should be common place by now.

You know in real life you usually get held accountable for what you do etc. I think it just riles me up the wrong way that a franchise like the Knicks is being held hostage by an owner that has no clue, by an idiot like Mills as the FOBO and absolutely zero accountability. After the series of mistakes the Knicks commited over the last 17 years---a regime change happens and just one week later we are back at square one where the replacement significantly overpays for mediocre talent and then proceeds to hire a guy that just handed Orlando its worst stretch as a franchise.

You are clearly allowing a bias to cloud your perspective, it's battered fan syndrome, a sort of ptsd and while it isn't unjustified, it surely isn't mentally healthy.

By the way, Perry wasn't the final say in Orlando, he was an assistant who's purview was negotiating trades, not drafting or even the final say on the players involved in the trades, just the contact guy who had to report to and do the bidding of the GM. He hasn't had full control in any of his previous front office positions and it appears he won't get it with the Knicks either which is unnerving to say the least but how much remains to be seen.

Although to lay the whole blame on him in saying he handed a franchise as if it were completely his doing is undoubtedly skewed. If you are going to use that measure then you have to give him the same level of credit for a title in Detroit which would seems just as silly in my opinion. It seems he had more control in Sac for the short time he was there but still was just an assistant GM.

I didn't really like THjr that much before his drafting and was not impressed with his contributions while he was in NY that first time. Glad he was traded and not particularly excited by his time in Atl but his last 50 reg season games were good production though relatively a small sample size. If he can put up 15ppg on good efficiency adding a few rebounds and assists with some semblance of defensive energy his contract won't be as bad as some are predicting.

The Knicks might even be able to move it for assets in a couple years since with the cap increases it will look much better if he is producing but that isn't guaranteed because he's been inconsistent going back through his pro career to college with alternating up and down years.

Yes, there's little confidence instilled by this franchise under Dolan but being a perpetually disgruntled pessimist is no way to go through life about anything.

[Amsterdam]

No absolutely not. Hardaway is an above average scorer at this point.That's it. Every other facet of his game is either weak or terrible. Scoring 18points but doing absolutely nothing else is not going to cut it in my book at all. No rebounding, no passing, questionable shots, low bball IQ. Some posters say his defense is not abysmal anymore...when I say him play last season I thought his defense was still terrible but some disagree.

You are just a disgruntled ballboy so please excuse me for telling you to stfu.

Of course I am disgruntled. How can you not be disgruntled if you have followed the Knicks for 25 years? It is sickening to have an idiot like Steve Mills be FOBO after all the terrible years I went through as a knick fan. A guy that on his first day as FOBO shells out 23mill. for Baker and Hardaway. An idiot that ties up an all-star level salary to two players with a mediocre ceiling. It's just plain idiot and sets the franchise back for another 3 years. Then he goes out and adds a guy that made a terrible job in Orlando...a guy that just tied Orlando to two contracts that many consider among the top 10 worst in the league (Fournier and Biyombo).....tell me what is positive right now?

Ok Cool, now that you indicated how "Disgruntled" you are:

[Stannis]

Signing a player based on "ifs" is a great way to make bad contracts, plain and simple. This isn't a gamble that "rebuilding" teams are supposed to make.

[E-Balla]

If you are a Knick fan as long as you claim to be, them disappointing should be common place by now.

You know in real life you usually get held accountable for what you do etc. I think it just riles me up the wrong way that a franchise like the Knicks is being held hostage by an owner that has no clue, by an idiot like Mills as the FOBO and absolutely zero accountability. After the series of mistakes the Knicks commited over the last 17 years---a regime change happens and just one week later we are back at square one where the replacement significantly overpays for mediocre talent and then proceeds to hire a guy that just handed Orlando its worst stretch as a franchise.

You are clearly allowing a bias to cloud your perspective, it's battered fan syndrome, a sort of ptsd and while it isn't unjustified, it surely isn't mentally healthy.

By the way, Perry wasn't the final say in Orlando, he was an assistant who's purview was negotiating trades, not drafting or even the final say on the players involved in the trades, just the contact guy who had to report to and do the bidding of the GM. He hasn't had full control in any of his previous front office positions and it appears he won't get it with the Knicks either which is unnerving to say the least but how much remains to be seen.

Although to lay the whole blame on him in saying he handed a franchise as if it were completely his doing is undoubtedly skewed. If you are going to use that measure then you have to give him the same level of credit for a title in Detroit which would seems just as silly in my opinion. It seems he had more control in Sac for the short time he was there but still was just an assistant GM.

I didn't really like THjr that much before his drafting and was not impressed with his contributions while he was in NY that first time. Glad he was traded and not particularly excited by his time in Atl but his last 50 reg season games were good production though relatively a small sample size. If he can put up 15ppg on good efficiency adding a few rebounds and assists with some semblance of defensive energy his contract won't be as bad as some are predicting.

The Knicks might even be able to move it for assets in a couple years since with the cap increases it will look much better if he is producing but that isn't guaranteed because he's been inconsistent going back through his pro career to college with alternating up and down years.

Yes, there's little confidence instilled by this franchise under Dolan but being a perpetually disgruntled pessimist is no way to go through life about anything.

Tim averaged 15 ppg over the whole 82 game season. That's not a small sample. Over the last 50 games he averaged 17/3/3. Still not a small sample. The guy we traded aay was stuck on the bench. Like I said before if you assume every player we get is going to regress just give up and stop watching.

[GettinitDone]

I ain't worried about cats like THJr who go to the gyms after signing a contract.

It's those who go to parties, food joints, over da top hedonistic trips after signing a contract that should be dragged away by Dolan's security guards.

[Crunchknicks1]

Tim Hardaway avg 17.5 in his 30 starts. On that team he had Millsap and there point as the 2 main. Optikns

[Crunchknicks1]

Tim Hardaway was the 3rd option and he only 25 and he is pointing upwards. He have more upside then low Williams do

[Billy Goat]

Tim Hardaway was the 3rd option and he only 25 and he is pointing upwards. He have more upside then low Williams do

Rule of thumb generally during a "rebuild" is have young guys outplaying their contract ie Willy. Doing the reverse and hoping for the best with Hardaway is how you get in trouble...

[Crunchknicks1]

If Tim Avg 18 4 4 next year shot 46% and 38% from three and play better D like he did last year. If he Avg those stats the next three years this a bad signing ??

[dakomish23]

Signing a player based on "ifs" is a great way to make bad contracts, plain and simple. This isn't a gamble that "rebuilding" teams are supposed to make.

Bingo. Even if they waited till 2019 to make this move, which I wouldn't have done, makes more sense than doing it now.

Be bad and develop the youth you already have.

Use your cap space for assets such as prospects and picks.

Sell high on any win now guys.

The blueprint is pretty damn simple and the opportunity was there this offseason to follow it.

[dakomish23]

If Tim Avg 18 4 4 next year shot 46% and 38% from three and play better D like he did last year. If he Avg those stats the next three years this a bad signing ??

In a vacuum? Too much money and giving the PO / TT are terrible.

In the big picture? Too early in the rebuild to make this type of move. Way better ways to use your cap space.