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OleSchool wrote:Chris76 wrote:Other team centers will have trouble stopping Embiid and Okafor, 2 elite scoring bigs. They will be in foul trouble very quickly.
You do realize that there is a defensive side of the ball, and thats where OK4 fails miserably
OleSchool wrote:Chris76 wrote:Other team centers will have trouble stopping Embiid and Okafor, 2 elite scoring bigs. They will be in foul trouble very quickly.
You do realize that there is a defensive side of the ball, and thats where OK4 fails miserably
76ciology wrote:OleSchool wrote:Chris76 wrote:Other team centers will have trouble stopping Embiid and Okafor, 2 elite scoring bigs. They will be in foul trouble very quickly.
You do realize that there is a defensive side of the ball, and thats where OK4 fails miserably
You do realize that actually its on the other end?
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/9
Sixerscan wrote:76ciology wrote:OleSchool wrote:
You do realize that there is a defensive side of the ball, and thats where OK4 fails miserably
You do realize that actually its on the other end?
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/9
He was 63/65 among centers in drpm. Pretty sure it's both ends.
Chris76 wrote:Sixerscan wrote:76ciology wrote:
You do realize that actually its on the other end?
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/9
He was 63/65 among centers in drpm. Pretty sure it's both ends.
Okafor is the worst offensive big in the league. Do you really believe that?
He scores easily, if not doubled. I know you say he's a ball stopper, but can other players stop him?
Those #s are wrong and you will soon find out when he plays this year with better players.
Sixerscan wrote:Chris76 wrote:Sixerscan wrote:He was 63/65 among centers in drpm. Pretty sure it's both ends.
Okafor is the worst offensive big in the league. Do you really believe that?
He scores easily, if not doubled. I know you say he's a ball stopper, but can other players stop him?
Those #s are wrong and you will soon find out when he plays this year with better players.
Uhh I mean I cited a defensive stat, but yeah I could understand how him holding the ball for 5 seconds at a time before he decides what to do could result in inefficient offense (on top of having literally no idea how to set a good screen, play off the ball etc.), even if he himself makes some cool post moves from time to time. Swing the rock!
Chris76 wrote:Sixerscan wrote:Chris76 wrote:
Okafor is the worst offensive big in the league. Do you really believe that?
He scores easily, if not doubled. I know you say he's a ball stopper, but can other players stop him?
Those #s are wrong and you will soon find out when he plays this year with better players.
Uhh I mean I cited a defensive stat, but yeah I could understand how him holding the ball for 5 seconds at a time before he decides what to do could result in inefficient offense (on top of having literally no idea how to set a good screen, play off the ball etc.), even if he himself makes some cool post moves from time to time. Swing the rock!
Some cool post moves, lets belittle Okafor and act like a big that can create his own shot is useless. He's a talented scorer. Anyway, he looks to be in better shape and should improve in most areas with coaching.
Chris76 wrote:Sixerscan wrote:76ciology wrote:
You do realize that actually its on the other end?
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/9
He was 63/65 among centers in drpm. Pretty sure it's both ends.
Okafor is the worst offensive big in the league. Do you really believe that?
He scores easily, if not doubled. I know you say he's a ball stopper, but can other players stop him?
Those #s are wrong and you will soon find out when he plays this year with better players.
TeamHigh wrote:Chris76 wrote:Sixerscan wrote:He was 63/65 among centers in drpm. Pretty sure it's both ends.
Okafor is the worst offensive big in the league. Do you really believe that?
He scores easily, if not doubled. I know you say he's a ball stopper, but can other players stop him?
Those #s are wrong and you will soon find out when he plays this year with better players.
No, they pretty much are, by definition, not wrong. I'm sure you're going to go through a bunch of mitigating factors about how they don't accurately reflect his offensive skill or ability, but the numbers are correct because they're based on actual box scores from official games that actually counted. Maybe some of these mitigating factors may even have some smidgen of merit.
Your fatal flaw is that you don't seem to understand the role of an NBA defense, maybe because you're Chuck Okafor or you're only a Sixers fan because of some rabid Duke fandom. Their goal is to prevent the opposing offense from scoring as much as possible over the course of any given game. It's not to prevent one player from scoring when the situation perfectly suits his skill set. It literally does not matter if no one can stop him (not even close to true, by the way), if he dribbles the air out of the ball and then you can double him every time and force him to kick out to a guarded wing or guard who is forced to jack up a low percentage 25 footer with the shot clock expiring.
Chris76 wrote:TeamHigh wrote:Chris76 wrote:
Okafor is the worst offensive big in the league. Do you really believe that?
He scores easily, if not doubled. I know you say he's a ball stopper, but can other players stop him?
Those #s are wrong and you will soon find out when he plays this year with better players.
No, they pretty much are, by definition, not wrong. I'm sure you're going to go through a bunch of mitigating factors about how they don't accurately reflect his offensive skill or ability, but the numbers are correct because they're based on actual box scores from official games that actually counted. Maybe some of these mitigating factors may even have some smidgen of merit.
Your fatal flaw is that you don't seem to understand the role of an NBA defense, maybe because you're Chuck Okafor or you're only a Sixers fan because of some rabid Duke fandom. Their goal is to prevent the opposing offense from scoring as much as possible over the course of any given game. It's not to prevent one player from scoring when the situation perfectly suits his skill set. It literally does not matter if no one can stop him (not even close to true, by the way), if he dribbles the air out of the ball and then you can double him every time and force him to kick out to a guarded wing or guard who is forced to jack up a low percentage 25 footer with the shot clock expiring.
The mitigating factors definitely effected Okafor's #s. You can debate that he looked worse than others, but you can't deny that playing with better players are going to help his #s. He had guards that were terrible at defense and feeding the post. Replace them with Simmons, Fultz, and Redick and Okafor's #s will be closer to reality. Sure, they could still be bad, but my point is to give him a chance before giving him away for a bag of Doritos.
Sixerscan wrote:Chris76 wrote:TeamHigh wrote:No, they pretty much are, by definition, not wrong. I'm sure you're going to go through a bunch of mitigating factors about how they don't accurately reflect his offensive skill or ability, but the numbers are correct because they're based on actual box scores from official games that actually counted. Maybe some of these mitigating factors may even have some smidgen of merit.
Your fatal flaw is that you don't seem to understand the role of an NBA defense, maybe because you're Chuck Okafor or you're only a Sixers fan because of some rabid Duke fandom. Their goal is to prevent the opposing offense from scoring as much as possible over the course of any given game. It's not to prevent one player from scoring when the situation perfectly suits his skill set. It literally does not matter if no one can stop him (not even close to true, by the way), if he dribbles the air out of the ball and then you can double him every time and force him to kick out to a guarded wing or guard who is forced to jack up a low percentage 25 footer with the shot clock expiring.
The mitigating factors definitely effected Okafor's #s. You can debate that he looked worse than others, but you can't deny that playing with better players are going to help his #s. He had guards that were terrible at defense and feeding the post. Replace them with Simmons, Fultz, and Redick and Okafor's #s will be closer to reality. Sure, they could still be bad, but my point is to give him a chance before giving him away for a bag of Doritos.
You can say the same thing about mitigating factors impacting the numbers of every other player on the team. Okafor isn't the only guy that had to play with bad teammates. If, for example, Holmes outplayed Okafor with crappy guards, he should continue to outplay him as their teammates get better.
I'm fine with keeping him around and hoping he gets healthy/starts to understand how to play NBA basketball unless some sort of other opportunity comes up. But his "chance" is to show those things and earn the backup center spot going against Holmes every day in camp, preseason, practice etc. He's well past the point where he just blindly gets playing time.
Chris76 wrote:Sixerscan wrote:Chris76 wrote:
The mitigating factors definitely effected Okafor's #s. You can debate that he looked worse than others, but you can't deny that playing with better players are going to help his #s. He had guards that were terrible at defense and feeding the post. Replace them with Simmons, Fultz, and Redick and Okafor's #s will be closer to reality. Sure, they could still be bad, but my point is to give him a chance before giving him away for a bag of Doritos.
You can say the same thing about mitigating factors impacting the numbers of every other player on the team. Okafor isn't the only guy that had to play with bad teammates. If, for example, Holmes outplayed Okafor with crappy guards, he should continue to outplay him as their teammates get better.
I'm fine with keeping him around and hoping he gets healthy/starts to understand how to play NBA basketball unless some sort of other opportunity comes up. But his "chance" is to show those things and earn the backup center spot going against Holmes every day in camp, preseason, practice etc. He's well past the point where he just blindly gets playing time.
Good points. Okafor does have a lot to prove. I like Holmes but they are 2 different players and should be used differently. Okafor has the potential to score 25pts or more within the flow of a good offense, I don't see Holmes having that potential. Anyway, a more focused Okafor can be a valuable player, those #s are misleading for many reasons.
Unbreakable99 wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:Chris76 wrote:Sixerscan wrote:You can say the same thing about mitigating factors impacting the numbers of every other player on the team. Okafor isn't the only guy that had to play with bad teammates. If, for example, Holmes outplayed Okafor with crappy guards, he should continue to outplay him as their teammates get better.
I'm fine with keeping him around and hoping he gets healthy/starts to understand how to play NBA basketball unless some sort of other opportunity comes up. But his "chance" is to show those things and earn the backup center spot going against Holmes every day in camp, preseason, practice etc. He's well past the point where he just blindly gets playing time.
Good points. Okafor does have a lot to prove. I like Holmes but they are 2 different players and should be used differently. Okafor has the potential to score 25pts or more within the flow of a good offense, I don't see Holmes having that potential. Anyway, a more focused Okafor can be a valuable player, those #s are misleading for many reasons.
I'm not sure what part of Okafor's game would work within the "flow of a good offense." He doesn't make quick decisions, he doesn't know how to set a screen, he's not particularly explosive finishing at the rim, he's not a good shooter.
In a lot of ways, his rookie year was close to ideal for him as far as individual scoring (which seems to be what you care about.) The team had limited options and wasn't going anywhere so they may as well let him do his cool post moves. A team with an actual offense and good alternatives isn't going to let him hold the ball and do his isos 20 times a game. We didn't bring in Simmons, Fultz etc to watch Jahlil Okafor spin moves.
This is the entire catch 22 with the guy. If you give him too much of the offense then he tanks it by playing an ineffective style. But if you force him to a secondary role then there's no point in having him on the court because other guys (like Holmes) can do those things better and you still have to worry about Okafor being a complete disaster on defense.
Chris76 wrote:Sixerscan wrote:Chris76 wrote:
Good points. Okafor does have a lot to prove. I like Holmes but they are 2 different players and should be used differently. Okafor has the potential to score 25pts or more within the flow of a good offense, I don't see Holmes having that potential. Anyway, a more focused Okafor can be a valuable player, those #s are misleading for many reasons.
I'm not sure what part of Okafor's game would work within the "flow of a good offense." He doesn't make quick decisions, he doesn't know how to set a screen, he's not particularly explosive finishing at the rim, he's not a good shooter.
In a lot of ways, his rookie year was close to ideal for him as far as individual scoring (which seems to be what you care about.) The team had limited options and wasn't going anywhere so they may as well let him do his cool post moves. A team with an actual offense and good alternatives isn't going to let him hold the ball and do his isos 20 times a game. We didn't bring in Simmons, Fultz etc to watch Jahlil Okafor spin moves.
This is the entire catch 22 with the guy. If you give him too much of the offense then he tanks it by playing an ineffective style. But if you force him to a secondary role then there's no point in having him on the court because other guys (like Holmes) can do those things better and you still have to worry about Okafor being a complete disaster on defense.
I see Okafor as a 6th man, when scoring is needed. I disagree that he can't shoot and wouldn't fit into a system. Definitely, he needs to get stronger and faster. He seems to have the right attitude and looks to be in better shape. He is never going to be perfect, but his shot creating ability is very good at his size. Everybody thinks 3pt shooting is important, but efficient down low scoring is important, too.
Sixerscan wrote:Chris76 wrote:Sixerscan wrote:
I'm not sure what part of Okafor's game would work within the "flow of a good offense." He doesn't make quick decisions, he doesn't know how to set a screen, he's not particularly explosive finishing at the rim, he's not a good shooter.
In a lot of ways, his rookie year was close to ideal for him as far as individual scoring (which seems to be what you care about.) The team had limited options and wasn't going anywhere so they may as well let him do his cool post moves. A team with an actual offense and good alternatives isn't going to let him hold the ball and do his isos 20 times a game. We didn't bring in Simmons, Fultz etc to watch Jahlil Okafor spin moves.
This is the entire catch 22 with the guy. If you give him too much of the offense then he tanks it by playing an ineffective style. But if you force him to a secondary role then there's no point in having him on the court because other guys (like Holmes) can do those things better and you still have to worry about Okafor being a complete disaster on defense.
I see Okafor as a 6th man, when scoring is needed. I disagree that he can't shoot and wouldn't fit into a system. Definitely, he needs to get stronger and faster. He seems to have the right attitude and looks to be in better shape. He is never going to be perfect, but his shot creating ability is very good at his size. Everybody thinks 3pt shooting is important, but efficient down low scoring is important, too.
His style of low post scoring isn't efficient though. He may get his points but if in "creating his shot" he causes the ball to stick and the team to score fewer points when he is on the court, that doesn't really matter. A well functioning offense doesn't need a guy to waste a bunch of time probing a defense to create the sort of shots he gets off.
You keep talking about this "shot creating" like it's some sort of badge of honor. The thing is we have have plenty of evidence that the team is better at offense with more limited guys like Holmes or previously Noel that are able to better operate in a team concept. No one cares about how hard it is to creating the shots that Okafor gets off if the end result is that the team scores fewer points basing the offense around that.
Maybe he shouldn't be trying so hard to create those shots? Conditioning has been a major issue for Okafor, maybe if he doesn't expend all that energy trying to get bad shots up it could be partially solved.
