How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[UcanUwill]

Chris Webber is a guy who was very similar to Jokic. Not quite the passer Jokic is but certainly a very efficient big who could pass the ball. Webbert was a better athlete and defender than Jokic.

I think he is very similar to Arvydas, dont you think? Not as good as prime Arvydas, but its damn close.

Im pretty sure you've never seen prime Arvydas

Sabonis wa obviously better, especially on defense, much bigger and bouncier. His post defense was amazing, good shot blocker as well. But their offense is very similar I think. I am Lithuanian, so I not gonna disrespect Arvydas, but I do think his legend is a bit exaggerative.

[flintsky21]

He's a gifted offensive player with natural feel for the game. But unless he develops his defense, he will be hated on these boards.

[Village Idiot]

Chris Webber is a guy who was very similar to Jokic. Not quite the passer Jokic is but certainly a very efficient big who could pass the ball. Webbert was a better athlete and defender than Jokic.

I think he is very similar to Arvydas, dont you think? Not as good as prime Arvydas, but its damn close.

Sabonis in his 20s was much more athletic than Jokic. The passing skills are similar but Sabonis was in a whole other category.

[The Rebel]

Something aint adding up...

If hes THIS good then people would be making more noise for a Kyrie trade. Stars need stars. StaRs crave stars. Ask Towns, ask AD.

Kyrie + Milsap (not a star but solid) + depth + "about to be top 5 player" would be a title contender.

If you give Milsap + Kyrie + depth to Lebron, Kwahi, Harden, Curry, Durant, etc it = contender, so why not Jokic?

Answer: Because he's not on that level. Slow down.

Jokic is not on that level? Have you watched him play? Could it be that we realize that Kyrie is overrated and thinks more of himself than the rest of us do?

The Nuggets already had the top offense in the league after they inserted Jokic in at starting Center there was a graph on this board a few days ago showing how much each player improved with and without Jokic and it is eye opening. Irving is a PG but he is also a chucker and wants to be the big star of the team. We do not need a guy like that, we got a great fit this summer in Millsap who is happy to play on or off the ball and does not care about who gets the credit.

Jokic is still young, no need to add a big name that does not fit and does nothing to fix the weaknesses of the team, if we were talking about a guy like Chris Paul than I am good with it, I wanted Paul George badly but the front office did not feel like he would stay due to the LA thing, but Kyrie I am not all that interested in unless it is for very cheap.

[The Rebel]

He's a gifted offensive player with natural feel for the game. But unless he develops his defense, he will be hated on these boards.

\

His defense is the most underrated part of his game, he may not be a shot blocker but all advanced stats show he is an above average defender and is the best defender on the Nuggets.

[prs]

He's insanely good. Hes just a big white european that isn't super athletic so it's going to take some people forever to realize it. It's also going to give him the stereotype that hes a poor defender. Dunno why people are more worried about him defensively than they are about KAT. I mean either way they're all young prospects and very few young prospects are good defenders off the bat. Jokic definitely needs to work on his PnR defense (portland tore him apart with the pnr, some other big men have aso given him trouble) and defense in general but hes not putrid or anything. Offensively he is looking like he has ATG potential. His offensive game is out of this world and you could make an argument that hes the most talented passer in the NBA.

Definitely looking forward to watching him this year. Hes one of the most exciting players in the NBA and hopefully hes getting in better shape this summer.

[Bobalob]

Something aint adding up...

If hes THIS good then people would be making more noise for a Kyrie trade. Stars need stars. StaRs crave stars. Ask Towns, ask AD.

Kyrie + Milsap (not a star but solid) + depth + "about to be top 5 player" would be a title contender.

If you give Milsap + Kyrie + depth to Lebron, Kwahi, Harden, Curry, Durant, etc it = contender, so why not Jokic?

Answer: Because he's not on that level. Slow down.

Jokic is not on that level? Have you watched him play? Could it be that we realize that Kyrie is overrated and thinks more of himself than the rest of us do?

The Nuggets already had the top offense in the league after they inserted Jokic in at starting Center there was a graph on this board a few days ago showing how much each player improved with and without Jokic and it is eye opening. Irving is a PG but he is also a chucker and wants to be the big star of the team. We do not need a guy like that, we got a great fit this summer in Millsap who is happy to play on or off the ball and does not care about who gets the credit.

Jokic is still young, no need to add a big name that does not fit and does nothing to fix the weaknesses of the team, if we were talking about a guy like Chris Paul than I am good with it, I wanted Paul George badly but the front office did not feel like he would stay due to the LA thing, but Kyrie I am not all that interested in unless it is for very cheap.

Again, something aint adding up

Jokic: omg he makes the Nuggets have the GREATEST OFFENSE EVER. He's a beast!!

Kyrie: All he does is score. He's overrrated

Buuuuut, the Nuggets had the #3 scoring offense in the league and guess who was right behind them at #4...........Cleveland.

Soooooo as the great Levy from the Wire said: there's a lie in here somewhere.

Seems like a little bit of underdog syndrome. Its not really fun or exciting to big up Kyrie seeing that he's a champion and 25+ ppg on 47% fg and clutch shots and zzzz bo-riiing. Oh but its fun and hip and indie to call Nikola Jokic a top 5 player Nah...

[12footrim]

Perennial MVP candidate level potential if he can stay healthy. Already one of the most impactful players in the entire league. Top 10 in RAPM, RPM, RPM WINS and once he took over at Center the Nuggets instantly became the top offense in the entire league.

That's not even taking into account that he was horrible the first month when Mike Malone was dicking around trying to play him at PF with Nurkic and ruining his confidence and he STILL was top 10 in just about everything. In December and January he had a 32 PER. A 32, that would be the greatest season in NBA history basically, then he hurt his hip I believe and missed a few games but he was still great even after that.

[12footrim]

He's a gifted offensive player with natural feel for the game. But unless he develops his defense, he will be hated on these boards.

\

His defense is the most underrated part of his game, he may not be a shot blocker but all advanced stats show he is an above average defender and is the best defender on the Nuggets.

Amen. He was #32 in the NBA in Defensive RPM and he was #10 in the NBA his rookie year.

[12footrim]

Perennial MVP candidate level potential if he can stay healthy. Already one of the most impactful players in the entire league. Top 10 in RAPM, RPM, RPM WINS and once he took over at Center the Nuggets instantly became the top offense in the entire league.

That's not even taking into account that he was horrible the first month when Mike Malone was dicking around trying to play him at PF with Nurkic and ruining his confidence and he STILL was top 10 in just about everything. In December and January he had a 32 PER. A 32, that would be the greatest season in NBA history basically, then he hurt his hip I believe and missed a few games but he was still great even after that.

Also just to put this in perspective. If you take out that first month Malone was screwing with him at PF, he averaged

19.0ppg
10.9rpg
5.5apg
.8 bpg
.8 rpg
.588% FG (.7 three's per game in that)
.836%FT
In ONLY 29.3 minutes per game

He was the 11th most productive player in the NBA in raw numbers despite playing 5 to 8 minutes less per game than every other player in ahead of him.

Per 36 that's

23ppg
13.4rpg
6.8apg

He was 21 years old putting up all time type production at this age. He also had a huge rookie season that was mainly unnoticed because Malone wouldn't play him like he deserved then either. Many of his per minute stats were top 10 all time rookie despite being 20 years old and most of the guys ahead of him being 21-24 years old like David Robinson or MJ.

[The Rebel]

Something aint adding up...

If hes THIS good then people would be making more noise for a Kyrie trade. Stars need stars. StaRs crave stars. Ask Towns, ask AD.

Kyrie + Milsap (not a star but solid) + depth + "about to be top 5 player" would be a title contender.

If you give Milsap + Kyrie + depth to Lebron, Kwahi, Harden, Curry, Durant, etc it = contender, so why not Jokic?

Answer: Because he's not on that level. Slow down.

Jokic is not on that level? Have you watched him play? Could it be that we realize that Kyrie is overrated and thinks more of himself than the rest of us do?

The Nuggets already had the top offense in the league after they inserted Jokic in at starting Center there was a graph on this board a few days ago showing how much each player improved with and without Jokic and it is eye opening. Irving is a PG but he is also a chucker and wants to be the big star of the team. We do not need a guy like that, we got a great fit this summer in Millsap who is happy to play on or off the ball and does not care about who gets the credit.

Jokic is still young, no need to add a big name that does not fit and does nothing to fix the weaknesses of the team, if we were talking about a guy like Chris Paul than I am good with it, I wanted Paul George badly but the front office did not feel like he would stay due to the LA thing, but Kyrie I am not all that interested in unless it is for very cheap.

Again, something aint adding up

Jokic: omg he makes the Nuggets have the GREATEST OFFENSE EVER. He's a beast!!

Kyrie: All he does is score. He's overrrated

Buuuuut, the Nuggets had the #3 scoring offense in the league and guess who was right behind them at #4...........Cleveland.

Soooooo as the great Levy from the Wire said: there's a lie in here somewhere.

Seems like a little bit of underdog syndrome. Its not really fun or exciting to big up Kyrie seeing that he's a champion and 25+ ppg on 47% fg and clutch shots and zzzz bo-riiing. Oh but its fun and hip and indie to call Nikola Jokic a top 5 player Nah...

Once again the Nuggets had the number 1 offense in the league after Jokic was inserted at starting Center, while playing 5 guys in their top 10 who are 22 or younger, and starting Jameer Nelson for a majority of their games. Irving does nothing to compliment the team nor does he fill any weaknesses, which is perimeter defense and guys who are happy playing off the ball. He wants the ball, he wants to be the star, and the Nuggets do not need him or his attitude.

[The Rebel]

Perennial MVP candidate level potential if he can stay healthy. Already one of the most impactful players in the entire league. Top 10 in RAPM, RPM, RPM WINS and once he took over at Center the Nuggets instantly became the top offense in the entire league.

That's not even taking into account that he was horrible the first month when Mike Malone was dicking around trying to play him at PF with Nurkic and ruining his confidence and he STILL was top 10 in just about everything. In December and January he had a 32 PER. A 32, that would be the greatest season in NBA history basically, then he hurt his hip I believe and missed a few games but he was still great even after that.

Also just to put this in perspective. If you take out that first month Malone was screwing with him at PF, he averaged

19.0ppg
10.9rpg
5.5apg
.8 bpg
.8 rpg
.588% FG (.7 three's per game in that)
.836%FT
In ONLY 29.3 minutes per game

He was the 11th most productive player despite playing 5 to 8 minutes per game than every other player in ahead of him.

Per 36 that's

23ppg
13.4rpg
6.8apg

He was 21 years old putting up all time numbers at this age. He also had a huge rookie season that was mainly unnoticed because Malone wouldn't play him like he deserved then either. Many of his per minute stats were top 10 all time despite being 20 years old and most of the guys ahead of him being 21-24.

It was not really that Jokic was at PF, it was the entire offensive system the Nuggets started last season, which was a drive and kick system with limited outside shooting to spread the floor. Much of the 1st month we had Mudiay, Barton, and Nurkic on the floor with Jokic and either Gallo or Chandler, and the 1st three are not great outside shooters and Barton is actually a terrible spot up shooter.

Once Malone figured out how to use Jokic the whole offense opened up and the team got considerably better. The Nuggets actually did not install the Jokic offense until January 12th, on the London trip, from that point they were 26-19 which would have put them on a 47 win pace even with all the young guys they were playing.

[12footrim]

I don't think there is any question he can be the best statistical player in the NBA and put up a 30+ PER seasons.

The real question is people's biases since he didn't come in the league with a pedigree and top 5 draft pick type. Sterotype that his is bad on defense even when his defensive RPM is great both years.

[Bobalob]

Jokic is not on that level? Have you watched him play? Could it be that we realize that Kyrie is overrated and thinks more of himself than the rest of us do?

The Nuggets already had the top offense in the league after they inserted Jokic in at starting Center there was a graph on this board a few days ago showing how much each player improved with and without Jokic and it is eye opening. Irving is a PG but he is also a chucker and wants to be the big star of the team. We do not need a guy like that, we got a great fit this summer in Millsap who is happy to play on or off the ball and does not care about who gets the credit.

Jokic is still young, no need to add a big name that does not fit and does nothing to fix the weaknesses of the team, if we were talking about a guy like Chris Paul than I am good with it, I wanted Paul George badly but the front office did not feel like he would stay due to the LA thing, but Kyrie I am not all that interested in unless it is for very cheap.

Again, something aint adding up

Jokic: omg he makes the Nuggets have the GREATEST OFFENSE EVER. He's a beast!!

Kyrie: All he does is score. He's overrrated

Buuuuut, the Nuggets had the #3 scoring offense in the league and guess who was right behind them at #4...........Cleveland.

Soooooo as the great Levy from the Wire said: there's a lie in here somewhere.

Seems like a little bit of underdog syndrome. Its not really fun or exciting to big up Kyrie seeing that he's a champion and 25+ ppg on 47% fg and clutch shots and zzzz bo-riiing. Oh but its fun and hip and indie to call Nikola Jokic a top 5 player Nah...

Once again the Nuggets had the number 1 offense in the league after Jokic was inserted at starting Center, while playing 5 guys in their top 10 who are 22 or younger, and starting Jameer Nelson for a majority of their games. Irving does nothing to compliment the team nor does he fill any weaknesses, which is perimeter defense and guys who are happy playing off the ball. He wants the ball, he wants to be the star, and the Nuggets do not need him or his attitude.

I hear you bro...i really do. But when the Nuggets are barely in the playoff race...again,the math aint gon be adding up.

Its cute now bc he's young and came outta nowhere, but fo that very reason hes not being graded on the same scale as the REAL top players. He's graded as a guy with potential.

But ask the top guys, once you are really up that high the only thing left for people to do is nitpick your game. Ask Giannis, as people now are questionign his shot. Uh, hello, ask Kyrie. Ask Melo. Even dig deeper a guy like 7 time all star Joe johnson who was eventually reduced to 'Iso Joe'. Look at the Clippers and Chris Paul. Heck there's a negative article out on him RUIGHT NOW! http://deadspin.com/the-chris-paul-problem-is-an-analytics-problem-1797409440

Harden had 1 bad game and had people questioning his ENTIRE SEASON

So thats why i shake my head at the Jokic lovefest. Know the difference between refreshing style of play, personal favorite vs ACTUAL TOP PLAYER.

He is NOT the latter. Until you reach that level of scrunitny, you aint a great. He's a cute story and personal favorite bc of his playing style.

[khufure]

but yeah whenever I see Jokic play I'm impressed. kid got hops.

this is literally the one thing he doesn't have

Oops, I wrote hops but meant skillz. Thanks for catching that.

[Cormag001]

I rather have porzingis

Watch on YouTube

[Yuri Vaultin]

I find Jokic to be the single most entertaining player to watch in the NBA. At minimum, once a game he makes a play (usually a pass) that leaves me having to pick my jaw off the ground. To think he is only 21 and his coach has just figured out that it's best to run the offense through him.

[Bobalob]

So everyone's case for him is his offensive efficiency? How about his team's win? Great players are NOT judged by PER and team offense rate Ie I dont see James Harden judged soley on offense, in fact i more often than not see it ignored.

If James Harden can win with Trevor Ariza, Eric Gordon, and Clint Capela, Nikola Jokic better LEAD his team to a top 4 seed this year or yall got some explaining to do.

I fear Jokic is gonna go from underrated to OVERrated very quickly.

[mcmurphy]

Seems like a little bit of underdog syndrome. Its not really fun or exciting to big up Kyrie seeing that he's a champion and 25+ ppg on 47% fg and clutch shots and zzzz bo-riiing. Oh but its fun and hip and indie to call Nikola Jokic a top 5 player Nah...

Switch the last season Nuggets (with a sophomore Jokic and in the starting lineup only since mid december) in the East and the 40 wins become at least 45+.
Switch the SF and the wins become at least 60.

[MotownMadness]

It's funny when you watch him cause he's so slow looking but makes everything look so easy. He's out there just running the offense like no big deal, Love this guy.