How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[clyde21]

Is this a fact or opinion? Were they really the top offense in the league after that point?

Fact. Even better than the Warriors and Rockets.

Not knocking him, this is just a general question.

Why are is MPG so low? Does he have stamina issues? Bad coaching? etc. ?

Well, he's averaging almost 30mpg as a 21 year old in his second season, and in the beginning of the year he was sharing time in the front court with Yusuf Nurkic. I don't think it's an indication on his stamina or anything.

[JB2]

Best passing center I've ever seen.

Can shoot 3's.

Great in the high post.

Pushes the ball the up the court.

Rebounds. '

Conclusion: He's pretty damn good.

[Statlanta]

Watch on YouTube

That spin move at 1:03 is beautiful. Very High IQ player.

I haven't seen a big with creativity like that since Minnesota Love

[Chi]

Everyone, thanks for making my point: he's NOT a top 5 player right now. Or top 10.

Top 10 is reserved for guys who are ALREADY there. With no asterisks, no special instructions of how to view them

So, again, calm down. Quite a few of you said he's ALREADY that good. He's not.

Dont call me when you're in my town, call me when you're on my BLOCK

You know that he averaged 17 - 10 - 5 in 28 minutes last season. Per 36 he is projected 21.6 - 12.7 - 6.3. He had a 26 PER. So he is projected as a top 3 offensive big in the league right now. Can he sustain this number? Judging by the end of last season... yeah, absolutely. He was dominating on 30 minutes a night.

Great! Wonderful. Thats...thats really great He's still not better than AD, Towns, or Cousins as far as bigs. They put up ACTUAL 25 and 12 with blocks and/or assists, not no per36, and its an afterthought. Because they are ALREADY. STARS. There's no 'omg look at those numbers!' reaction. There's no 'oh no no no you gotta loOk at the analyticS...and the last 20 games....and if he had a SF'

And he's obviously not better than Bron, Durant, Curry, Kwahi, Harden, Russ, or Giannis.

So that places him outside the top 10. Which is just the point im making. He and his nuthuggers need to 'stay in their lane' He's a very exciting player for sure but keep it at that. Because when you start comparing him to guys who are ALREADY elite, its a whole different ballgame and he comes up short.

He's already better than Cousins...

[12footrim]

No way Jokic is better than Towns.

My opinion of the Towns vs Jokic debate...

I always thought Towns was clearly better, but I can see how Jokic is killing him on actual individual impact of winning games at the moment.

With that said Jokic is clearly better "Right Now". But in the future I still expect Towns to become better if not way better than Jokic.

The reason is I expect towns to be a dominant 2 way player. There's no reason for him not to become a great or elite defender in this league. Jokic doesn't have that type of potential.

For that reason I think Towns will be the better of the 2, but at the moment Jokic's impact on a team winning far outweighs Towns until he starts playing D.

Player Eff Rating
26.4 Jokic #8 in the NBA
26.0 KAT #10 in the NBA

Real Plus Minus
6.30 Jokic #6 in the NBA
2.13 KAT #51 in the NBA

Defensive RPM
2.49 Jokic #34 in the NBA
-1.41 KAT #383 in the NBA

Jokic simply makes his team much better on offense and defense and has just as big an individual impact on the game, more in fact even giving up a month where Malone screwed with him out of position and wouldn't give him the keys.

[THE J0KER]

In April, right after the end of the regular season, I made research about EFF Efficiency Index (based on official nba.com EFF formula) for all NBA sophomores in past 20 seasons. Here are TOP20 best results, look how high are ranked Nikola Jokic 2016-17 sophomores season (KAT even higher), and don't forget that his numbers since the middle of December are even better.



For those who are interested to see full TOP200 sophomores list (+TOP200 EFF for rookies) in past 20 seasons here is the link:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=344&t=1551268

[Bologna Smasher]

My favorite player in the league right now. The Nuggets have a bright future with him, Murray, Millsap, Hernangomez and Lydon (if he shows anything). Slowly getting used to being a Nuggets fan.

[Prez]

Jokic numbers that are fun:

Spoiler:

Jokic’s stats as a starter (51 games):
19/11/6 on 65% TS in 29.7 mpg…..(23/13/7 per 36)

Overall impact for the season:
- #6 in overall RPM, +6.73
- #8 in overall RAPM, +4.53
- Net on/off: +11.9 points per 100 poss
- Denver 8-14 in games Jokic didn’t start (30 win pace), 29-22 in games Jokic started (47 win pace)

Denver’s offense before/after Jokic was locked in as the full-time starter...
- Before: 102.7 ORTG, #18 in the league (25 games)
- After: 113.3 ORTG, #1 in the league (57 games)

List of centers (at any age) with 25+ PER, 8+ BPM, .200+ WS/48:
- Shaq
- Kareem
- Hakeem
- D-Rob
- Jokic

And Jokic was 21 this past year.

[Chi]

I hope he has a strong work ethic and really takes pride in basketball.

I don't want to see him become the next could've been great story, that stats suggested he'd be this great but then never really panned out.

I want to see him become what he's capable of. - That goes for all the other up and coming stars in this league too.

Giannis, Embiid, Towns, AD, Jokic, Fultz, Simmons, Ball, Thon, DSJ etc. - You guys are the future!

[Dirk]

So that places him outside the top 10. Which is just the point im making. He and his nuthuggers need to 'stay in their lane' He's a very exciting player for sure but keep it at that. Because when you start comparing him to guys who are ALREADY elite, its a whole different ballgame and he comes up short.

"Nuthuggers" is not acceptable.

You should consider changing your posting pattern of baiting and disrespect for other users.

[RTG HD]

Jokic the GOAT! Denver over Golden State in 3!

[NuggetsWY]

Something aint adding up...

If hes THIS good then people would be making more noise for a Kyrie trade. Stars need stars. StaRs crave stars. Ask Towns, ask AD.

Kyrie + Milsap (not a star but solid) + depth + "about to be top 5 player" would be a title contender.

If you give Milsap + Kyrie + depth to Lebron, Kwahi, Harden, Curry, Durant, etc it = contender, so why not Jokic?

Answer: Because he's not on that level. Slow down.

Or he's not an egomaniac

[NuggetsWY]

He's insanely good. Hes just a big white european that isn't super athletic so it's going to take some people forever to realize it. It's also going to give him the stereotype that hes a poor defender. Dunno why people are more worried about him defensively than they are about KAT. I mean either way they're all young prospects and very few young prospects are good defenders off the bat. Jokic definitely needs to work on his PnR defense (portland tore him apart with the pnr, some other big men have aso given him trouble) and defense in general but hes not putrid or anything. Offensively he is looking like he has ATG potential. His offensive game is out of this world and you could make an argument that hes the most talented passer in the NBA.

Definitely looking forward to watching him this year. Hes one of the most exciting players in the NBA and hopefully hes getting in better shape this summer.

You hit that right on the PnR defense but it wasn't on Jokic - it was the team's scheme with guards trailing over the top of the picks, leaving their man with the ball plus Jokic's man in a two-on-one - stupid scheme, doomed to fail especially because coach Malone preaches "stay at home on the 3 pt shooters" so there was no help defense. Result? 29th defense in the league.

[NuggetsWY]

Everyone, thanks for making my point: he's NOT a top 5 player right now. Or top 10.

Top 10 is reserved for guys who are ALREADY there. With no asterisks, no special instructions of how to view them

So, again, calm down. Quite a few of you said he's ALREADY that good. He's not.

Dont call me when you're in my town, call me when you're on my BLOCK

My daddy said that if one person calls you out, you can ignore them.
If two people call you out, you should maybe think about it.
When ten people call you out, you need to shut down.

[NuggetsWY]

Fact. Even better than the Warriors and Rockets.

Not knocking him, this is just a general question.

Why are is MPG so low? Does he have stamina issues? Bad coaching? etc. ?

Well, he's averaging almost 30mpg as a 21 year old in his second season, and in the beginning of the year he was sharing time in the front court with Yusuf Nurkic. I don't think it's an indication on his stamina or anything.

Legit question on why his minutes were so low. Especially early in the season, but sometimes later, if he picked up two fouls in the first quarter, coach would leave him on the bench until deep into the second quarter. If he picked up a 4th foul in the 3rd quarter, he might never get off the bench again. Coach had some legit concerns there because Jokic would make those Euro-fouls to stop a fast break, even if it wasn't a clear break. He can do that in Euro-ball but his fouls are too valuable in the more physical NBA. But IMO Malone left him on the bench too long just to teach him a lesson. The guy's smart. Malone could have taught him in a different manner IMO.

[NuggetsWY]

I just read through every post in this thread and one person mentioned "when he is old and can't play because of knees" or something like that. It's an interesting thought and knee injuries happen to everyone, but let's not forget, Jokic doesn't block shots by leaping. He slips a hand behind the guy and catches the ball at shoulder height or so. He doesn't get rebounds by leaping, he gets them by positioning and he's pretty good at it.

Millsap might be the perfect mentor for Jokic because Millsap plays great defense and rebounds and scores - all without being a great leaper. What does all this mean? Jokic's got a good likely-hood of a long career - baring the freak injury that can happen to any player at any time.

[Bobalob]

Everyone, thanks for making my point: he's NOT a top 5 player right now. Or top 10.

Top 10 is reserved for guys who are ALREADY there. With no asterisks, no special instructions of how to view them

So, again, calm down. Quite a few of you said he's ALREADY that good. He's not.

Dont call me when you're in my town, call me when you're on my BLOCK

My daddy said that if one person calls you out, you can ignore them.
If two people call you out, you should maybe think about it.
When ten people call you out, you need to shut down.

*Yawn* Couldn't care less. Dont worry i'll bump this thread when the Nuggets are fighting for a 7 seed and the media turns heel on him and starts pointing out his warts, and questions why all his "stats" arent translation to wins. He nor the Nuggets had any expectations before. They added Milsap. They do now. Watch what happens

[Pass_the_rock]

Jokic numbers that are fun:

Spoiler:

Jokic’s stats as a starter (51 games):
19/11/6 on 65% TS in 29.7 mpg…..(23/13/7 per 36)

Overall impact for the season:
- #6 in overall RPM, +6.73
- #8 in overall RAPM, +4.53
- Net on/off: +11.9 points per 100 poss
- Denver 8-14 in games Jokic didn’t start (30 win pace), 29-22 in games Jokic started (47 win pace)

Denver’s offense before/after Jokic was locked in as the full-time starter...
- Before: 102.7 ORTG, #18 in the league (25 games)
- After: 113.3 ORTG, #1 in the league (57 games)

List of centers (at any age) with 25+ PER, 8+ BPM, .200+ WS/48:
- Shaq
- Kareem
- Hakeem
- D-Rob
- Jokic

And Jokic was 21 this past year.

Do you have a link for RAPM rankings?

[RTG HD]

Everyone, thanks for making my point: he's NOT a top 5 player right now. Or top 10.

Top 10 is reserved for guys who are ALREADY there. With no asterisks, no special instructions of how to view them

So, again, calm down. Quite a few of you said he's ALREADY that good. He's not.

Dont call me when you're in my town, call me when you're on my BLOCK

My daddy said that if one person calls you out, you can ignore them.
If two people call you out, you should maybe think about it.
When ten people call you out, you need to shut down.

Ok, if you think Jokic is a top 10 player I'm calling you out. Are you really going to think about it?

[The Rebel]

Everyone, thanks for making my point: he's NOT a top 5 player right now. Or top 10.

Top 10 is reserved for guys who are ALREADY there. With no asterisks, no special instructions of how to view them

So, again, calm down. Quite a few of you said he's ALREADY that good. He's not.

Dont call me when you're in my town, call me when you're on my BLOCK

My daddy said that if one person calls you out, you can ignore them.
If two people call you out, you should maybe think about it.
When ten people call you out, you need to shut down.

Ok, if you think Jokic is a top 10 player I'm calling you out. Are you really going to think about it?

There is an argument that he is a top 10 player and was clearly the best young big in the league last year, do you have something saying he wasn't?