OFFICIAL: Welcome BACK to New York THJr (4/71m)

[GEOLINK]

Glad to see THJ training like a beast and working hard on his game.

[BKlutch]

In this dynasty league, where salaries matter and really considering picking up Hardaway at his 16.5 mill dollar price tag. When you look at all the SGs in the league and the money they make, it's not bad. Just gotta see how he does with rebs and ass

If he plays up to the best he played last year, or even better, we won't regret that money. If he regresses this year, well, Knicks fans are used to sliding back into that valley of disappointment.

We don't need to wind enough to compete this year. We need to play hard enough and smart enough that the fans can share the excitement of a team on the rise.

[GEOLINK]

I really starting to like the potential THJ/KP pairing has.

These two are working harder than I ever seen Melo in an off-season. Including the one where he got skinny like LeBron.

[K_ick_God]

Well here goes the jinx. But I have had a growing good feeling about this signing since it happened. Not sure why even.

Everybody knows I'm an optimist but it's not across the board on these instinctive things. I don't have a great feeling about KP to be honest, and by contrast.

But I keep coming back to a sense that THJ is going to click as a Knick this time. He's ready for takeoff, is my gut.

[Icandoallthings]

Well here goes the jinx. But I have had a growing good feeling about this signing since it happened. Not sure why even.

Everybody knows I'm an optimist but it's not across the board on these instinctive things. I don't have a great feeling about KP to be honest, and by contrast.

But I keep coming back to a sense that THJ is going to click as a Knick this time. He's ready for takeoff, is my gut.

That is cool and I am more cynical when it comes to the Knicks. THJ will have the ball often. He will have to resist the temptation to go shot for shot with Melo or put up a bunch of empty numbers like Rose. I just want to see if he can be a team first leader.

[BKlutch]

Well here goes the jinx. But I have had a growing good feeling about this signing since it happened. Not sure why even.

Everybody knows I'm an optimist but it's not across the board on these instinctive things. I don't have a great feeling about KP to be honest, and by contrast.

But I keep coming back to a sense that THJ is going to click as a Knick this time. He's ready for takeoff, is my gut.

That is cool and I am more cynical when it comes to the Knicks. THJ will have the ball often. He will have to resist the temptation to go shot for shot with Melo or put up a bunch of empty numbers like Rose. I just want to see if he can be a team first leader.

The people who traded for him thought he would be just what you want him to be. So at the very least, they were looking for the right kind of guy. Previously, they looked for guys who we had to trade away our future for.

[Icandoallthings]

Well here goes the jinx. But I have had a growing good feeling about this signing since it happened. Not sure why even.

Everybody knows I'm an optimist but it's not across the board on these instinctive things. I don't have a great feeling about KP to be honest, and by contrast.

But I keep coming back to a sense that THJ is going to click as a Knick this time. He's ready for takeoff, is my gut.

That is cool and I am more cynical when it comes to the Knicks. THJ will have the ball often. He will have to resist the temptation to go shot for shot with Melo or put up a bunch of empty numbers like Rose. I just want to see if he can be a team first leader.

The people who traded for him thought he would be just what you want him to be. So at the very least, they were looking for the right kind of guy. Previously, they looked for guys who we had to trade away our future for.

Its funny we root for the same exact teams and you seem to me to be a sports optimist. I like that we can watch the same exact thing and have opposite POV and be civil about it. Just like with Melo my issues with THJ have little to do with the person and everything to do with the situation ie coaching staff, roster construction, front office, salary cap blah blah its hard for me to buy in when the organization seems to be switching goals every year. But I am shamelessly wrong all the time so I hope the young guys find something TOGETHER.

[KnicksGadfly]

I really starting to like the potential THJ/KP pairing has.

These two are working harder than I ever seen Melo in an off-season. Including the one where he got skinny like LeBron.

damn, it's kind of hard to tell, though. it's all marketing.

[Basketball1981]

It's interesting how differently we view Hardaway. He showed some solid improvement last year, but I still wouldn't have even wanted him at 4years/50mill, let alone 4 years and 71mill. I didn't see the point in that signing. I was hoping for a fullout tank effort---be as worse as possible (not the half assed tank jobs where we end up drafting at 7, 8 or 9---while keeping as much cap flexibility as possible. Get a top 3 pick, draft a superstar potential type of guy like Porter. Then make the playoffs with Porzingis, Ntilikina and maybe Porter and sell a potential star free agent in 2019 or 2020 on the Knicks. Maybe even someone like Irving. I would hate to have someone like Irving available in two years and willing to sign, only to find out that we have tied so much money to a mediocre player.

I must admit I didn't watch the Hawks much last season. What is Hardaway's defense like nowadays? I do remember it being non-existant the first time around here.

[Basketball1981]

I have a great feeling with Ntilikina. I really like that pick a lot. He is said to have a good feel for the game, good defender good shooter, great work ethic and a great head on his shoulders. I am rooting hard for that kid. What he did with fyling over to New York for the draft, fyling back to play that finals game and being back a couple days later for the summer leage was just insane. I respect him for that alone already. It is almost unthinkable that a guy with that type of attitude and tools is not going to have success in this league. He may be our favorite knick before the season is over. I really hope so at least.

[Wolfgang630]

Well here goes the jinx. But I have had a growing good feeling about this signing since it happened. Not sure why even.

Everybody knows I'm an optimist but it's not across the board on these instinctive things. I don't have a great feeling about KP to be honest, and by contrast.

But I keep coming back to a sense that THJ is going to click as a Knick this time. He's ready for takeoff, is my gut.

You don't have a great feeling about KP? The greatest draft pick the Knicks have had in decades? The dude who's putting in work to get better?

[Wolfgang630]

Read on Twitter

I'm estatic to see KP and Hardaway as our 1 and 2 options this year, to see how much they have truly grown. Really hope Melo is moved

Yeah. I don't want Melo as a first, second, third, fourth or any option. He's the past era. This is the new Knicks era.

[BKlutch]

That is cool and I am more cynical when it comes to the Knicks. THJ will have the ball often. He will have to resist the temptation to go shot for shot with Melo or put up a bunch of empty numbers like Rose. I just want to see if he can be a team first leader.

The people who traded for him thought he would be just what you want him to be. So at the very least, they were looking for the right kind of guy. Previously, they looked for guys who we had to trade away our future for.

Its funny we root for the same exact teams and you seem to me to be a sports optimist. I like that we can watch the same exact thing and have opposite POV and be civil about it. Just like with Melo my issues with THJ have little to do with the person and everything to do with the situation ie coaching staff, roster construction, front office, salary cap blah blah its hard for me to buy in when the organization seems to be switching goals every year. But I am shamelessly wrong all the time so I hope the young guys find something TOGETHER.

Disagreeing with others' points of view is a right here on RealGM and it's what makes for interesting discussion. Disagreeing by talking about the actual issues and not denigrating your fellow members is a talent seen in the best posts here.

In sports, there cannot be a prediction model that will definitely show how any move will affect the game. Sometimes, we're right - adding KD to GS was seen as a great thing (for them!) and it was. Other times, things don't work or they completely backfire.

I'm not an optimist that things we've done will work out, but I do feel that we've made moves for over a year that will put us in position for a reasonably talented GM (hopefully, that's Scott) to continue to improve the team.

I see us as being in a 2-3 period where we can't really contend, but where we can develop the young core and get ourselves in position to add a highly talented FA or two to put us there (in 2 -3 years). By that time, we won't have Noah on the books and Melo will be gone, one way or the other. I'm not troubled by our limited cap space now - if we acquire a "good but not great" FA during this time, we will worse our draft picks, and we won't have the cap room to add a real start in the future. So I don't see Timmy's salary as being a handicap. The one thing that troubles me most about his contract is that he has a player option. If he does better than what we expect, we could wind up losing him in free agency.

[Basketball1981]

The people who traded for him thought he would be just what you want him to be. So at the very least, they were looking for the right kind of guy. Previously, they looked for guys who we had to trade away our future for.

Its funny we root for the same exact teams and you seem to me to be a sports optimist. I like that we can watch the same exact thing and have opposite POV and be civil about it. Just like with Melo my issues with THJ have little to do with the person and everything to do with the situation ie coaching staff, roster construction, front office, salary cap blah blah its hard for me to buy in when the organization seems to be switching goals every year. But I am shamelessly wrong all the time so I hope the young guys find something TOGETHER.

Disagreeing with others' points of view is a right here on RealGM and it's what makes for interesting discussion. Disagreeing by talking about the actual issues and not denigrating your fellow members is a talent seen in the best posts here.

In sports, there cannot be a prediction model that will definitely show how any move will affect the game. Sometimes, we're right - adding KD to GS was seen as a great thing (for them!) and it was. Other times, things don't work or they completely backfire.

I'm not an optimist that things we've done will work out, but I do feel that we've made moves for over a year that will put us in position for a reasonably talented GM (hopefully, that's Scott) to continue to improve the team.

I see us as being in a 2-3 period where we can't really contend, but where we can develop the young core and get ourselves in position to add a highly talented FA or two to put us there (in 2 -3 years). By that time, we won't have Noah on the books and Melo will be gone, one way or the other. I'm not troubled by our limited cap space now - if we acquire a "good but not great" FA during this time, we will worse our draft picks, and we won't have the cap room to add a real start in the future. So I don't see Timmy's salary as being a handicap. The one thing that troubles me most about his contract is that he has a player option. If he does better than what we expect, we could wind up losing him in free agency.

In two year we still have Noah and Hardaway on the books. That is close to 40mill. in commited salary to two mediocre players. Porzingis will sign a max salary extension in two years, starting at about 20mill. That pushes the number in committed salary to about 60mill. for Hardaway,Noah and Porzingis. Then we have cap hold etc. on other players. I'm not an expert on the cap, but to me it seems as if it is close to impossible to sign a superstar with Noah and Hardaway on the books. I think the earliest we can realistically sign a superstar FA is 3 years from now. That 2019 free agent class including Irving is more of a pipe dream after the Hardaway signing. However, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Basketball1981]

there are going to be a number of disappointed realgmers this year. it's fine to be optimistic, but so many of you are just drinking the cool aid. gtfo if Timmy will when come close to Beal.

Either one can look at Timmy as an overpaid unproven or fron the perspective that he's getting ready to have a breakout season.

You look at it one way and some of us see it differently, millions of ways one can view it.

At the end of the day THJ is a good gamble and I like the odds based on his personal achiements toward the end of last year. Tim Hardaway Jr. got a taste of being unstoppable at times last year and against formidable defensive players.

That's all I'm saying.

I agree you can look at this signing multiple ways..

Bottom line is it isn't that crazy to think if our team loses 40 points a game by not signing Rose and trading Melo that THJ isnt picking up 4-6 more points a game if his rebounds and assist stay the same he would be putting up H20 numbers

First off, if his rebounds and assists stay the same that would be pretty lame as that would indicate that he does not rebound or pass the ball at all. Second the comparison to Houston is off IMHO. Houston played during a time where games would often finish in the 70s or 80s or 90s. Being a 20point scorer back then was much more valuable then it is today. If you look at the stats you'll see that the number of 20+ point scorers has doubled in the league in comparison to 20 years ago.
Even if Hardaway scores 18 points a game he would be nowhere near worth what we paid him. In order to earn his contract he should be a strong defender next to putting up 18-20 points. Not average , but strong. I'm not gonna mention his rebounding and assists because I don't see the slightest chance in that improving. If this was only about getting a guy that can put up 18points and do nothing else, then we overspend by at least 4mill. a year.

[shtolky]

Its funny we root for the same exact teams and you seem to me to be a sports optimist. I like that we can watch the same exact thing and have opposite POV and be civil about it. Just like with Melo my issues with THJ have little to do with the person and everything to do with the situation ie coaching staff, roster construction, front office, salary cap blah blah its hard for me to buy in when the organization seems to be switching goals every year. But I am shamelessly wrong all the time so I hope the young guys find something TOGETHER.

Disagreeing with others' points of view is a right here on RealGM and it's what makes for interesting discussion. Disagreeing by talking about the actual issues and not denigrating your fellow members is a talent seen in the best posts here.

In sports, there cannot be a prediction model that will definitely show how any move will affect the game. Sometimes, we're right - adding KD to GS was seen as a great thing (for them!) and it was. Other times, things don't work or they completely backfire.

I'm not an optimist that things we've done will work out, but I do feel that we've made moves for over a year that will put us in position for a reasonably talented GM (hopefully, that's Scott) to continue to improve the team.

I see us as being in a 2-3 period where we can't really contend, but where we can develop the young core and get ourselves in position to add a highly talented FA or two to put us there (in 2 -3 years). By that time, we won't have Noah on the books and Melo will be gone, one way or the other. I'm not troubled by our limited cap space now - if we acquire a "good but not great" FA during this time, we will worse our draft picks, and we won't have the cap room to add a real start in the future. So I don't see Timmy's salary as being a handicap. The one thing that troubles me most about his contract is that he has a player option. If he does better than what we expect, we could wind up losing him in free agency.

In two year we still have Noah and Hardaway on the books. That is close to 40mill. in commited salary to two mediocre players. Porzingis will sign a max salary extension in two years, starting at about 20mill. That pushes the number in committed salary to about 60mill. for Hardaway,Noah and Porzingis. Then we have cap hold etc. on other players. I'm not an expert on the cap, but to me it seems as if it is close to impossible to sign a superstar with Noah and Hardaway on the books. I think the earliest we can realistically sign a superstar FA is 3 years from now. That 2019 free agent class including Irving is more of a pipe dream after the Hardaway signing. However, correct me if I'm wrong.

Going into that summer's FA, we will have around 90m in salary if KP signs a max extension (that includes cap holds and Frank's team option. Not enough for a max. However, that assumes Lee, Lance, and Noah are still on the team. That summer, all three guys are expiring contracts. Now that the cap has leveled off and teams have spent like crazy, expiring deals become valuable again. Most teams don't have cap space as they have had recently. That's almost 40m in salary that is potentially movable. Yes, even Noah's albatross contract finally becomes an asset (who would have thunk it). Also, we could stretch Noah, which I believe would shave off like 13m from our cap. That's 77m committed, getting us close to that max number. I am sure we could probably package Lee and Lance to a playoff team. Not out of the realm of possibility at all, if we are smart over the next two years, to have max space for 2019.

[dakomish23]

So long as we trade Melo, even if we keep Melo actually i expect Timmy to get close to Allen Houston numbers..

there are going to be a number of disappointed realgmers this year. it's fine to be optimistic, but so many of you are just drinking the cool aid. gtfo if Timmy will when come close to Beal.

I remember there was a thread after we acquired DRose "would you still sign Westbrook if DRose bounces back?" Or something like that

The Kool-Aid has been flowing for a long time.

Being a Knicks fan nowadays means talking yourself into the acquisitions. How often do you say off the bat "that's a home run"?

[Jesus Juice]

Either one can look at Timmy as an overpaid unproven or fron the perspective that he's getting ready to have a breakout season.

You look at it one way and some of us see it differently, millions of ways one can view it.

At the end of the day THJ is a good gamble and I like the odds based on his personal achiements toward the end of last year. Tim Hardaway Jr. got a taste of being unstoppable at times last year and against formidable defensive players.

That's all I'm saying.

I agree you can look at this signing multiple ways..

Bottom line is it isn't that crazy to think if our team loses 40 points a game by not signing Rose and trading Melo that THJ isnt picking up 4-6 more points a game if his rebounds and assist stay the same he would be putting up H20 numbers

First off, if his rebounds and assists stay the same that would be pretty lame as that would indicate that he does not rebound or pass the ball at all. Second the comparison to Houston is off IMHO. Houston played during a time where games would often finish in the 70s or 80s or 90s. Being a 20point scorer back then was much more valuable then it is today. If you look at the stats you'll see that the number of 20+ point scorers has doubled in the league in comparison to 20 years ago.
Even if Hardaway scores 18 points a game he would be nowhere near worth what we paid him. In order to earn his contract he should be a strong defender next to putting up 18-20 points. Not average , but strong. I'm not gonna mention his rebounding and assists because I don't see the slightest chance in that improving. If this was only about getting a guy that can put up 18points and do nothing else, then we overspend by at least 4mill. a year.

The point was if he were to get to 20 points a game and his rebounding and assist stats stayed the same he would be putting up H20 numbers which wouldn't be farfetched notion.. in Houston's 2002 season 21 people averaged 20 points plus a game I would agree with you that more players can put up 20 plus but in the 2014-2015 season only 15 people in the league averaged more than 20 points a game.. I know you would like to down play the number but outside of this past year when 31 players averaged 20 plus the number hasn't really been that much different from 20 years ago between 20-25 players THJ just held 18 ppg average over 30 games with a playoff team.. I like his chances to get there, especially if Melo is traded. Evan Fournier, Allen Crabbe, Evan Turner, Kent Bazemore, all getting the same type of money and I am almost positive we will get more out of THJ, at least Fournier production.. and all the guys that you can point to that are significantly better than THJ getting the same amount of money are about to cash out.. Dudes like PG, Klay, Green, Leonard, Butler.. Do I still think we over paid yeah.. but I think we picked a guy with talent enough to grow into his check..

[BKlutch]

Disagreeing with others' points of view is a right here on RealGM and it's what makes for interesting discussion. Disagreeing by talking about the actual issues and not denigrating your fellow members is a talent seen in the best posts here.

In sports, there cannot be a prediction model that will definitely show how any move will affect the game. Sometimes, we're right - adding KD to GS was seen as a great thing (for them!) and it was. Other times, things don't work or they completely backfire.

I'm not an optimist that things we've done will work out, but I do feel that we've made moves for over a year that will put us in position for a reasonably talented GM (hopefully, that's Scott) to continue to improve the team.

I see us as being in a 2-3 period where we can't really contend, but where we can develop the young core and get ourselves in position to add a highly talented FA or two to put us there (in 2 -3 years). By that time, we won't have Noah on the books and Melo will be gone, one way or the other. I'm not troubled by our limited cap space now - if we acquire a "good but not great" FA during this time, we will worse our draft picks, and we won't have the cap room to add a real start in the future. So I don't see Timmy's salary as being a handicap. The one thing that troubles me most about his contract is that he has a player option. If he does better than what we expect, we could wind up losing him in free agency.

In two year we still have Noah and Hardaway on the books. That is close to 40mill. in commited salary to two mediocre players. Porzingis will sign a max salary extension in two years, starting at about 20mill. That pushes the number in committed salary to about 60mill. for Hardaway,Noah and Porzingis. Then we have cap hold etc. on other players. I'm not an expert on the cap, but to me it seems as if it is close to impossible to sign a superstar with Noah and Hardaway on the books. I think the earliest we can realistically sign a superstar FA is 3 years from now. That 2019 free agent class including Irving is more of a pipe dream after the Hardaway signing. However, correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you're essentially correct about the salary cap in the 3rd year. It also looks like the "rebuilding process" our Front Office wants is not "tanking." They didn't intend to try for the worst record. There was a good article in the Ringer yesterday about this. The league was upset with "The Process" in Philadelphia, so Hinkie is on the outs in the NBA. There's a lot to be said for not discouraging your younger rising stars and your fan base, but we a lot of us had dreams of drafting the next Jordan or James.... Oh well.

Going into that summer's FA, we will have around 90m in salary if KP signs a max extension (that includes cap holds and Frank's team option. Not enough for a max. However, that assumes Lee, Lance, and Noah are still on the team. That summer, all three guys are expiring contracts. Now that the cap has leveled off and teams have spent like crazy, expiring deals become valuable again. Most teams don't have cap space as they have had recently. That's almost 40m in salary that is potentially movable. Yes, even Noah's albatross contract finally becomes an asset (who would have thunk it). Also, we could stretch Noah, which I believe would shave off like 13m from our cap. That's 77m committed, getting us close to that max number. I am sure we could probably package Lee and Lance to a playoff team. Not out of the realm of possibility at all, if we are smart over the next two years, to have max space for 2019.

[dakomish23]

Its funny we root for the same exact teams and you seem to me to be a sports optimist. I like that we can watch the same exact thing and have opposite POV and be civil about it. Just like with Melo my issues with THJ have little to do with the person and everything to do with the situation ie coaching staff, roster construction, front office, salary cap blah blah its hard for me to buy in when the organization seems to be switching goals every year. But I am shamelessly wrong all the time so I hope the young guys find something TOGETHER.

Disagreeing with others' points of view is a right here on RealGM and it's what makes for interesting discussion. Disagreeing by talking about the actual issues and not denigrating your fellow members is a talent seen in the best posts here.

In sports, there cannot be a prediction model that will definitely show how any move will affect the game. Sometimes, we're right - adding KD to GS was seen as a great thing (for them!) and it was. Other times, things don't work or they completely backfire.

I'm not an optimist that things we've done will work out, but I do feel that we've made moves for over a year that will put us in position for a reasonably talented GM (hopefully, that's Scott) to continue to improve the team.

I see us as being in a 2-3 period where we can't really contend, but where we can develop the young core and get ourselves in position to add a highly talented FA or two to put us there (in 2 -3 years). By that time, we won't have Noah on the books and Melo will be gone, one way or the other. I'm not troubled by our limited cap space now - if we acquire a "good but not great" FA during this time, we will worse our draft picks, and we won't have the cap room to add a real start in the future. So I don't see Timmy's salary as being a handicap. The one thing that troubles me most about his contract is that he has a player option. If he does better than what we expect, we could wind up losing him in free agency.

In two year we still have Noah and Hardaway on the books. That is close to 40mill. in commited salary to two mediocre players. Porzingis will sign a max salary extension in two years, starting at about 20mill. That pushes the number in committed salary to about 60mill. for Hardaway,Noah and Porzingis. Then we have cap hold etc. on other players. I'm not an expert on the cap, but to me it seems as if it is close to impossible to sign a superstar with Noah and Hardaway on the books. I think the earliest we can realistically sign a superstar FA is 3 years from now. That 2019 free agent class including Irving is more of a pipe dream after the Hardaway signing. However, correct me if I'm wrong.

We wont have max salary space in 2019. 2020 we could be there. This is assuming we don't make any trades, Melo opts in, etc. Here's my back of the napkin math of our current situation:

2019 Estimated cap 108 mil

KP cap hold in 19-20 - approximately 22 mil (300%)

The cap is predicted to be 108 going into the 19-20 season

Here's our salaries

Noah
$19,295,000
Lee
$12,759,670
Frank
$4,855,800
WHG
1,577,250
--------------
38,487,720

Add in our 2018 pick (assume 8th) estimated 2nd year salary - 4,155,720
Add in our 2019 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3 .5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 5 = 4.9 mil
Add in the guaranteed salary to LFT - 1 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Roughly 74 mil, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

So roughly 34 mil in space.

Now subtract 18,150,000, the estimated salary for THJ in 19-20.

17 mil - not even enough to make a max RFA offer.

2020 estimated cap - 120 mil

KP starting salary at the 25% rate (barring being eligible for the new version of the DRose rule) will be about 27.5 mil.

Frank - 6,176,578
WHG cap hold - 2,335,875
2018 8th pick 3rd year salary 4,855,800
2019 8th pick 2nd year salary 4,155,720
-----------
45,023,973

Add in our 2020 pick hold (assume 8th) - 3.5 mil
Add in our roster charges for every spot under 13 - 815K (rookie minimum now) x 6 = 4.9 mil

Total it up and what do you got? Around 54 million, depending on the deals we gave through that year i.e. Baker and any other picks we made or undrafted guys & how much the rookie scale is raised (starting 18-19, they are going to adjust it the same % as the cap goes up).

That's 66 million in cap space.

Now subtract 18,975,000, THJ salary in 20-21, assuming he opts in. Why wouldn't he? He's being massively overpaid.

That's 47 mil in cap space.