melo thread 6 - Updt PG. 34 (Woj Tweets: NYK & HOU Reengage)!

[BKlutch]

I wonder if Melo would okay with Portland if Portland gives him an extension for an additional 3 years. Cleveland is not going to give him a fat extension and I doubt Morey will do the same. I'm sure he is looking for his next contract.

Ah - the old "If they don't love me, I'll make them love me for my money" trick. Great idea. It works for sugar daddies all the time.

I just don't know if they want him enough to extend him that long. But I'd love it if they tried!

[Basketball1981]

According to CARMELO, his 5 year projected average is $39.6m, so we paid nearly double for Tim Hardaway Jr.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/tim-hardaway-jr/

You mean the GM didn't consult with fivethityeight.com before doing the job he gets paid millions to do in real life? Fire him.

During the last 20 years only one GM has done his job somewhat (Walsh). The rest just sucked and should have been fired earlier than later. I personally have zero trust in Mills after the Hardaway signing. Some fans tend to act like the GMs and their staff know something we don't but this isn't the case. If I take all the blatant overpays in the last 20 year NBA wide , then I can say that may less than 10% tended to work out for the team. After a signing has been made and fans and media call that signing ridiculous, then 9 out of 10 times the signing is indeed ridiculous and never works out for the team. The poster was trying to make the point that we overpaid big time here, and we did.
Maybe Hardaway is worth more than 40mill. I don't know. But given what position we were in , it was just crazy to go to 71mill. What use is it to have a player on your team which the other 29teams view as grossly overpaid and wouldn't want to touch in trade talks?

[Basketball1981]

I would go as far as saying that if the Knicks Front office had to consult this message board before every move they made during the past 20 years and that posters had to form a consensus and do a poll before the move was made in reality, the Knicks would have been muuuuuuuuchhhhh better of then they are today.

[BKlutch]

I would go as far as saying that if the Knicks Front office had to consult this message board before every move they made during the past 20 years and that posters had to form a consensus and do a poll before the move was made in reality, the Knicks would have been muuuuuuuuchhhhh better of then they are today.

Ballboy, were you lurking here for 20 years spying on us and what we wrote?
Or were you another member in a previous incarnation?

[Basketball1981]

I wonder if Melo would okay with Portland if Portland gives him an extension for an additional 3 years. Cleveland is not going to give him a fat extension and I doubt Morey will do the same. I'm sure he is looking for his next contract.

Ah - the old "If they don't love me, I'll make them love me for my money" trick. Great idea. It works for sugar daddies all the time.

I just don't know if they want him enough to extend him that long. But I'd love it if they tried!

Portland would be crazy to do that. Melo will be almost 35 by the end of this contract. Extending a player that has struggled to ever be in top shape for 3 years and big bucks is a recipe for desaster over there. That team would not only struggle to win one game against the warriors, but they'd probably have trouble getting out of the first round. Let alone having a 37year old Melo on the books making somewhere around 20mill.

[BKlutch]

I wonder if Melo would okay with Portland if Portland gives him an extension for an additional 3 years. Cleveland is not going to give him a fat extension and I doubt Morey will do the same. I'm sure he is looking for his next contract.

Ah - the old "If they don't love me, I'll make them love me for my money" trick. Great idea. It works for sugar daddies all the time.

I just don't know if they want him enough to extend him that long. But I'd love it if they tried!

Portland would be crazy to do that. Melo will be almost 35 by the end of this contract. Extending a player that has struggled to ever be in top shape for 3 years and big bucks is a recipe for desaster over there. That team would not only struggle to win one game against the warriors, but they'd probably have trouble getting out of the first round. Let alone having a 37year old Melo on the books making somewhere around 20mill.

Who cares if they're crazy? That's Portland's problem, not ours.

The Yankees did it for years, and they sucked. Paid ARoid 25+ million /year when he couldn't even take the field.

We paid Amare to play on 1 knee.

So even though they're crazy, let's hope they decide to do it. (also, see my comment about sugar babies above. Ever seen what you have after 10 years of supporting a sugar baby? It's called shyt.)

[Basketball1981]

I would go as far as saying that if the Knicks Front office had to consult this message board before every move they made during the past 20 years and that posters had to form a consensus and do a poll before the move was made in reality, the Knicks would have been muuuuuuuuchhhhh better of then they are today.

Ballboy, were you lurking here for 20 years spying on us and what we wrote?
Or were you another member in a previous incarnation?

Statistics my friend. I say if you take 50 knick fans and let them have a debate over whether to sign this or that player then 9 out of 10 times they would come out with the right approach. You think there was the slightest chance 50 knick fans would have ok'd a 71mill. signing of Hardaway? Or a 100mill. signing of Allan Houston? I remember when the Houston signing was anounced....knick fans were completely baffled. I was posting on a small site back then and I remember the reaction. Literally 98% were saying that this move was beyond stupid. 2% tried to rationalize it. Well in the end it was one of the major first terrible moves that set in motion a series of terrible follow up moves.

[Basketball1981]

Ah - the old "If they don't love me, I'll make them love me for my money" trick. Great idea. It works for sugar daddies all the time.

I just don't know if they want him enough to extend him that long. But I'd love it if they tried!

Portland would be crazy to do that. Melo will be almost 35 by the end of this contract. Extending a player that has struggled to ever be in top shape for 3 years and big bucks is a recipe for desaster over there. That team would not only struggle to win one game against the warriors, but they'd probably have trouble getting out of the first round. Let alone having a 37year old Melo on the books making somewhere around 20mill.

Who cares if they're crazy? That's Portland's problem, not ours.

The Yankees did it for years, and they sucked. Paid ARoid 25+ million /year when he couldn't even take the field.

We paid Amare to play on 1 knee.

So even though they're crazy, let's hope they decide to do it. (also, see my comment about sugar babies above. Ever seen what you have after 10 years of supporting a sugar baby? It's called shyt.)

I never said I was against it. I would love Portland if they helped us out. However, I don't see it happening.

[BeagleBoss]

How dumb of D'Antoni to want a player who got him fired and doesn't fit in his system on his team again?

[BKlutch]

I would go as far as saying that if the Knicks Front office had to consult this message board before every move they made during the past 20 years and that posters had to form a consensus and do a poll before the move was made in reality, the Knicks would have been muuuuuuuuchhhhh better of then they are today.

Ballboy, were you lurking here for 20 years spying on us and what we wrote?
Or were you another member in a previous incarnation?

Statistics my friend. I say if you take 50 knick fans and let them have a debate over whether to sign this or that player then 9 out of 10 times they would come out with the right approach. You think there was the slightest chance 50 knick fans would have ok'd a 71mill. signing of Hardaway? Or a 100mill. signing of Allan Houston? I remember when the Houston signing was anounced....knick fans were completely baffled. I was posting on a small site back then and I remember the reaction. Literally 98% were saying that this move was beyond stupid. 2% tried to rationalize it. Well in the end it was one of the major first terrible moves that set in motion a series of terrible follow up moves.

With one possible exception. we've had horrible GM's for decades who made horrible moves. I can't imagine that any GM was motivated by his predecessor's mistakes to just make more mistakes. We've got to look for the common factor behind all this mess. Hmm... who could it have been that was here all this time? Oh, maybe the owner? Nah, couldn't have been that nice Jimmy fellow.

You are right that this board would never have approved any of the bad signings we had. In fact, we wouldn't have really approved anything with a strong majority, not even if we could have had prime MJ and prime Lebron in exchange for Chris Duhon. We're not known for all having the same opinions around here.

Well, it is about time you stopped spending time on that small site and came over here. What took you so long?

[BKlutch]

How dumb of D'Antoni to want a player who got him fired and doesn't fit in his system on his team again?

It would be just fine for me if D'Antoni is very dumb and can't win any more games with Melo and CP3 than he won last year. Wouldn't bother me one bit. That would be his problem, and not ours, for a change. And he'd probably lose his job there, too, if he screws up badly this year. Haha.

[NoLayupRule]

the problem is that the Hardaway signing was a classic new GM move

When Phil and Mills were together one of the biggest disagreements they had was over Hardaway. Mills loved him, Phil didn't. Phil traded him. End of story.

Apparently not.

Because the first thing Mills did when Phil was out and Griffin said no was to do whatever it took to get THjr back and prove to Dolan that he, Mills, was right about him

so we bid against ourselves in a grossly flawed example of misguided thinning.

Mills said that the average salary for starting SGs in the league is 18mil. Its not. Its 16mil. But fine.
So he gave Hardaway the average SG salary.

Problem is that Hardaway isn't an average SG yet
hes currently a 1 way player at best and you shouldn't pay those guys like we did


So Mills, behind the scenes, is making a gamble on Hardaway to prove to Dolan that he's always been right about players.

But in doing so Mills made the worst moves because we overbid and, worst of all, gave a player option.

so at the end of the day either THjr underperforms his contract or he matches or outperforms it and then takes the player option and forces us to resign him or leaves


its one thing, a bad thing, to gamble on a player like we did
its another all together to gamble but have an option for that player to leave if he does reach the level were paying him for

unreal Mills

I would have literally given 10 And1s for this post. When I first heard about the signing I thought my friend way punking me. I was thinking that "things are chaing around the Knicks and there is no way any sane GM would give 71mill. to Hardaway. When I saw that it is true I hoped against all odds that Atlanta would match the contract. When it sunk in that there is no way Atlanta matches it I was like
The only positive here in case Hardaway indeed does not perform up to task then that will throw an incredibly bad light on Mills. It will go down as a massive blunder, ESPECIALLY if two years from now players like Irving signal their interest to join our team but we are stuck with an underperforming Hardaway.

@Nolayuprule: Have you seen Hardaway's defense last year? I admit I haven't paid much attention to it. What is it like? Is it really much improved? If Hardaway isn't at least a solid defender then there is literally no realistic chance for him to perform up to that 71mill. IMO. Even if he averages 18points a game---if he plays bad defense he'd still be underperforming and no team would touch that contract.

i honestly haven't seen enough of him recently to know but his improvements on defense are coming from such a low standard that to even be average it would be a massive improvement.

I have low expectations for him

[BKlutch]

Portland would be crazy to do that. Melo will be almost 35 by the end of this contract. Extending a player that has struggled to ever be in top shape for 3 years and big bucks is a recipe for desaster over there. That team would not only struggle to win one game against the warriors, but they'd probably have trouble getting out of the first round. Let alone having a 37year old Melo on the books making somewhere around 20mill.

Who cares if they're crazy? That's Portland's problem, not ours.

The Yankees did it for years, and they sucked. Paid ARoid 25+ million /year when he couldn't even take the field.

We paid Amare to play on 1 knee.

So even though they're crazy, let's hope they decide to do it. (also, see my comment about sugar babies above. Ever seen what you have after 10 years of supporting a sugar baby? It's called shyt.)

I never said I was against it. I would love Portland if they helped us out. However, I don't see it happening.

Yeah, I also can't imagine us being lucky enough for them to be so stupid. We've been the only team to be that dumb for a long while.

[NoLayupRule]

the problem is that the Hardaway signing was a classic new GM move

When Phil and Mills were together one of the biggest disagreements they had was over Hardaway. Mills loved him, Phil didn't. Phil traded him. End of story.

Apparently not.

Because the first thing Mills did when Phil was out and Griffin said no was to do whatever it took to get THjr back and prove to Dolan that he, Mills, was right about him

so we bid against ourselves in a grossly flawed example of misguided thinning.

Mills said that the average salary for starting SGs in the league is 18mil. Its not. Its 16mil. But fine.
So he gave Hardaway the average SG salary.

Problem is that Hardaway isn't an average SG yet
hes currently a 1 way player at best and you shouldn't pay those guys like we did


So Mills, behind the scenes, is making a gamble on Hardaway to prove to Dolan that he's always been right about players.

But in doing so Mills made the worst moves because we overbid and, worst of all, gave a player option.

so at the end of the day either THjr underperforms his contract or he matches or outperforms it and then takes the player option and forces us to resign him or leaves


its one thing, a bad thing, to gamble on a player like we did
its another all together to gamble but have an option for that player to leave if he does reach the level were paying him for

unreal Mills

I would have literally given 10 And1s for this post. When I first heard about the signing I thought my friend way punking me. I was thinking that "things are chaing around the Knicks and there is no way any sane GM would give 71mill. to Hardaway. When I saw that it is true I hoped against all odds that Atlanta would match the contract. When it sunk in that there is no way Atlanta matches it I was like
The only positive here in case Hardaway indeed does not perform up to task then that will throw an incredibly bad light on Mills. It will go down as a massive blunder, ESPECIALLY if two years from now players like Irving signal their interest to join our team but we are stuck with an underperforming Hardaway.

@Nolayuprule: Have you seen Hardaway's defense last year? I admit I haven't paid much attention to it. What is it like? Is it really much improved? If Hardaway isn't at least a solid defender then there is literally no realistic chance for him to perform up to that 71mill. IMO. Even if he averages 18points a game---if he plays bad defense he'd still be underperforming and no team would touch that contract.

THJr's defense was better, but it still wasn't good. He can be hidden in a good team defensive scheme though.

well we sure dont have one of those

[magnumt]

I would have literally given 10 And1s for this post. When I first heard about the signing I thought my friend way punking me. I was thinking that "things are chaing around the Knicks and there is no way any sane GM would give 71mill. to Hardaway. When I saw that it is true I hoped against all odds that Atlanta would match the contract. When it sunk in that there is no way Atlanta matches it I was like
The only positive here in case Hardaway indeed does not perform up to task then that will throw an incredibly bad light on Mills. It will go down as a massive blunder, ESPECIALLY if two years from now players like Irving signal their interest to join our team but we are stuck with an underperforming Hardaway.

@Nolayuprule: Have you seen Hardaway's defense last year? I admit I haven't paid much attention to it. What is it like? Is it really much improved? If Hardaway isn't at least a solid defender then there is literally no realistic chance for him to perform up to that 71mill. IMO. Even if he averages 18points a game---if he plays bad defense he'd still be underperforming and no team would touch that contract.

THJr's defense was better, but it still wasn't good. He can be hidden in a good team defensive scheme though.

well we sure dont have one of those

We DO have a low post defender in Porzingis and a POTENTIAL wing defender in Ntilikina and a Vet wing defender in CLee (if we keep him).

It's not ideal 90's NLR Knicks, but it's a step in the right direction.

--Mags

[BKlutch]

THJr's defense was better, but it still wasn't good. He can be hidden in a good team defensive scheme though.

well we sure dont have one of those

We DO have a low post defender in Porzingis and a POTENTIAL wing defender in Ntilikina and a Vet wing defender in CLee (if we keep him).

It's not ideal 90's NLR Knicks, but it's a step in the right direction.

--Mags

When the Knicks added Earl Monroe to the back court, it was said he didn't play D, so he wouldn't fit in with the team. It was also said that he couldn't share the ball, so he and Frazier would never work well together in the back court. Wrong on both counts.

If we have good D from the other big, I'm fairly sure Timmy will buy into the team defensive plans, even if he's not the best defender man to man. So we could be fine, if the coach is able to do his part.

This is the kind of thing we'll have to see as the season develops - it's one of those things we can't know now just from statistics.

[magnumt]

well we sure dont have one of those

We DO have a low post defender in Porzingis and a POTENTIAL wing defender in Ntilikina and a Vet wing defender in CLee (if we keep him).

It's not ideal 90's NLR Knicks, but it's a step in the right direction.

--Mags

When the Knicks added Earl Monroe to the back court, it was said he didn't play D, so he wouldn't fit in with the team. It was also said that he couldn't share the ball, so he and Frazier would never work well together in the back court. Wrong on both counts.

If we have good D from the other big, I'm fairly sure Timmy will buy into the team defensive plans, even if he's not the best defender man to man. So we could be fine, if the coach is able to do his part.

This is the kind of thing we'll have to see as the season develops - it's one of those things we can't know now just from statistics.

From a SG standpoint, if he drops 17+ PPG on decent or better percentages, then at $16.5 Million / year, I'd consider it a HUGE win for Mills & Perry.

By comparison, Crabbe and Bazemore make $17 Million / year.

Harden and Wade are big competitors, and they said he looked good. So...

--Mags

[BKlutch]

We DO have a low post defender in Porzingis and a POTENTIAL wing defender in Ntilikina and a Vet wing defender in CLee (if we keep him).

It's not ideal 90's NLR Knicks, but it's a step in the right direction.

--Mags

When the Knicks added Earl Monroe to the back court, it was said he didn't play D, so he wouldn't fit in with the team. It was also said that he couldn't share the ball, so he and Frazier would never work well together in the back court. Wrong on both counts.

If we have good D from the other big, I'm fairly sure Timmy will buy into the team defensive plans, even if he's not the best defender man to man. So we could be fine, if the coach is able to do his part.

This is the kind of thing we'll have to see as the season develops - it's one of those things we can't know now just from statistics.

From a SG standpoint, if he drops 17+ PPG on decent or better percentages, then at $16.5 Million / year, I'd consider it a HUGE win for Mills & Perry.

By comparison, Crabbe and Bazemore make $17 Million / year.

Harden and Wade are big competitors, and they said he looked good. So...

--Mags

This board can argue for 10 years if Mills paid too much for THJ, or if he paid more than Perry would have... but why?

[shtolky]

the problem is that the Hardaway signing was a classic new GM move

When Phil and Mills were together one of the biggest disagreements they had was over Hardaway. Mills loved him, Phil didn't. Phil traded him. End of story.

Apparently not.

Because the first thing Mills did when Phil was out and Griffin said no was to do whatever it took to get THjr back and prove to Dolan that he, Mills, was right about him

so we bid against ourselves in a grossly flawed example of misguided thinning.

Mills said that the average salary for starting SGs in the league is 18mil. Its not. Its 16mil. But fine.
So he gave Hardaway the average SG salary.

Problem is that Hardaway isn't an average SG yet
hes currently a 1 way player at best and you shouldn't pay those guys like we did


So Mills, behind the scenes, is making a gamble on Hardaway to prove to Dolan that he's always been right about players.

But in doing so Mills made the worst moves because we overbid and, worst of all, gave a player option.

so at the end of the day either THjr underperforms his contract or he matches or outperforms it and then takes the player option and forces us to resign him or leaves


its one thing, a bad thing, to gamble on a player like we did
its another all together to gamble but have an option for that player to leave if he does reach the level were paying him for

unreal Mills

I would have literally given 10 And1s for this post. When I first heard about the signing I thought my friend way punking me. I was thinking that "things are chaing around the Knicks and there is no way any sane GM would give 71mill. to Hardaway. When I saw that it is true I hoped against all odds that Atlanta would match the contract. When it sunk in that there is no way Atlanta matches it I was like
The only positive here in case Hardaway indeed does not perform up to task then that will throw an incredibly bad light on Mills. It will go down as a massive blunder, ESPECIALLY if two years from now players like Irving signal their interest to join our team but we are stuck with an underperforming Hardaway.

@Nolayuprule: Have you seen Hardaway's defense last year? I admit I haven't paid much attention to it. What is it like? Is it really much improved? If Hardaway isn't at least a solid defender then there is literally no realistic chance for him to perform up to that 71mill. IMO. Even if he averages 18points a game---if he plays bad defense he'd still be underperforming and no team would touch that contract.

I am confused as to how you can be so against this signing as evidenced by your post and yet you literally don't know a thing about his defense. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. His defense was actually much better than most realize, and coach Bud even said it was his defense that got him on the court.

As for NoLayUpRule, how is THJ not an average NBA SG? How many SG's are there in the league? 60-70? I have no idea, I am assuming 2-3 per team. He is CLEARLY at least an average shooting guard. This season he will be the 14th highest paid SG. Oladipo and Wes Matthews make more, and THJ is arguably better than both (I can see people going up in arms about mentioning Oladipo, but he was not good enough for his contract number that starts this year). Evan Fournier makes more than THJ.

Also, your logic about Phil hating THJ and Mills loving him because Mills signed him once Phil left is ridiculous. The player Phil traded away in 2015 is not the same player we signed in 2017. We cares if we traded him away, what does that matter? Should OKC not go after Harden in the future because they once dealt him? I'm sure all Mills cares about is proving to Dolan that he was right about THJ...Dolan who would never fire Mills in 1,000,000 years, yet Mills is doing this to please Dolan. Why couldn't he have just signed a good young player to a contract that is being WILDLY exaggerated here as a huge overpay. If it was up to some of you, we would just never sign anyone because literally every contract signed is an overpay.

[newyorker4ever]

well we sure dont have one of those

We DO have a low post defender in Porzingis and a POTENTIAL wing defender in Ntilikina and a Vet wing defender in CLee (if we keep him).

It's not ideal 90's NLR Knicks, but it's a step in the right direction.

--Mags

When the Knicks added Earl Monroe to the back court, it was said he didn't play D, so he wouldn't fit in with the team. It was also said that he couldn't share the ball, so he and Frazier would never work well together in the back court. Wrong on both counts.

If we have good D from the other big, I'm fairly sure Timmy will buy into the team defensive plans, even if he's not the best defender man to man. So we could be fine, if the coach is able to do his part.

This is the kind of thing we'll have to see as the season develops - it's one of those things we can't know now just from statistics.

I always thought the "they don't fit with each other" talk was always ridiculous cause these guys are professional basketball players that have been playing basketball their whole lives so if they wanna make it work with the guys they're on the court with then they can by playing the way the coach wants them to play and playing smart basketball. People say some players can't change their games which is also ridiculous cause if they truly want to change their games then they can change their games. It comes down to the players not being selfish and playing the way they need to play to make it work with their teammates.