melo thread 6 - Updt PG. 34 (Woj Tweets: NYK & HOU Reengage)!

[newyorker4ever]

When the Knicks added Earl Monroe to the back court, it was said he didn't play D, so he wouldn't fit in with the team. It was also said that he couldn't share the ball, so he and Frazier would never work well together in the back court. Wrong on both counts.

If we have good D from the other big, I'm fairly sure Timmy will buy into the team defensive plans, even if he's not the best defender man to man. So we could be fine, if the coach is able to do his part.

This is the kind of thing we'll have to see as the season develops - it's one of those things we can't know now just from statistics.

From a SG standpoint, if he drops 17+ PPG on decent or better percentages, then at $16.5 Million / year, I'd consider it a HUGE win for Mills & Perry.

By comparison, Crabbe and Bazemore make $17 Million / year.

Harden and Wade are big competitors, and they said he looked good. So...

--Mags

This board can argue for 10 years if Mills paid too much for THJ, or if he paid more than Perry would have... but why?

I think i'm more upset with paying Ron Burgandy $4.5 mil per then i am about paying THJ his $16.5/$17 mil per. There's no doubt in my mind that we could of got Ron for around $2 mil per.

[BKlutch]

We DO have a low post defender in Porzingis and a POTENTIAL wing defender in Ntilikina and a Vet wing defender in CLee (if we keep him).

It's not ideal 90's NLR Knicks, but it's a step in the right direction.

--Mags

When the Knicks added Earl Monroe to the back court, it was said he didn't play D, so he wouldn't fit in with the team. It was also said that he couldn't share the ball, so he and Frazier would never work well together in the back court. Wrong on both counts.

If we have good D from the other big, I'm fairly sure Timmy will buy into the team defensive plans, even if he's not the best defender man to man. So we could be fine, if the coach is able to do his part.

This is the kind of thing we'll have to see as the season develops - it's one of those things we can't know now just from statistics.

I always thought the "they don't fit with each other" talk was always ridiculous cause these guys are professional basketball players that have been playing basketball their whole lives so if they wanna make it work with the guys they're on the court with then they can by playing the way the coach wants them to play and playing smart basketball. People say some players can't change their games which is also ridiculous cause if they truly want to change their games then they can change their games. It comes down to the players not being selfish and playing the way they need to play to make it work with their teammates.

This is right.

The best players will change their game to make the team win. The second tier of player always wants to show he's better than he is, so it's harder for him to change his game. A player who is too selfish to do this can never be great.

[BKlutch]

From a SG standpoint, if he drops 17+ PPG on decent or better percentages, then at $16.5 Million / year, I'd consider it a HUGE win for Mills & Perry.

By comparison, Crabbe and Bazemore make $17 Million / year.

Harden and Wade are big competitors, and they said he looked good. So...

--Mags

This board can argue for 10 years if Mills paid too much for THJ, or if he paid more than Perry would have... but why?

I think i'm more upset with paying Ron Burgandy $4.5 mil per then i am about paying THJ his $16.5/$17 mil per. There's no doubt in my mind that we could of got Ron for around $2 mil per.

Yes, probably true. And here's why: we could have gotten a GM before we signed THJ or Burgundy.

Who's fault was that, Mr. Mills?

[Jeffrey]

Ah - the old "If they don't love me, I'll make them love me for my money" trick. Great idea. It works for sugar daddies all the time.

I just don't know if they want him enough to extend him that long. But I'd love it if they tried!

Portland would be crazy to do that. Melo will be almost 35 by the end of this contract. Extending a player that has struggled to ever be in top shape for 3 years and big bucks is a recipe for desaster over there. That team would not only struggle to win one game against the warriors, but they'd probably have trouble getting out of the first round. Let alone having a 37year old Melo on the books making somewhere around 20mill.

Who cares if they're crazy? That's Portland's problem, not ours.

The Yankees did it for years, and they sucked. Paid ARoid 25+ million /year when he couldn't even take the field.

We paid Amare to play on 1 knee.

So even though they're crazy, let's hope they decide to do it. (also, see my comment about sugar babies above. Ever seen what you have after 10 years of supporting a sugar baby? It's called shyt.)

I think that is the only way to entice Melo to expand his list. For the team to give him an extension and Paul Allen is the man to do it.

[Basketball1981]

Ballboy, were you lurking here for 20 years spying on us and what we wrote?
Or were you another member in a previous incarnation?

Statistics my friend. I say if you take 50 knick fans and let them have a debate over whether to sign this or that player then 9 out of 10 times they would come out with the right approach. You think there was the slightest chance 50 knick fans would have ok'd a 71mill. signing of Hardaway? Or a 100mill. signing of Allan Houston? I remember when the Houston signing was anounced....knick fans were completely baffled. I was posting on a small site back then and I remember the reaction. Literally 98% were saying that this move was beyond stupid. 2% tried to rationalize it. Well in the end it was one of the major first terrible moves that set in motion a series of terrible follow up moves.

With one possible exception. we've had horrible GM's for decades who made horrible moves. I can't imagine that any GM was motivated by his predecessor's mistakes to just make more mistakes. We've got to look for the common factor behind all this mess. Hmm... who could it have been that was here all this time? Oh, maybe the owner? Nah, couldn't have been that nice Jimmy fellow.

You are right that this board would never have approved any of the bad signings we had. In fact, we wouldn't have really approved anything with a strong majority, not even if we could have had prime MJ and prime Lebron in exchange for Chris Duhon. We're not known for all having the same opinions around here.

Well, it is about time you stopped spending time on that small site and came over here. What took you so long?

It was a nice site really but at some point things fell apart. I'm also more of a reader than writer so it took me some time to get back into writing mode.

[Basketball1981]

the problem is that the Hardaway signing was a classic new GM move

When Phil and Mills were together one of the biggest disagreements they had was over Hardaway. Mills loved him, Phil didn't. Phil traded him. End of story.

Apparently not.

Because the first thing Mills did when Phil was out and Griffin said no was to do whatever it took to get THjr back and prove to Dolan that he, Mills, was right about him

so we bid against ourselves in a grossly flawed example of misguided thinning.

Mills said that the average salary for starting SGs in the league is 18mil. Its not. Its 16mil. But fine.
So he gave Hardaway the average SG salary.

Problem is that Hardaway isn't an average SG yet
hes currently a 1 way player at best and you shouldn't pay those guys like we did


So Mills, behind the scenes, is making a gamble on Hardaway to prove to Dolan that he's always been right about players.

But in doing so Mills made the worst moves because we overbid and, worst of all, gave a player option.

so at the end of the day either THjr underperforms his contract or he matches or outperforms it and then takes the player option and forces us to resign him or leaves


its one thing, a bad thing, to gamble on a player like we did
its another all together to gamble but have an option for that player to leave if he does reach the level were paying him for

unreal Mills

I would have literally given 10 And1s for this post. When I first heard about the signing I thought my friend way punking me. I was thinking that "things are chaing around the Knicks and there is no way any sane GM would give 71mill. to Hardaway. When I saw that it is true I hoped against all odds that Atlanta would match the contract. When it sunk in that there is no way Atlanta matches it I was like
The only positive here in case Hardaway indeed does not perform up to task then that will throw an incredibly bad light on Mills. It will go down as a massive blunder, ESPECIALLY if two years from now players like Irving signal their interest to join our team but we are stuck with an underperforming Hardaway.

@Nolayuprule: Have you seen Hardaway's defense last year? I admit I haven't paid much attention to it. What is it like? Is it really much improved? If Hardaway isn't at least a solid defender then there is literally no realistic chance for him to perform up to that 71mill. IMO. Even if he averages 18points a game---if he plays bad defense he'd still be underperforming and no team would touch that contract.

I am confused as to how you can be so against this signing as evidenced by your post and yet you literally don't know a thing about his defense. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. His defense was actually much better than most realize, and coach Bud even said it was his defense that got him on the court.

As for NoLayUpRule, how is THJ not an average NBA SG? How many SG's are there in the league? 60-70? I have no idea, I am assuming 2-3 per team. He is CLEARLY at least an average shooting guard. This season he will be the 14th highest paid SG. Oladipo and Wes Matthews make more, and THJ is arguably better than both (I can see people going up in arms about mentioning Oladipo, but he was not good enough for his contract number that starts this year). Evan Fournier makes more than THJ.

Also, your logic about Phil hating THJ and Mills loving him because Mills signed him once Phil left is ridiculous. The player Phil traded away in 2015 is not the same player we signed in 2017. We cares if we traded him away, what does that matter? Should OKC not go after Harden in the future because they once dealt him? I'm sure all Mills cares about is proving to Dolan that he was right about THJ...Dolan who would never fire Mills in 1,000,000 years, yet Mills is doing this to please Dolan. Why couldn't he have just signed a good young player to a contract that is being WILDLY exaggerated here as a huge overpay. If it was up to some of you, we would just never sign anyone because literally every contract signed is an overpay.

Well , that's a fair point but I guess his defense the first time around here was so abysmal that I intuitively have trouble picturing Hardaway as a good defender. On top of that, from everything I read online after the signing it was stated that his defense has improved but is still not good. So I guess I just drew the conclusion for myself that his defense has gone from abysmal to below average or something. That coupled with the fact that he still does not rebound or pass the ball much makes me conclude that we way overpaid.

I think what I found most dissapointing was the timing. I still don't understand why at our current stage, we would gamble on a player like Hardaway who at best projects to be what? A solid starter? This move just does not strike me as intelligent management of a team. I still hope for the best. I hope Timmy comes out and shuts all critical voices, including myself up.

[BKlutch]

Portland would be crazy to do that. Melo will be almost 35 by the end of this contract. Extending a player that has struggled to ever be in top shape for 3 years and big bucks is a recipe for desaster over there. That team would not only struggle to win one game against the warriors, but they'd probably have trouble getting out of the first round. Let alone having a 37year old Melo on the books making somewhere around 20mill.

Who cares if they're crazy? That's Portland's problem, not ours.

The Yankees did it for years, and they sucked. Paid ARoid 25+ million /year when he couldn't even take the field.

We paid Amare to play on 1 knee.

So even though they're crazy, let's hope they decide to do it. (also, see my comment about sugar babies above. Ever seen what you have after 10 years of supporting a sugar baby? It's called shyt.)

I think that is the only way to entice Melo to expand his list. For the team to give him an extension and Paul Allen is the man to do it.

It's always possible, and this is the first time I've seen anybody seriously mention this idea here. So maybe it could happen. As I said, let anybody with money feel free to throw it away however he wants, as long as it's helping the Knicks. Maybe you can reach out to them and share your idea... the Knicks would have to at least give you a courtside seat next to Spike Lee if you could do that

[Basketball1981]

We DO have a low post defender in Porzingis and a POTENTIAL wing defender in Ntilikina and a Vet wing defender in CLee (if we keep him).

It's not ideal 90's NLR Knicks, but it's a step in the right direction.

--Mags

When the Knicks added Earl Monroe to the back court, it was said he didn't play D, so he wouldn't fit in with the team. It was also said that he couldn't share the ball, so he and Frazier would never work well together in the back court. Wrong on both counts.

If we have good D from the other big, I'm fairly sure Timmy will buy into the team defensive plans, even if he's not the best defender man to man. So we could be fine, if the coach is able to do his part.

This is the kind of thing we'll have to see as the season develops - it's one of those things we can't know now just from statistics.

From a SG standpoint, if he drops 17+ PPG on decent or better percentages, then at $16.5 Million / year, I'd consider it a HUGE win for Mills & Perry.

By comparison, Crabbe and Bazemore make $17 Million / year.

Harden and Wade are big competitors, and they said he looked good. So...

--Mags

I'm not sure if I agree. If Hardaway had some second dimension to his game I may have agreed. But 17points and nothing much else? Is that worh 17.75mill. a year (That's the average over the 4 years) ?
I just don't see it. As much as I sometimes try to rationalize this signing I firmly believe that Hardaway will be overpaid by about 4-5 mill. a year throughout the length of his contract. If it was up to me I would have tried to preserve maximum capspace. However if we had to sign Hardaway then 4years/55mill. would have been the absolute most I would have considered tolerable.

[Basketball1981]

I also don't think that comparing this contract to Crabbe or Bazemore makes it really better. If there is a team that should have learned his lessons from a series of past overpays then it should be the Knicks (especially considering the fact that the man handing out this contract has been here for a long time now). Just because other teams make stupid mistakes and overpay players does not really make me feel much better.

[Basketball1981]

Ballboy, were you lurking here for 20 years spying on us and what we wrote?
Or were you another member in a previous incarnation?

Statistics my friend. I say if you take 50 knick fans and let them have a debate over whether to sign this or that player then 9 out of 10 times they would come out with the right approach. You think there was the slightest chance 50 knick fans would have ok'd a 71mill. signing of Hardaway? Or a 100mill. signing of Allan Houston? I remember when the Houston signing was anounced....knick fans were completely baffled. I was posting on a small site back then and I remember the reaction. Literally 98% were saying that this move was beyond stupid. 2% tried to rationalize it. Well in the end it was one of the major first terrible moves that set in motion a series of terrible follow up moves.

With one possible exception. we've had horrible GM's for decades who made horrible moves. I can't imagine that any GM was motivated by his predecessor's mistakes to just make more mistakes. We've got to look for the common factor behind all this mess. Hmm... who could it have been that was here all this time? Oh, maybe the owner? Nah, couldn't have been that nice Jimmy fellow.

You are right that this board would never have approved any of the bad signings we had. In fact, we wouldn't have really approved anything with a strong majority, not even if we could have had prime MJ and prime Lebron in exchange for Chris Duhon. We're not known for all having the same opinions around here.

Well, it is about time you stopped spending time on that small site and came over here. What took you so long?

Dolan is obviously the biggest problem of this franchise. But since this problem seems to be unfixable for the forseeable future, I choose to channel my anger at more fixable problems......At some point the thought of Dolan owning this franchise for another 30 years became so painful that I just completely blocked it out of my consciousness....

[BKlutch]

Statistics my friend. I say if you take 50 knick fans and let them have a debate over whether to sign this or that player then 9 out of 10 times they would come out with the right approach. You think there was the slightest chance 50 knick fans would have ok'd a 71mill. signing of Hardaway? Or a 100mill. signing of Allan Houston? I remember when the Houston signing was anounced....knick fans were completely baffled. I was posting on a small site back then and I remember the reaction. Literally 98% were saying that this move was beyond stupid. 2% tried to rationalize it. Well in the end it was one of the major first terrible moves that set in motion a series of terrible follow up moves.

With one possible exception. we've had horrible GM's for decades who made horrible moves. I can't imagine that any GM was motivated by his predecessor's mistakes to just make more mistakes. We've got to look for the common factor behind all this mess. Hmm... who could it have been that was here all this time? Oh, maybe the owner? Nah, couldn't have been that nice Jimmy fellow.

You are right that this board would never have approved any of the bad signings we had. In fact, we wouldn't have really approved anything with a strong majority, not even if we could have had prime MJ and prime Lebron in exchange for Chris Duhon. We're not known for all having the same opinions around here.

Well, it is about time you stopped spending time on that small site and came over here. What took you so long?

Dolan is obviously the biggest problem of this franchise. But since this problem seems to be unfixable for the forseeable future, I choose to channel my anger at more fixable problems......At some point the thought of Dolan owning this franchise for another 30 years became so painful that I just completely blocked it out of my consciousness....

There's nothing we can do to change the owner of the Knicks, but what I can hope is that if Perry gradually succeeds in improving the team and creating a strong, successful front office, Dolan will back off and not interfere. He's done this with the Rangers. Maybe he will allow this. Phil butted heads with Dolan, so Dolan struck back by firing him.

This is not to say that what Phil was doing was right, but it does show how difficult it is for the billionaire to let others determine how successful his business is. We'll have to wait and see more from Perry before we know how this will end up.

[NoLayupRule]

THJr's defense was better, but it still wasn't good. He can be hidden in a good team defensive scheme though.

well we sure dont have one of those

We DO have a low post defender in Porzingis and a POTENTIAL wing defender in Ntilikina and a Vet wing defender in CLee (if we keep him).

It's not ideal 90's NLR Knicks, but it's a step in the right direction.

--Mags

Fair enough

But what we lack is a culture of defense

Noah, koq, Kp, frank and lee are all excellent defenders. Willy is good too. But the team fails to play together

[magnumt]

well we sure dont have one of those

We DO have a low post defender in Porzingis and a POTENTIAL wing defender in Ntilikina and a Vet wing defender in CLee (if we keep him).

It's not ideal 90's NLR Knicks, but it's a step in the right direction.

--Mags

Fair enough

But what we lack is a culture of defense

Noah, koq, Kp, frank and lee are all excellent defenders. Willy is good too. But the team fails to play together

Agreed.

Hopefully all of these top down changes help.

--Mags

[Adelheid]

When the Knicks added Earl Monroe to the back court, it was said he didn't play D, so he wouldn't fit in with the team. It was also said that he couldn't share the ball, so he and Frazier would never work well together in the back court. Wrong on both counts.

If we have good D from the other big, I'm fairly sure Timmy will buy into the team defensive plans, even if he's not the best defender man to man. So we could be fine, if the coach is able to do his part.

This is the kind of thing we'll have to see as the season develops - it's one of those things we can't know now just from statistics.

From a SG standpoint, if he drops 17+ PPG on decent or better percentages, then at $16.5 Million / year, I'd consider it a HUGE win for Mills & Perry.

By comparison, Crabbe and Bazemore make $17 Million / year.

Harden and Wade are big competitors, and they said he looked good. So...

--Mags

This board can argue for 10 years if Mills paid too much for THJ, or if he paid more than Perry would have... but why?

The gamble to get the guy (Timmy) is quite baffling. Almost everyone is virtually scratching their heads. It doesnt sit well with many that a FO offers a contract targetting a player's potential rather than what he is now (Baker's contract is kinda similar too). If the Knicks do this on every signing, we would cap out so easily with less talent overall. I wonder sometimes if there is some nepotism involved in that signing.

[BKlutch]

We DO have a low post defender in Porzingis and a POTENTIAL wing defender in Ntilikina and a Vet wing defender in CLee (if we keep him).

It's not ideal 90's NLR Knicks, but it's a step in the right direction.

--Mags

Fair enough

But what we lack is a culture of defense

Noah, koq, Kp, frank and lee are all excellent defenders. Willy is good too. But the team fails to play together

Agreed.

Hopefully all of these top down changes help.

--Mags

Can I just repeat the key phrase here so everybody doesn't miss it?

Hopefully all of these top down changes help.

[newyorker4ever]

With one possible exception. we've had horrible GM's for decades who made horrible moves. I can't imagine that any GM was motivated by his predecessor's mistakes to just make more mistakes. We've got to look for the common factor behind all this mess. Hmm... who could it have been that was here all this time? Oh, maybe the owner? Nah, couldn't have been that nice Jimmy fellow.

You are right that this board would never have approved any of the bad signings we had. In fact, we wouldn't have really approved anything with a strong majority, not even if we could have had prime MJ and prime Lebron in exchange for Chris Duhon. We're not known for all having the same opinions around here.

Well, it is about time you stopped spending time on that small site and came over here. What took you so long?

Dolan is obviously the biggest problem of this franchise. But since this problem seems to be unfixable for the forseeable future, I choose to channel my anger at more fixable problems......At some point the thought of Dolan owning this franchise for another 30 years became so painful that I just completely blocked it out of my consciousness....

There's nothing we can do to change the owner of the Knicks, but what I can hope is that if Perry gradually succeeds in improving the team and creating a strong, successful front office, Dolan will back off and not interfere. He's done this with the Rangers. Maybe he will allow this. Phil butted heads with Dolan, so Dolan struck back by firing him.

This is not to say that what Phil was doing was right, but it does show how difficult it is for the billionaire to let others determine how successful his business is. We'll have to wait and see more from Perry before we know how this will end up.

What? Dolan did and has backed off and not interfere with Phil and now S.Mills and when did Phil and Dolan butt heads?

[BKlutch]

Dolan is obviously the biggest problem of this franchise. But since this problem seems to be unfixable for the forseeable future, I choose to channel my anger at more fixable problems......At some point the thought of Dolan owning this franchise for another 30 years became so painful that I just completely blocked it out of my consciousness....

There's nothing we can do to change the owner of the Knicks, but what I can hope is that if Perry gradually succeeds in improving the team and creating a strong, successful front office, Dolan will back off and not interfere. He's done this with the Rangers. Maybe he will allow this. Phil butted heads with Dolan, so Dolan struck back by firing him.

This is not to say that what Phil was doing was right, but it does show how difficult it is for the billionaire to let others determine how successful his business is. We'll have to wait and see more from Perry before we know how this will end up.

What? Dolan did and has backed off and not interfere with Phil and now S.Mills and when did Phil and Dolan butt heads?

Do you remember that Dolan fired Phil? If you do, then what is the question?

[newyorker4ever]

There's nothing we can do to change the owner of the Knicks, but what I can hope is that if Perry gradually succeeds in improving the team and creating a strong, successful front office, Dolan will back off and not interfere. He's done this with the Rangers. Maybe he will allow this. Phil butted heads with Dolan, so Dolan struck back by firing him.

This is not to say that what Phil was doing was right, but it does show how difficult it is for the billionaire to let others determine how successful his business is. We'll have to wait and see more from Perry before we know how this will end up.

What? Dolan did and has backed off and not interfere with Phil and now S.Mills and when did Phil and Dolan butt heads?

Do you remember that Dolan fired Phil? If you do, then what is the question?

I asked how they butt heads but i have a feeling your answer is gonna be that firing him would be butting heads which really isn't quite butting heads but okay.

[GONYK]

There's nothing we can do to change the owner of the Knicks, but what I can hope is that if Perry gradually succeeds in improving the team and creating a strong, successful front office, Dolan will back off and not interfere. He's done this with the Rangers. Maybe he will allow this. Phil butted heads with Dolan, so Dolan struck back by firing him.

This is not to say that what Phil was doing was right, but it does show how difficult it is for the billionaire to let others determine how successful his business is. We'll have to wait and see more from Perry before we know how this will end up.

What? Dolan did and has backed off and not interfere with Phil and now S.Mills and when did Phil and Dolan butt heads?

Do you remember that Dolan fired Phil? If you do, then what is the question?

Dolan allowed A LOT to happen before he fired Phil. I don't really think there is a strong case that he meddled with Phil.

[Dantares]

not going to lie. i am so annoyed with morey I am starting to lean towards the keep melo camp. If we make the playoffs and KP becomes a superstar and Frank proves he is a legit PG this year then we can sign Lebron in the summer and give Morey the middle finger.

Frank
Timmy
Bron
Melo
KP

then

Willy
Baker
Lee
+ a few ringchasers

off the bench is ridiculous firepower and defense.