How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[CoreyGallagher]

Jokic is slowly becoming the most over rated player in my lifetime

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-is-suddenly-one-of-the-best-young-nba-players-of-all-time/

Its crazy how facts work, I know.

Crazy how people believe stats so blindly.... I guess he'll finish off better then Kareem based on stats

Probably not, but he is probably great.

[walk with me]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-is-suddenly-one-of-the-best-young-nba-players-of-all-time/

Its crazy how facts work, I know.

Crazy how people believe stats so blindly.... I guess he'll finish off better then Kareem based on stats

Probably not, but he is probably great.

He's the most over rated player in my lifetime

[Sharkboy242]

Sorry I cant take people who worship advanced stats seriously. If there wasnt a sect pushing this ridiculous notion that Jokic is better than Towns I wouldnt feel the need to mock it so thoroughly.

Go ahead and mock it, it just makes you look like a triggered little man-child. Jokic isn't a bad person so the fact that you feel the need to disparage his character says a lot about the kind of person you are.

Maybe you should take the 2-2 argument to the cult members who tried to preach Jokic was better because of team success on the sub .500 nuggets? Shouldnt his greatness propelled them to better than a split with the lowly wolves?

This is a totally moot point. By the same token the Cavs wen't 1-1 against the Nuggets: shouldnt Lebron's greatness propelled them to better than a split with the lowly Nuggets?

I love when people suggest I cant understand advanced metrics because it highlights their projection. These same people cant recognize how the metrics are flawed and the team around the player and role matter.

Projection? I am perfectly capable of understanding the shortcomings of advanced metrics and so are most people. No one here has made extraordinary claims with regards to Jokic and KAT. One had an empirically better season in terms of advanced stats; one had a better season in terms of raw overall stats. No one is debating this, we're merely extrapolating from there. Then there are people like you who are so appalled by the notion that advanced stats say one player is clearly better than the other. I am not sure why that fact is so appalling to you. Its like your autistic mind cant fathom the fact that someone who doesn't jump high and run fast, can still be elite in the NBA.

Im not disparaging Jokic and have nothing against him, my mocking is directed solely at the confused kids who try to pump him up as more than he is.

I agree its a stupid argument, which is why I didnt bring up their records and mocked the notion of it.

I disagree with the formulas of many advanced stats and therefor disagree with their determinations. I simply dont lend credence to "advanced stats say this" because the logic behind many of them are flawed in trying to quantify team based events and turn them into individual numbers.

Kevin Durants had a net DBPM of 1.2 over *9* seasons with OKC, so basically an average of 0.13 DPM, with a one time high of 1.4 and never above 1 in any other season.

Last year it was 2.6.

Is this because Durant suddenly became a completely different player? Just out of nowhere improved astronomically in his TENTH season? GTFO LOL. Its because the stats you want to use to preach Jokic>Towns are flawed trash which relies heavily on the team and role.

Look, I don't take issue with your stance on thinking that KAT is a better player than Jokic. I take issue with the fact that in order to try to make this claim true, you belittle Jokic's ability. You've tried to paint him as this player that is only good because he can pass, you parrot the fact that he can only play 28 MPG without ever even knowing or caring why that is the case. You try to paint him as someone who only appears good on paper, which is totally false.

Anyone who actually watches him play, and its evident you dont, knows that Jokic is so much more than a better passer. His vision is elite, his midrange shooting is elite, his rebounding is exceptional, his teammate impact is elite. Everything besides defense Jokic does exceptionally well. Hell, even his post-up is elite and I would be very surprised if KAT has a high FG% on ISO post ups than Jokic. If you really think all he does is 'pass well', you owe it to yourself to educate yourself and not spew such ignorant information.

Watch on YouTube

[Rashoismydad]

I love how advanced metrics are something a player "pads" now. Yeah, Jokic just "padded" his way to absolutely dominating every impact metric imaginable. RAPM, RPM, net on/off, net rating, BPM, literally every single metric that sheds light on how much a player impacts the game when he's on the floor...Jokic comes out on top, absolutely crushing it. But nah, just stat padding.

The Nuggets in the 25 games before they locked in Jokic as the starter...#18 offense in the league. In the 57 games since he took over, they literally had the best offense in the entire league. It's funny, it's almost like Jokic's advanced stat padding actually worked.

I didnt mean "stat padding" in the sense of a guy just doing something to make his numbers look better, I should have been more clear on that. I think Jokic plays his style because its his style, not to impress advanced stat cultists. But assists from a big man are overly weighed, just like rebounding numbers are in defensive metrics. DBPM considers Kevin Love to be a net neutral player because he cleans glass, but anybody who has ever watched Love knows hes a poor defender. Your stats lie but you worship all the same, and some guys simply hit the right notes to impress the advanced metrics more than others.

As I said, put Jokic in Towns role and watch his efficiency numbers plummet. Ask him to be a #1 offensive option and watch his assists drop. Ask him to play 37 MPG and watch his efficiency drop as he tires. Apples to oranges, but you have flawed advanced metrics to pray to.

I dont know about you, but im going to go watch those vids again. Each time KAT blows by Jokic like hes standing still and dunks on him, or flies past Jokic for a putback dunk because he didnt box out, drops a hook over him, buries a turnaround, or knocks down a 3 cuz Jokic cant close out on him I will say to myself "yeah, but advanced stats bro".

[Sharkboy242]

Jokic is slowly becoming the most over rated player in my lifetime

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-is-suddenly-one-of-the-best-young-nba-players-of-all-time/

Its crazy how facts work, I know.

Crazy how people believe stats so blindly.... I guess he'll finish off better then Kareem based on stats

Or you could just watch the Nuggets play and not sound like a total ignoramus.

[Prez]

I dont know about you, but im going to go watch those vids again. Each time KAT blows by Jokic like hes standing still and dunks on him, or flies past Jokic for a putback dunk because he didnt box out, drops a hook over him, buries a turnaround, or knocks down a 3 cuz Jokic cant close out on him I will say to myself "yeah, but advanced stats bro".

Watch on YouTube

Yeah, I think I'm gonna base my evaluation of Jokic on more than a couple highlight videos on youtube.

[YourBuddy]

How come people are trashing Jokic's team record when it blew Town's team out of the water? Minnesota arguably had more talent and a better coach but Denver was a better team clearly. Where are the people calling for Towns head that he couldn't lead his team to the playoffs?

I seriously think that if you swap their draft position, they would be looked at very differently. People get so caught up on the draft slot. Just like Kyrie and Isaiah. They're so close in skill but a gulf separates them in draft position and that'll always be at the back of some peoples minds

Maybe because wins are a team stat and not an individual stat? While Wiggins and Lavine were great offensive talents they both provided little else and in a team defense concept were atrocious. Look at the number of games the wolves lead by double digits and subsequently lost. The advanced stats cult members wont recognize that going on advanced stats the wolves should have won significantly more games because it doesnt suit their argument. This is where reality intervenes, and inexperience and youth impacts the real world W/L column while letting the advanced stats live in their fantasy of what could/should be. An advanced stat doesnt account for making a dumb young player mistake at a crucial part of the game, it merely sums up the total and paints a distorted picture.

As for draft position, this argument only holds water for a short period. Nobody is holding onto Kyrie being better than Kawhi because one is drafted higher. Nobody didnt recognize Manus ability because he was a second rounder. Guys drafted lower have lower expectations, this is logical, theres a reason they were picked lower. But it is something that becomes a non issue once a player shows himself in the NBA. My not recognizing Jokic as being at KATs level has nothing to do with draft position and everything to do with talent and ability. I will repeat again, one is on a sure fire first ballot HOF trajectory, the youngest to ever hit 2000/1000, and statistically unmatched by any big outside of all time greats like Duncan and Shaq. The other cant get on the court for 28 minutes a game in his second season but due to a passing mentality which nets him a few extra assists and pads advanced stats is somehow mentioned in the same breath by some of you.

It is really amazing. This board trashed Wiggins and LaVine for a variety of advanced statistics. They trash Rubio for his shooting. But all that disappears when they need to show that Towns had talent around him and his team record was disappointing.

[Rashoismydad]

Look, I don't take issue with your stance on thinking that KAT is a better player than Jokic. I take issue with the fact that in order to try to make this claim true, you belittle Jokic's ability. You've tried to paint him as this player that is only good because he can pass, you parrot the fact that he can only play 28 MPG without ever even knowing or caring why that is the case. You try to paint him as someone who only appears good on paper, which is totally false.

Anyone who actually watches him play, and its evident you dont, knows that Jokic is so much more than a better passer. His vision is elite, his midrange shooting is elite, his rebounding is exceptional, his teammate impact is elite. Everything besides defense Jokic does exceptionally well. Hell, even his post-up is elite and I would be very surprised if KAT has a high FG% on ISO post ups than Jokic. If you really think all he does is score, you owe it to yourself to educate yourself and not spew such ignorant information.

Watch on YouTube

Dont get me wrong, I think Jokic is a very good player and havent claimed otherwise. I said he could potentially make some all star teams and its not like im calling him some Dleague scrub. Hes an efficient and fairly versatile scorer, very good rebounder, and a very good passer for a big, im not trying to take that away from him. I just think its laughable to talk about him in the same breath with guys who have the potential to be the best players on championship caliber teams like Towns, Giannis, and Embiid.

I know, I know...but advanced stats! I have no desire to be stuck on this merry go round, im sorry some of you blindly follow advanced stats without understanding they are ineffective measures of individual players. My Durant going to GSW example is one of many which highlights the foolishness of using stats based on a team to evaluate an individual. Towns is a cheat code, a 7 footer who can take the ball the length of the court in traffic, come of a screen to hit a 3, dominate in the post, facilitate, rebound, block shots, and do it all as a primary threat. I watched nearly every game of Kevin Garnetts career, and this just reminds me of all the Denver fans telling me how Antonio Mcdyess was just as good or better.

Again, one looks to be a first ballot HOF type player, the other is a very good player. Sorry if I dont allow misguided advanced stats to convince me otherwise.

[Rashoismydad]

I dont know about you, but im going to go watch those vids again. Each time KAT blows by Jokic like hes standing still and dunks on him, or flies past Jokic for a putback dunk because he didnt box out, drops a hook over him, buries a turnaround, or knocks down a 3 cuz Jokic cant close out on him I will say to myself "yeah, but advanced stats bro".

Watch on YouTube

Yeah, I think I'm gonna base my evaluation of Jokic on more than a couple highlight videos on youtube.

That would hold some water if there was anything statistically to suggest those players are in the same league. Towns didnt simply have a lone big game, in fact his games against Jokic were fairly average by his standards, hes just that good.

Keep grasping at those straws and crying "advanced statistics!"

You care to explain how Durant went from a career average DBPM of 0.13 to 2.6? Was it because he became a completely new player in his tenth season? Or are your advanced stats trash? Tell me more about how im autistic and simply cant comprehend advanced stats! I comprehend them fine, have looked at how they are calculated, and determined most of them to be awful.

The Jokic fanboys will be hiding under rocks this time next year. Towns will continue to ascend, his "advanced stats" will all greatly improve with a better team around him, and you wont have a leg to stand on.

[Rashoismydad]

I am no longer going to refer to Nikola Jokic by name, he will now be known as "advanced stats".

[Nuggets_Talk]

Ok, just so we are clear you don't actually know what all 30 GMs would do then?

http://www.nba.com/gmsurvey/2016

Why did GMs overwhelming choose Towns as the player to build around last season and Jokic didnt even get an honorable mention?

Other names on the list?
Kevin Durant, Lebron James, Curry, westbrook, kawhi, AD

No Jokic?!?

But all the advanced stats cult members told me even his rookie year was better than Towns! I mean, look at his per36 numbers!

When the GM survey comes out this year the story will be the same. Giannis and Embiid will be listed and Jokic wont even be an honorable mention.

Unfortunately that doesn't support your argument.

[Duke4life831]

Sorry I cant take people who worship advanced stats seriously. If there wasnt a sect pushing this ridiculous notion that Jokic is better than Towns I wouldnt feel the need to mock it so thoroughly.

Maybe you should take the 2-2 argument to the cult members who tried to preach Jokic was better because of team success on the sub .500 nuggets? Shouldnt his greatness propelled them to better than a split with the lowly wolves?

I love when people suggest I cant understand advanced metrics because it highlights their projection. These same people cant recognize how the metrics are flawed and the team around the player and role matter.

The nuggets played their youth more?!? 2 of their top 3 minutes played went to Gallinari and Chandler and Jameer Nelson got the bulk of their PG minutes. Look at the wolves, Towns/Wiggins/Lavine were far and away the highest MPG players on the team, and not in supplementary roles either.

Jokic didnt have a better season than Towns and you should be embarrassed for allowing those words to be attributed to you. Towns became the youngest player to ever get 2000 points and 1000 rebounds (something Jokic will never do) while throwing in 100+ 3s as icing. They should really amend the stories written about it on all the national basketball sites and inform everybody that it wasnt as good as Jokics 28 MPG role player season.

So its a ridiculous notion that Nokic is better than Towns? It cant just be that theyre close and some people think Jokic is better? And the people that have watched Nokic and think hes better than Towns reference his advanced numbers to back up what theyre saying. And its not like theyre referencing some obscure advanced stats to back it up. Jokic is top 10 in PER, RPM, WS/48, BPM and VORP. If you look at the other players that are in the top 10 with him in those stats, its nothing but elite players. So I have a hard time believing that these advanced stats tend to do a good job showing the top 10 players but Jokic just so happens to be the only player that somehow padded his advanced stats to be on the top 10. And its not just individual stats either, Denver was a middle of the pack offense before Jokic started, once he started they had a better offense than GS. I dont think thats a coincidence.

[Rashoismydad]

Ok, just so we are clear you don't actually know what all 30 GMs would do then?

http://www.nba.com/gmsurvey/2016

Why did GMs overwhelming choose Towns as the player to build around last season and Jokic didnt even get an honorable mention?

Other names on the list?
Kevin Durant, Lebron James, Curry, westbrook, kawhi, AD

No Jokic?!?

But all the advanced stats cult members told me even his rookie year was better than Towns! I mean, look at his per36 numbers!

When the GM survey comes out this year the story will be the same. Giannis and Embiid will be listed and Jokic wont even be an honorable mention.

Unfortunately that doesn't support your argument.

If you dont believe so then you dont understand the argument.

[Nuggets_Talk]

What I'm noticing is rashoismydad starts with a premise (kat >jokic) and then just cherry pick whichever stats, observations, etc support it and laugh at/disregard whatever stats don't.

It's like he has come to a conclusion and since he really wants it to be true (which it may or may not be) he will alter his arguments accordingly just to be sure it is supported.

[RaptorsLife]

Kat is better. 2 more years and will be will be a too 3 player in this league

[Nuggets_Talk]

Crazy how people believe stats so blindly.... I guess he'll finish off better then Kareem based on stats

Probably not, but he is probably great.

He's the most over rated player in my lifetime

How old are you so we know what time period we are dealing with? Your lifetime could be 1950-present or could be 2004-present. Makes a big difference

[Prez]

I dont know about you, but im going to go watch those vids again. Each time KAT blows by Jokic like hes standing still and dunks on him, or flies past Jokic for a putback dunk because he didnt box out, drops a hook over him, buries a turnaround, or knocks down a 3 cuz Jokic cant close out on him I will say to myself "yeah, but advanced stats bro".

Watch on YouTube

Yeah, I think I'm gonna base my evaluation of Jokic on more than a couple highlight videos on youtube.

That would hold some water if there was anything statistically to suggest those players are in the same league. Towns didnt simply have a lone big game, in fact his games against Jokic were fairly average by his standards, hes just that good.

Keep grasping at those straws and crying "advanced statistics!"

You care to explain how Durant went from a career average DBPM of 0.13 to 2.6? Was it because he became a completely new player in his tenth season? Or are your advanced stats trash? Tell me more about how im autistic and simply cant comprehend advanced stats! I comprehend them fine, have looked at how they are calculated, and determined most of them to be awful.

The Jokic fanboys will be hiding under rocks this time next year. Towns will continue to ascend, his "advanced stats" will all greatly improve with a better team around him, and you wont have a leg to stand on.

Wait, you mean like Jokic topping Towns in basically every impact stat imaginable?

[Nuggets_Talk]

http://www.nba.com/gmsurvey/2016

Why did GMs overwhelming choose Towns as the player to build around last season and Jokic didnt even get an honorable mention?

Other names on the list?
Kevin Durant, Lebron James, Curry, westbrook, kawhi, AD

No Jokic?!?

But all the advanced stats cult members told me even his rookie year was better than Towns! I mean, look at his per36 numbers!

When the GM survey comes out this year the story will be the same. Giannis and Embiid will be listed and Jokic wont even be an honorable mention.

Unfortunately that doesn't support your argument.

If you dont believe so then you dont understand the argument.

I thought you were claiming all 30 GMs would take kat over jokic.
That poll does not support that claim.

[12footrim]

As I said, put Jokic in Towns role and watch his efficiency numbers plummet. Ask him to be a #1 offensive option and watch his assists drop. Ask him to play 37 MPG and watch his efficiency drop as he tires. Apples to oranges, but you have flawed advanced metrics to pray to.

The Milsap Doctrine

It was actually a study that showed this is untrue. In most cases for lower minute guys or back ups players efficiency went up the more defined their role is. The conclusion was they were allowed to start the game and get better more defined rest, were allowed to stay in and warm up which HELPED, not coming off the bench cold or sitting on it long stretches and getting cold and tight, and probably most importantly werent looking over their shoulder worried about getting pulled when they had more freedom.

Pretty much exactly what happened with Jokic when Malone stopped dicking around with him at PF and gave him the keys. All of his advanced stats include an entire month of that where he was horrible as well when Malone was playing him with Nurkic, and they were still amazing by the end. He only got better the more he played. That's just a fact and most players do.

37 minutes isn't outrageous either. It's higher today but a few years ago it wouldn't even be in the top 20 of minutes played and those players were just as efficient with most of the stars were the ones playing more. Some of the highest eff seasons ever were recorded back then too.

[azcatz11]

I am no longer going to refer to Nikola Jokic by name, he will now be known as "advanced stats".

You are triggering quite a few posters

I think it's very entertaining reading your posts, especially the valet analogy haha.

Nothing to add to this debate, but +1 on entertaining posts!