How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

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Who would you rather have?

Poll ended at Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:12 pm

Jokic
119
26%
KAT
267
59%
Porzingis
69
15%
 
Total votes: 455

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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#301 » by Sharkboy242 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:00 pm

Prez wrote:
Rashoismydad wrote:
Prez wrote:

Yeah, I think I'm gonna base my evaluation of Jokic on more than a couple highlight videos on youtube.


That would hold some water if there was anything statistically to suggest those players are in the same league. Towns didnt simply have a lone big game, in fact his games against Jokic were fairly average by his standards, hes just that good.

Keep grasping at those straws and crying "advanced statistics!"

You care to explain how Durant went from a career average DBPM of 0.13 to 2.6? Was it because he became a completely new player in his tenth season? Or are your advanced stats trash? :lol: Tell me more about how im autistic and simply cant comprehend advanced stats! I comprehend them fine, have looked at how they are calculated, and determined most of them to be awful.

The Jokic fanboys will be hiding under rocks this time next year. Towns will continue to ascend, his "advanced stats" will all greatly improve with a better team around him, and you wont have a leg to stand on.

Wait, you mean like Jokic topping Towns in basically every impact stat imaginable?

"Any stat that portrays Jokic in higher regard than KAT is fake news!" -Rashoismydad
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#302 » by Alatan » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:04 pm

Prez wrote:I love how advanced metrics are something a player "pads" now. Yeah, Jokic just "padded" his way to absolutely dominating every impact metric imaginable. RAPM, RPM, net on/off, net rating, BPM, literally every single metric that sheds light on how much a player impacts the game when he's on the floor...Jokic comes out on top, absolutely crushing it. But nah, just stat padding. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Nuggets in the 25 games before they locked in Jokic as the starter...#18 offense in the league. In the 57 games since he took over, they literally had the best offense in the entire league. It's funny, it's almost like Jokic's advanced stat padding actually worked.

Jokic padded his win rate as well, he is such a statpadder... :D
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#303 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:05 pm

Rashoismydad wrote:
Prez wrote:
Rashoismydad wrote:I dont know about you, but im going to go watch those vids again. Each time KAT blows by Jokic like hes standing still and dunks on him, or flies past Jokic for a putback dunk because he didnt box out, drops a hook over him, buries a turnaround, or knocks down a 3 cuz Jokic cant close out on him I will say to myself "yeah, but advanced stats bro".



Yeah, I think I'm gonna base my evaluation of Jokic on more than a couple highlight videos on youtube.


That would hold some water if there was anything statistically to suggest those players are in the same league. Towns didnt simply have a lone big game, in fact his games against Jokic were fairly average by his standards, hes just that good.

Keep grasping at those straws and crying "advanced statistics!"

You care to explain how Durant went from a career average DBPM of 0.13 to 2.6? Was it because he became a completely new player in his tenth season? Or are your advanced stats trash? :lol: Tell me more about how im autistic and simply cant comprehend advanced stats! I comprehend them fine, have looked at how they are calculated, and determined most of them to be awful.

The Jokic fanboys will be hiding under rocks this time next year. Towns will continue to ascend, his "advanced stats" will all greatly improve with a better team around him, and you wont have a leg to stand on.


Sure KD used to be an average defensive player but last year he put a lot more effort into his defense and was a much better defensive player and the stats actually back that up. I thought it was pretty obvious that KD's defense took a huge step last year, it was talked about a lot.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#304 » by Rashoismydad » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:10 pm

Alatan wrote:
Prez wrote:I love how advanced metrics are something a player "pads" now. Yeah, Jokic just "padded" his way to absolutely dominating every impact metric imaginable. RAPM, RPM, net on/off, net rating, BPM, literally every single metric that sheds light on how much a player impacts the game when he's on the floor...Jokic comes out on top, absolutely crushing it. But nah, just stat padding. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Nuggets in the 25 games before they locked in Jokic as the starter...#18 offense in the league. In the 57 games since he took over, they literally had the best offense in the entire league. It's funny, it's almost like Jokic's advanced stat padding actually worked.

Jokic padded his win rate as well, he is such a statpadder... :D


Apparently Advanced Stats is a one man team.

When will any of you tackle the Durant DBPM conundrum? I mean, look at the metrics! Durant became an entirely different player in his 10th season in the NBA, this is amazing!

Keep trying to use FLAWED statistics to prop up your ridiculous arguments. As a wolves fan I watched every game of Rubios career, "advanced stats" (not to be confused with Advanced Stats, the player formerly known as Nikola Jokic) could be spun to call him a top 3 PG in the entire NBA. I mean, look at his on off, DBPM, blah blah blah.

Like I said, this thread will age like wine for me and age like a head of lettuce for the Advanced Stats cultists.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#305 » by Rashoismydad » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:13 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:Sure KD used to be an average defensive player but last year he put a lot more effort into his defense and was a much better defensive player and the stats actually back that up. I thought it was pretty obvious that KD's defense took a huge step last year, it was talked about a lot.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, in his tenth year he became a drastically different player through sheer will and determination...which he apparently lacked for a decade. It obviously had nothing to do with the team around him, thats just crazy talk.

I cant even take you people seriously.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#306 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:22 pm

Rashoismydad wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Sure KD used to be an average defensive player but last year he put a lot more effort into his defense and was a much better defensive player and the stats actually back that up. I thought it was pretty obvious that KD's defense took a huge step last year, it was talked about a lot.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, in his tenth year he became a drastically different player through sheer will and determination...which he apparently lacked for a decade. It obviously had nothing to do with the team around him, thats just crazy talk.

I cant even take you people seriously.


He had a career high in blocks and DRB%. I actually think advanced stats on defense are pretty flawed. Klay had a -2 DBPM, Avery Bradley also had a negative DBPM. But just watching Kevin Durant, it was pretty clear that his defensive intensity was taken to another level in the playoffs in 2016 and he kept that going all throughout last season.

But again its not like its just one advanced stat that shows Jokic's impact. If it was just one advanced stat that showed it and all the other ones didnt, then I could buy it being a flaw in one advanced stat. I dont think the advanced stats are flawless. But we are talking about basically every single advanced stat shows Jokic having a bigger impact than Towns. And again its not just individual advanced stats, the Nuggets offense went from middle of the pack to the best in the league with Jokic.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#307 » by Alatan » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:41 pm

Rashoismydad wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Sure KD used to be an average defensive player but last year he put a lot more effort into his defense and was a much better defensive player and the stats actually back that up. I thought it was pretty obvious that KD's defense took a huge step last year, it was talked about a lot.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, in his tenth year he became a drastically different player through sheer will and determination...which he apparently lacked for a decade. It obviously had nothing to do with the team around him, thats just crazy talk.

I cant even take you people seriously.


Advanced stats are nowhere near perfect, they are more of a pointers that are analyzed alongside other stats and context but they are neither ignorable.
In case of Durant, playing in a better defensive makes your defense look better by covering your mistakes and it also allows you to focus more on your own opponent. Playing in a much better offense saves your energy and allows you to use it on the defensive end. There is also the possibility that Durant likes playing for GSW more and put more effort when playing there.
The bottom line is whether or not Durant's better defense is of his own making or product of his team, he did play better defense and advanced stats registered it.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#308 » by Alatan » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:53 pm

Rashoismydad wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Sure KD used to be an average defensive player but last year he put a lot more effort into his defense and was a much better defensive player and the stats actually back that up. I thought it was pretty obvious that KD's defense took a huge step last year, it was talked about a lot.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, in his tenth year he became a drastically different player through sheer will and determination...which he apparently lacked for a decade. It obviously had nothing to do with the team around him, thats just crazy talk.

I cant even take you people seriously.

Oh yeah, a good part of defense is the "sheer will and determination", KD all ready had the other parts.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#309 » by CometGM » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:58 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Rashoismydad wrote:
Sorry I cant take people who worship advanced stats seriously. If there wasnt a sect pushing this ridiculous notion that Jokic is better than Towns I wouldnt feel the need to mock it so thoroughly.

Maybe you should take the 2-2 argument to the cult members who tried to preach Jokic was better because of team success on the sub .500 nuggets? Shouldnt his greatness propelled them to better than a split with the lowly wolves?

I love when people suggest I cant understand advanced metrics because it highlights their projection. These same people cant recognize how the metrics are flawed and the team around the player and role matter.

The nuggets played their youth more?!? 2 of their top 3 minutes played went to Gallinari and Chandler and Jameer Nelson got the bulk of their PG minutes. Look at the wolves, Towns/Wiggins/Lavine were far and away the highest MPG players on the team, and not in supplementary roles either.

Jokic didnt have a better season than Towns and you should be embarrassed for allowing those words to be attributed to you. Towns became the youngest player to ever get 2000 points and 1000 rebounds (something Jokic will never do) while throwing in 100+ 3s as icing. They should really amend the stories written about it on all the national basketball sites and inform everybody that it wasnt as good as Jokics 28 MPG role player season.


So its a ridiculous notion that Nokic is better than Towns? It cant just be that theyre close and some people think Jokic is better? And the people that have watched Nokic and think hes better than Towns reference his advanced numbers to back up what theyre saying. And its not like theyre referencing some obscure advanced stats to back it up. Jokic is top 10 in PER, RPM, WS/48, BPM and VORP. If you look at the other players that are in the top 10 with him in those stats, its nothing but elite players. So I have a hard time believing that these advanced stats tend to do a good job showing the top 10 players but Jokic just so happens to be the only player that somehow padded his advanced stats to be on the top 10. And its not just individual stats either, Denver was a middle of the pack offense before Jokic started, once he started they had a better offense than GS. I dont think thats a coincidence.


It is a ridiculous notion. Do you think anybody with an actual GM job will select Jokic over Towns to start a franchise?
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#310 » by ishoy123 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:00 pm

CometGM wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Rashoismydad wrote:
Sorry I cant take people who worship advanced stats seriously. If there wasnt a sect pushing this ridiculous notion that Jokic is better than Towns I wouldnt feel the need to mock it so thoroughly.

Maybe you should take the 2-2 argument to the cult members who tried to preach Jokic was better because of team success on the sub .500 nuggets? Shouldnt his greatness propelled them to better than a split with the lowly wolves?

I love when people suggest I cant understand advanced metrics because it highlights their projection. These same people cant recognize how the metrics are flawed and the team around the player and role matter.

The nuggets played their youth more?!? 2 of their top 3 minutes played went to Gallinari and Chandler and Jameer Nelson got the bulk of their PG minutes. Look at the wolves, Towns/Wiggins/Lavine were far and away the highest MPG players on the team, and not in supplementary roles either.

Jokic didnt have a better season than Towns and you should be embarrassed for allowing those words to be attributed to you. Towns became the youngest player to ever get 2000 points and 1000 rebounds (something Jokic will never do) while throwing in 100+ 3s as icing. They should really amend the stories written about it on all the national basketball sites and inform everybody that it wasnt as good as Jokics 28 MPG role player season.


So its a ridiculous notion that Nokic is better than Towns? It cant just be that theyre close and some people think Jokic is better? And the people that have watched Nokic and think hes better than Towns reference his advanced numbers to back up what theyre saying. And its not like theyre referencing some obscure advanced stats to back it up. Jokic is top 10 in PER, RPM, WS/48, BPM and VORP. If you look at the other players that are in the top 10 with him in those stats, its nothing but elite players. So I have a hard time believing that these advanced stats tend to do a good job showing the top 10 players but Jokic just so happens to be the only player that somehow padded his advanced stats to be on the top 10. And its not just individual stats either, Denver was a middle of the pack offense before Jokic started, once he started they had a better offense than GS. I dont think thats a coincidence.


It is a ridiculous notion. Do you think anybody with an actual GM job will select Jokic over Towns to start a franchise?


Yes
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#311 » by CometGM » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:03 pm

ishoy123 wrote:
CometGM wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
So its a ridiculous notion that Nokic is better than Towns? It cant just be that theyre close and some people think Jokic is better? And the people that have watched Nokic and think hes better than Towns reference his advanced numbers to back up what theyre saying. And its not like theyre referencing some obscure advanced stats to back it up. Jokic is top 10 in PER, RPM, WS/48, BPM and VORP. If you look at the other players that are in the top 10 with him in those stats, its nothing but elite players. So I have a hard time believing that these advanced stats tend to do a good job showing the top 10 players but Jokic just so happens to be the only player that somehow padded his advanced stats to be on the top 10. And its not just individual stats either, Denver was a middle of the pack offense before Jokic started, once he started they had a better offense than GS. I dont think thats a coincidence.


It is a ridiculous notion. Do you think anybody with an actual GM job will select Jokic over Towns to start a franchise?


Yes


We'll see soon enough when the GMs have their annual survey. Will come back to this post.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#312 » by Big Mac Biyombo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:10 pm

CometGM wrote:
ishoy123 wrote:
CometGM wrote:
It is a ridiculous notion. Do you think anybody with an actual GM job will select Jokic over Towns to start a franchise?


Yes


We'll see soon enough when the GMs have their annual survey. Will come back to this post.

GM's aren't as brilliant as we all think. These same GM's drafted 40 other players in front of Jokic in the first place. Don't overvalue their opinions.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#313 » by CometGM » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:30 pm

Big Mac Biyombo wrote:
CometGM wrote:
ishoy123 wrote:
Yes


We'll see soon enough when the GMs have their annual survey. Will come back to this post.

GM's aren't as brilliant as we all think. These same GM's drafted 40 other players in front of Jokic in the first place. Don't overvalue their opinions.


I don't.

That said, I don't think any GM would say Jokic had a better season than Towns, or Jokic would be picked over him to start a franchise. I think anybody that really knows basketball and doesn't let fandom get in the way would think that too. It's not debatable at this point.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#314 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:53 pm

First Step wrote:How good do you think this kid will be? Does he have MVP potential? Is he just going to be an all star that can't lead his team past the 2nd round? Just how good is this kid?


I'm incredibly excited by him for reasons distinct from simply winning games.

A "pure" point center, in the sense that he can pass like this, is incredibly rare. Rare enough not simply that they are hard for a franchise to acquire, but that typically none exist at all for so long people forget they can exist. Jokic is such a player.

A lot of people tend to view passing as little more than the story of the APG stat, but the reality is that this isn't a situation where assist opportunities are simply present and the passer either completes the pass or doesn't. At least not when we're talking about the great ones. The great ones create opportunity, and do so in every way they can imagine to influence the game.

Watching Jokic is fantastic on 3 levels:

1) He has so many different throws. It's like he's been practicing all the "fundamentals" you learn in passing school, except that the things he makes look like just another tool in the arsenal basically don't exist.

2) His use of these quasi-fundamental moves makes him look like he's got old man game refined over years and years of play, but he's just a kid. This isn't him mastering a set of skills, this is him reacting to the moment and doing so with the fluidity of someone who practiced that move over and over again.

3) He galvanizes his teammates into motion. One teammates knew that if they simply cut to where they'd like to shoot the ball, Jokic would get it to them, the Nuggets became an astonishingly active team. This is such a blessing. For many top talents the size of their talent renders their teammates hesitant, and they have to actively work to coax confidence into them. To have someone like Jokic instantly jolt his teammates into enthusiasm is really cool.

Now, will he lead his team past the 2nd round? I don't know man. It's very hard to know exactly how much impact he can have with this, and whether it's enough to make up for his meh ability on the defensive end. As fans though, there's more to the game than just who is the best overall player.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#315 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:03 pm

Regarding the poll question I went with Jokic, though I think KAT has a very good chance at being easily the best of the 3.

Let's be clear though: The reason why we all tend to think KAT will be the better player is that he looks like he has the body to be your classic big...and the thing is the classic big wins with defense, where to this point KAT has seemed lost out there.

Jokic right now is likely a better offensive player than KAT will ever be, so KAT becoming the better overall player is dependent on KAT developing into a 2-way anchor, and the odds aren't looking that great of that at the moment.

Now, that last sentence about how good I see Jokic on offense probably bothered a lot of people. Do understand that that's not meant as a knock on KAT. I'm just really damn high on Jokic offensively, but I don't expect a lot of people to agree with me on that at this point.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#316 » by Johnny Firpo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:09 pm

Rashoismydad: Do you realize that Jokic is better at 22 than Dirk was at the same age, and by a significant margin? Why do you think he is only an All-Star, when every single stats and advanced metric says otherwise? His floor right now looks to be a Chris Bosh or Marc Gasol type of player. That's how objectively good he is. His ceiling is very clearly higher than what you claim.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#317 » by Alatan » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:16 pm

Although i'm not a GM, the reason i would pick Jokic to start a franchise is his ability to run a offense. You can put average talent around him and they would all score 10 ppg each. Some here think that Jokic is just a slightly better passer at the center position where in reality he runs Denver's offense. Before Jokic was in his role of Point Center Denver was 18th in the league, after him they were a top 4 offense.
He is a great rebounder both on offensive and defensive boards and he cant jump at all.
He is 6th in field goal percentage and he rarely dunks.
He is 11th in true shooting, automatic from anywhere inside the 3 point line.
His stats as starting center are:
GP: 51 mpg: 29.7 FGM/FGA: 7.8-13.4 FG%.587 3PM/3PA: 0.8-2.2 3P%: .342 FTM/FTA: 2.8-3.4 FT%: .825 ORPG: 3.1 DRPG: 7.9
RPG: 10.9 AST: 5.8 BLK: 0.8 STL: 0.9 PF: 2.9 TO:2.7 PPG: 19.2
If he hits the Gym and replaces his fat with muscle he will be a scary dude to face. If he starts to practice 3 pointers you will have a combination of Nowitzki, Nash and Gasol. If that dosen't impress you i dont know what will.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#318 » by Big Mac Biyombo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:40 pm

CometGM wrote:
Big Mac Biyombo wrote:
CometGM wrote:
We'll see soon enough when the GMs have their annual survey. Will come back to this post.

GM's aren't as brilliant as we all think. These same GM's drafted 40 other players in front of Jokic in the first place. Don't overvalue their opinions.


I don't.

That said, I don't think any GM would say Jokic had a better season than Towns, or Jokic would be picked over him to start a franchise. I think anybody that really knows basketball and doesn't let fandom get in the way would think that too. It's not debatable at this point.

You'd be surprised then. Jokic is far far far better than you think. As you can see, a lot of people disagree with you.

Saying it's not debatable is pretty asinine considering all the numbers favor Jokic. Since that clearly isn't convincing you; I'd suggest actually watching him play.

He has all the attributes that made Bill Walton and Chris Webber so incredible when they were healthy. His passing is otherworldly. He probably has the best hands in the league already and he's 22 years old. He's better than Towns defensively, (which isn't saying much) and is a great shooter too. I'm not sure where the weaknesses in his game lie. It's scary to think he's only going to get better.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#319 » by Acountant_Z » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:58 pm

CometGM wrote:
Big Mac Biyombo wrote:
CometGM wrote:
We'll see soon enough when the GMs have their annual survey. Will come back to this post.

GM's aren't as brilliant as we all think. These same GM's drafted 40 other players in front of Jokic in the first place. Don't overvalue their opinions.


I don't.

That said, I don't think any GM would say Jokic had a better season than Towns, or Jokic would be picked over him to start a franchise. I think anybody that really knows basketball and doesn't let fandom get in the way would think that too. It's not debatable at this point.


Don't be so sure. Jokic is so good it is hard to believe. Hate to repeat what has been said so many times about Denver's offense with him as a primary distributor but his influence on other players is undeniable. It is not just that he has assists it 's how they affected all other Denver players. He had 6 triple doubles, Towns will not have that in his career.
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Re: How good is Jokic? [Poll added] 

Post#320 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:33 pm

Big Mac Biyombo wrote:
CometGM wrote:
Big Mac Biyombo wrote:GM's aren't as brilliant as we all think. These same GM's drafted 40 other players in front of Jokic in the first place. Don't overvalue their opinions.


I don't.

That said, I don't think any GM would say Jokic had a better season than Towns, or Jokic would be picked over him to start a franchise. I think anybody that really knows basketball and doesn't let fandom get in the way would think that too. It's not debatable at this point.

You'd be surprised then. Jokic is far far far better than you think. As you can see, a lot of people disagree with you.

Saying it's not debatable is pretty asinine considering all the numbers favor Jokic. Since that clearly isn't convincing you; I'd suggest actually watching him play.

He has all the attributes that made Bill Walton and Chris Webber so incredible when they were healthy. His passing is otherworldly. He probably has the best hands in the league already and he's 22 years old. He's better than Towns defensively, (which isn't saying much) and is a great shooter too. I'm not sure where the weaknesses in his game lie. It's scary to think he's only going to get better.


Yeah I think people need to understand that the reason why he may seem incredibly overrated to someone is that there there's an aesthetic grace to his effect on the game that seems to announce itself as elegant optimality, and such optimaiities imply profound impact.

If you see what we're talking about and are just skeptical of its value, we're going to disagree
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