RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #32

[70sFan]

Two minor quibbles: 1) Detroit never beat LA when they were relatively healthy. No Byron Scott in '89, Lakers led (albeit by 2) when Magic pulled his hamstring in Game 2. If you go back to LA tied up, anything could've happened. Ultimately Detroit won and they deserve credit for the 2 titles.

2) Detroit never went through Boston in a title year. I know they beat a healthy Celtics team in '88. And they swept Boston in '89 - but that was without Bird.

88 should've been a title year. The Lakers won because of two things.
1. Isiah got injured.
2. The refs called the foul against Laimbeer on kareem in the final seconds, based off of reputation... even though there was literally 0 contact.

Thus, Detroit actually beat both Celtics and Lakers when all were relatively healthy... excepting Detroit was injured AND the ref made a faulty call on LA.

There was a foul on Kareem. Lambeer didn't contest skyhook in a legal way. I watched it many times and although he could have got away with that, it's not like there was "0 contact". It wasn't a faulty call.

I'd say that Dantley injury in game 7 of 1987 ECF was more critical. They were a better team during the series but they needed Adrian in last minutes. I'm sure Pistons would give more problems than Celtics in finals and with experience they could have won in 1988.

[euroleague]

Two minor quibbles: 1) Detroit never beat LA when they were relatively healthy. No Byron Scott in '89, Lakers led (albeit by 2) when Magic pulled his hamstring in Game 2. If you go back to LA tied up, anything could've happened. Ultimately Detroit won and they deserve credit for the 2 titles.

2) Detroit never went through Boston in a title year. I know they beat a healthy Celtics team in '88. And they swept Boston in '89 - but that was without Bird.

88 should've been a title year. The Lakers won because of two things.
1. Isiah got injured.
2. The refs called the foul against Laimbeer on kareem in the final seconds, based off of reputation... even though there was literally 0 contact.

Thus, Detroit actually beat both Celtics and Lakers when all were relatively healthy... excepting Detroit was injured AND the ref made a faulty call on LA.

There was a foul on Kareem. Lambeer didn't contest skyhook in a legal way. I watched it many times and although he could have got away with that, it's not like there was "0 contact". It wasn't a faulty call.

I'd say that Dantley injury in game 7 of 1987 ECF was more critical. They were a better team during the series but they needed Adrian in last minutes. I'm sure Pistons would give more problems than Celtics in finals and with experience they could have won in 1988.

Link to a video with that angle? I've seen the play many times as well, and it looks like no foul from most angles.

Pistons were a very strong matchup against the Lakers, and probably - if they won in 87 and got that monkey out of the way prior to being demonized by the whole league - could've 4peated (or at least 3peated, which they were 1 foul call away from anyways), as the bad boy act hadn't begun yet. The "bad boy" act wasn't natural for Isiah, and took a lot of energy out of the team being focused by the whole league every game. They were the first NBA villains.

[70sFan]

88 should've been a title year. The Lakers won because of two things.
1. Isiah got injured.
2. The refs called the foul against Laimbeer on kareem in the final seconds, based off of reputation... even though there was literally 0 contact.

Thus, Detroit actually beat both Celtics and Lakers when all were relatively healthy... excepting Detroit was injured AND the ref made a faulty call on LA.

There was a foul on Kareem. Lambeer didn't contest skyhook in a legal way. I watched it many times and although he could have got away with that, it's not like there was "0 contact". It wasn't a faulty call.

I'd say that Dantley injury in game 7 of 1987 ECF was more critical. They were a better team during the series but they needed Adrian in last minutes. I'm sure Pistons would give more problems than Celtics in finals and with experience they could have won in 1988.

Link to a video with that angle? I've seen the play many times as well, and it looks like no foul from most angles.

Pistons were a very strong matchup against the Lakers, and probably - if they won in 87 and got that monkey out of the way prior to being demonized by the whole league - could've 4peated, as the bad boy act hadn't begun yet. The "bad boy" act wasn't natural for Isiah, and took a lot of energy out of the team being focused by the whole league every game. They were the first NBA villains.

Watch on YouTube

Bill jumped into Kareem during shooting motion. I know Kareem was defended like that for his whole career and many times refs didn't call fouls but technically it is a foul.

I don't think Pistons would have won against Lakers in 1987. 1987 Lakers were much better than 1988 and Pistons relied heavily on Dantley in 1987 season. Unless Dantley (or Isiah) would destroy them, they wouldn't have won. Thomas wasn't reliable enough to beat the Lakers by himself and Dantley wasn't at his peak anymore and he would probably score his usual 20-24 ppg on outstanding efficiency. The rest of the team got stronger in next year.

[pandrade83]

Two minor quibbles: 1) Detroit never beat LA when they were relatively healthy. No Byron Scott in '89, Lakers led (albeit by 2) when Magic pulled his hamstring in Game 2. If you go back to LA tied up, anything could've happened. Ultimately Detroit won and they deserve credit for the 2 titles.

2) Detroit never went through Boston in a title year. I know they beat a healthy Celtics team in '88. And they swept Boston in '89 - but that was without Bird.

88 should've been a title year. The Lakers won because of two things.
1. Isiah got injured.
2. The refs called the foul against Laimbeer on kareem in the final seconds, based off of reputation... even though there was literally 0 contact.

Thus, Detroit actually beat both Celtics and Lakers when all were relatively healthy... excepting Detroit was injured AND the ref made a faulty call on LA.

1) Others have already posted the video so I don't need to but yes, there was contact. Was it a questionable call? Yes.
2) Hypothetically beating teams just because you thought they deserved too, doesn't actually count as beating them.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #44:

Baylor - 6
Payton - 3
Drexler -2
Cousy - 2
Frazier - 1
Kidd - 1


I won't be available to do the final tally in ~6-8 hours. It's on you, pen

[euroleague]

Watch on YouTube

I don't see the foul. He wasn't touching... That's the angle everyone watches it at....

@pandrade83
It doesn't "officially" count.

The Pistons won 2 and the stats I posted are irrefutable. They are a refs sketchy call away from a 3peat. Call it what you will. The case for Isiah is pretty obvious.

[70sFan]

Watch on YouTube

I don't see the foul. He wasn't touching... That's the angle everyone watches it at....

Lambeer created a contact during the shooting motion. Kareem didn't run into Bill in that situation, it's Lambeer who jumped into Kareem's body during skyhook. You can live with that if refs didn't call a foul, but it wasn’t a flop or anything like that. It was a physical contest and he jumped into Kareem. Even announcers weren't really suprised and they agreed with refs.

Edit: Also, Dantley was their FMVP, not Isiah. He really tortured Lakers on offense while Isiah wasn't that great (even despite outstanding game 6).

[penbeast0]

Okay, enough, Isiah's case is far too strong to rely on one referee call. This point has been made, if you wish to make another, please do. Isiah is one of those players where I can be persuaded that he is the next best PG but am not persuaded yet (I have Payton and Frazier over him, and am willing to listen to arguments for Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, and Kevin or Dennis Johnson).

[pandrade83]

Watch on YouTube

I don't see the foul. He wasn't touching... That's the angle everyone watches it at....

@pandrade83
It doesn't "officially" count.

The Pistons won 2 and the stats I posted are irrefutable. They are a refs sketchy call away from a 3peat. Call it what you will. The case for Isiah is pretty obvious.

This isn't a post about Isiah but more-so about process/facts.

You can call it a sketchy call - fine. But when you say things that are just factually not true (and it happens to ALL of us - we're only human) and then try to respond with a hypothetical/what you think should have happened to support the false statement, you're under-mining the player whose case you're supporting. I think Isiah's a great player and unless some really strange things happen, I'll be supporting him in the early 40's. But you don't need to try and prop him up by arguing he really had 3 titles or however many you think he should have had.

[penbeast0]

Baylor - 6
Payton - 3
Drexler -2
Cousy - 2
Frazier - 1
Kidd - 1


OKAY, here's the final using the votes Trex tallied earlier today (no new ones posted):

The Kidd vote (Trex) becomes a vote for Elgin Baylor.
The Frazier vote (Clyde Frazier) becomes a vote for Drexler.
(note that both the first votes eliminated belong to mods; so much for PC Board group think.

With Drexler now having 3 votes, Cousy is eliminated and his two votes go to Baylor which gives Elgin Baylor 9 out of the 15 voters.

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[/quote]

[euroleague]

Okay, enough, Isiah's case is far too strong to rely on one referee call. This point has been made, if you wish to make another, please do. Isiah is one of those players where I can be persuaded that he is the next best PG but am not persuaded yet (I have Payton and Frazier over him, and am willing to listen to arguments for Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, and Kevin or Dennis Johnson).

@pandrade83

Yes, the ref call isn't actually important. I'm not debating the ref call. I'm simply pointing out the consequences if it went the other way. The ref call is a topic for another thread.