Political Roundtable Part XV

[closg00]

You have to give Gen Kelly credit for cleaning-out the Nazis sympathizers, good-riddance Gorka.


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[dckingsfan]

Since we are talking about hypocrisy and politics - don't forget about the progressives, unions and non-sustainable government.

Add that to the social conservative hypocrisy and you can see the mess we are in...

[Wizardspride]

I agree that CNN is becoming increasingly more left-leaning. Not totally sure what's driving it, but it seems to be spurred in part by Trump's madness and the inability of some CNN to control/hide their dislike of #45.

But there's no comparison between the bias of CNN and that of Fox News. Fox's prime time broadcast features the blatantly biased Sean Hannity. Hannity doesn't pretend to be anything other than a hardcore conservative who has no room for anything other than right-wing opinions and guests on his show. (While Anderson Cooper and Don Lemon may have their left-leaning bias they don't come close to touching the right-wing extremist Hannity.) Hannity is preceded on the air by Tucker Carlson, who is Hannity-lite when it comes to an outright display of right-wing bias.

The only regular on Fox who shows some degree of objectivity, imo, is Shepard Smith.

Another big difference between CNN and Fox is that CNN, especially the Wolf Blitzer Show, will at least give substantial and equal airtime (on an almost daily) to interviews of either a Democratic or Republican members of Congress. You rarely see that on Fox. (Although it could be that Democratic senators and members of the House may decline to appear on Fox.)

CNN isn't left leaning... they rarely feature leftists on their shows. Their guests range from Clinton Dems in the center, to mainstream GOP voices in the center right and the extreme right wing voices on the Hill and elsewhere.

They don't even do reporting on poverty in America. Hell, they don't do any reporting outside of DC palace intrigue. Same with MSNBC which is now hiring Republicans left and right.

You lost me at CNN isnt left leaning... please define left for those who see CNN as left and Fox as the right. Don Lemon and Anderson Cooper dont even pretend to respect trump and I get it because they represent the left.

Assuming Lemon and Cooper are left, what makes you think they don't respect Trump simply because he's a republican?

You think they would act similiarly towards a Kasich, Bush (Jeb) etc etc?

Perhaps it's the fact that they perceive the current president as a liar and just an all around bad dude.

That's a possibility as well....

[dckingsfan]

Perhaps it's the fact that they perceive the current president as a liar and just an all around bad dude.

That's a possibility as well....

It's a solid point and more than a possibility - he is turning out to be worse than a "bad dude" - leaning toward solid evil.

[Kanyewest]

How can anyone watch CNN or Foxs news!?!?! Both of these "news" channels are essentially mouth pieces for the Left or Right...neither are objective... its almost impossible to find out what the hell actually happen today from watching the news...which is sad. You almost gotta watch both...figure out what they both agree on and then form an opinion based on the overlapping data. honestly the FAKE NEWS is causing people to split into two ignorant and intolerant tribes!

I agree that CNN is becoming increasingly more left-leaning. Not totally sure what's driving it, but it seems to be spurred in part by Trump's madness and the inability of some CNN to control/hide their dislike of #45.

Ratings.

Look at the top program on TV right now - it's Rachel Maddow.

CNN is super cynical and totally in it for the $$$$$

CNN still invites the Trump speaking heads though and probably would go even more left given how well MSNBC is doing.

[verbal8]

One thing that will make many news outlets seem anti-Trump is that he says things that are often objectively false.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[CobraCommander]

CNN isn't left leaning... they rarely feature leftists on their shows. Their guests range from Clinton Dems in the center, to mainstream GOP voices in the center right and the extreme right wing voices on the Hill and elsewhere.

They don't even do reporting on poverty in America. Hell, they don't do any reporting outside of DC palace intrigue. Same with MSNBC which is now hiring Republicans left and right.

You lost me at CNN isnt left leaning... please define left for those who see CNN as left and Fox as the right. Don Lemon and Anderson Cooper dont even pretend to respect trump and I get it because they represent the left.

Assuming Lemon and Cooper are left, what makes you think they don't respect Trump simply because he's a republican?

You think they would act similiarly towards a Kasich, Bush (Jeb) etc etc?

Perhaps it's the fact that they perceive the current president as a liar and just an all around bad dude.

That's a possibility as well....

I agree and Well one thing for sure is Lemon and Cooper both represent the LBGTQ community...and...trump has gone after both of them and thier community directly and they have responded directly as well...see below
http://www.newsweek.com/watch-cnns-don-lemon-says-trump-unhinged-petty-and-lied-directly-american-653831

http://www.newsweek.com/watch-eye-roll-king-anderson-cooper-rips-lying-trumps-phoenix-rally-speech-654396

So the things that CNN sees as Lies Fox sees as good moves...or the invoke the ole...Well Bush and Obama did the same or said the same thing...as if that makes it right

[payitforward]

I don't see "left" or "right" as particularly relevant w/respect to Donald Trump. He's a demagogue not a conservative.

In fact, it looks to me like actively supporting Trump is a good indicator that a person *isn't* a conservative -- at least not in any traditional sense. Trump's so-called "base" certainly doesn't consist of conservatives.

Nothing could indicate that fact more clearly than the presence of neo-Nazis in that base. National Socialism wasn't a conservative movement. & like the original Nazis, the current gang is looking for radical change, nothing short of revolution really.

As to "respect," there is certainly no reason whatever to respect Donald Trump. You don't give a habitual, even pathological liar any respect.

There's plenty of reason to fear him, however. Plenty of reason to dread the effect of his utterly dystopian vision of the world.

[payitforward]

You lost me at CNN isnt left leaning... please define left for those who see CNN as left and Fox as the right. Don Lemon and Anderson Cooper dont even pretend to respect trump and I get it because they represent the left.

Assuming Lemon and Cooper are left, what makes you think they don't respect Trump simply because he's a republican?

You think they would act similiarly towards a Kasich, Bush (Jeb) etc etc?

Perhaps it's the fact that they perceive the current president as a liar and just an all around bad dude.

That's a possibility as well....

I agree and Well one thing for sure is Lemon and Cooper both represent the LBGTQ community...and...trump has gone after both of them and thier community directly and they have responded directly as well...see below
http://www.newsweek.com/watch-cnns-don-lemon-says-trump-unhinged-petty-and-lied-directly-american-653831

http://www.newsweek.com/watch-eye-roll-king-anderson-cooper-rips-lying-trumps-phoenix-rally-speech-654396

So the things that CNN sees as Lies Fox sees as good moves...or the invoke the ole...Well Bush and Obama did the same or said the same thing...as if that makes it right

Cobra -- can you explain the phrase "the things that CNN sees as Lies" please? When Trump says the cameras are going off, but in fact the cameras are staying on, is that one of those "things that CNN sees as Lies," or is just a lie? It's the latter, isn't it? It's just a straight out lie.

So... how do "left" & "right" come into this at all?

[payitforward]

...Well one thing for sure is Lemon and Cooper both represent the LBGTQ community....

Cobra, could you please explain what you mean by this claim? Thanks.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[cammac]

Assuming Lemon and Cooper are left, what makes you think they don't respect Trump simply because he's a republican?

You think they would act similiarly towards a Kasich, Bush (Jeb) etc etc?

Perhaps it's the fact that they perceive the current president as a liar and just an all around bad dude.

That's a possibility as well....

I agree and Well one thing for sure is Lemon and Cooper both represent the LBGTQ community...and...trump has gone after both of them and thier community directly and they have responded directly as well...see below
http://www.newsweek.com/watch-cnns-don-lemon-says-trump-unhinged-petty-and-lied-directly-american-653831

http://www.newsweek.com/watch-eye-roll-king-anderson-cooper-rips-lying-trumps-phoenix-rally-speech-654396

So the things that CNN sees as Lies Fox sees as good moves...or the invoke the ole...Well Bush and Obama did the same or said the same thing...as if that makes it right

Cobra -- can you explain the phrase "the things that CNN sees as Lies" please? When Trump says the cameras are going off, but in fact the cameras are staying on, is that one of those "things that CNN sees as Lies," or is just a lie? It's the latter, isn't it? It's just a straight out lie.

So... how do "left" & "right" come into this at all?

Every politician lies from time to time! Some of those lies are innocent and some are calculated but for the most part are infrequent. Trump on the other hand averages about 4 boldface lies everyday and even when those lies are exposed uses the lie again. ( 50 pigs blood bullets ) Then you can go to gross exaggeration which aren't lies but stretch credibility when he compares himself to Lincoln.

On CNN yes they likely have at least a moderate bias but they have numerous representatives of both moderate and right wing Republicans. This includes some very annoying talking heads who interrupt conversations and never contribute meaningfully. Yes Don Lemon hates almost everything Trump represents but then 65% of Americans agree and disagrees with his racial policy. Comparing CNN to Fox is night and day since Fox is completely monolithic in its undying support for Trump.

[Zonkerbl]

I think it's the duty of any serious news organization to strenuously oppose any fascist attempt to shut down the 4th estate and replace it with the propaganda mouthpiece of a handful of billionaires (Breitbart). All people who read Breitbart and cheer Trump when he attacks the free press are traitors and enemies of Democracy. CNN is a dumpster fire of a news organization but I don't think there's anything wrong with them speaking out against Trump. He represents everything evil lurking in the twisted soul of this nation.

[E550wahoo]

Yes, that's why I said we ALL need to look in the mirror.

I'm not sure I understand your comment. How does looking in a mirror affect our reaction to a scientific finding (that there is only one race, not multiple races)? I may be missing your point though so please explain.

Also, when a citizen fills out govt. or university questionnaires asking for race classification the only accurate answer in my mind would be "other". Wouldn't it be dishonest to answer in any other way assuming one understands the science?

Not sure what you want me to explain. It's a figure of speech. I'm agreeing with you but I don't think the concept of race will ever be expunged.

I agree there's only the one human race, based on the following genetic fact:

How much genetic variation is there among humans?

Perhaps the most widely cited statistic about human genetic diversity is that any two humans differ, on average, at about 1 in 1,000 DNA base pairs (0.1%). Human genetic diversity is substantially lower than that of many other species, including our nearest evolutionary relative, the chimpanzee.

Genetic Variation and Human Evolution - The American Society of ...
https://www.ashg.org/education/pdf/geneticvariation.pdf

So if the human race is a single species based on a 0.1% genetic variance, then it would probably be more accurate to classify the different skin colors as different sub-species, right? Whites are a sub-species, blacks are a sub-species, etc. Of course there's an infinite variation of skin color, so does that make each variation a separate sub-species? Who knows? In the end, we're all children of God (IMO), one (human) race, or species, with an infinitely variegated sub-species.

[Zonkerbl]

On the one hand, I want to argue with Popper. Because we were dumb enough to believe in different races before, people with certain physical attributes - skin color - were discriminated against.

On the other hand, the Republicans have used the whole idea of affirmative action and used it to put all democratic voters in overwhelmingly democratic districts, weakening the democratic vote to the point that it is expected that Dems will win 54% of the house *vote* and yet win only 47% of the seats in the 2018 house elections.

Maybe we'd all be better off if we were like "oh yeah, racism doesn't exist because it's scientifically proven there's no races, we win! Stop trying to end racism! It's over!" because when we try to do something about racism it ends up biting us in the butt.

[dckingsfan]

I think it's the duty of any serious news organization to strenuously oppose any fascist attempt to shut down the 4th estate and replace it with the propaganda mouthpiece of a handful of billionaires (Breitbart). All people who read Breitbart and cheer Trump when he attacks the free press are traitors and enemies of Democracy. CNN is a dumpster fire of a news organization but I don't think there's anything wrong with them speaking out against Trump. He represents everything evil lurking in the twisted soul of this nation.

And I think they could do this by representing multiple sides to "arguments".

Example: Bailing out of NAFTA
- Why it has helped
- Why and who it has hurt
- Who are the pro-NAFTA forces and why

Detailed, meaningful dialog will hopefully kill the propaganda - over time...

[popper]

On the one hand, I want to argue with Popper. Because we were dumb enough to believe in different races before, people with certain physical attributes - skin color - were discriminated against.

On the other hand, the Republicans have used the whole idea of affirmative action and used it to put all democratic voters in overwhelmingly democratic districts, weakening the democratic vote to the point that it is expected that Dems will win 54% of the house *vote* and yet win only 47% of the seats in the 2018 house elections.

Maybe we'd all be better off if we were like "oh yeah, racism doesn't exist because it's scientifically proven there's no races, we win! Stop trying to end racism! It's over!" because when we try to do something about racism it ends up biting us in the butt.

I don't have much of a formal education, and so I'm asking those better equipped to address the issue;

Shouldn't our elected leaders and educators inform the public that;

1. There is only one race, the human race.
2. Therefore racism is an inaccurate description of something different
3. What in the past we labeled racism is actually discrimination, or a general attitude of superiority, based on a difference in physical appearance.

Of course discrimination applies to other things besides physical appearance (cultural, religious, etc.) but racism is the subject at hand.

Once the language is cleaned up, and the science widely disseminated to the masses, perhaps there will be another more effective way of addressing discrimination based on physical appearance.

[Zonkerbl]

On the one hand, I want to argue with Popper. Because we were dumb enough to believe in different races before, people with certain physical attributes - skin color - were discriminated against.

On the other hand, the Republicans have used the whole idea of affirmative action and used it to put all democratic voters in overwhelmingly democratic districts, weakening the democratic vote to the point that it is expected that Dems will win 54% of the house *vote* and yet win only 47% of the seats in the 2018 house elections.

Maybe we'd all be better off if we were like "oh yeah, racism doesn't exist because it's scientifically proven there's no races, we win! Stop trying to end racism! It's over!" because when we try to do something about racism it ends up biting us in the butt.

I don't have much of a formal education, and so I'm asking those better equipped to address the issue;

Shouldn't our elected leaders and educators inform the public that;

1. There is only one race, the human race.
2. Therefore racism is an inaccurate description of something different
3. What in the past we labeled racism is actually discrimination, or a general attitude of superiority, based on a difference in physical appearance.

Of course discrimination applies to other things besides physical appearance (cultural, religious, etc.) but racism is the subject at hand.

Once the language is cleaned up, and the science widely disseminated to the masses, perhaps there will be another more effective way of addressing discrimination based on physical appearance.

Well, it would be nice if discovering something to be untrue immediately made the problem disappear, but it doesn't.

I understand what you're saying - at one point, it was a widely accepted practice to use leeches to suck bad spirits out of people. Then science discovered that this was all a bunch of hooey, and when the evidence was shared amongst medical practitioners they were all convinced by it and corrected their behavior.

I think we have a qualitatively different problem here. "Leechism" was taught to grown up medical students in college. Once the medical teachers in the college were convinced by the evidence to change the curriculum, making the change in practices in the profession was pretty straightforward. "Racism" is taught from childhood by friends and parents and schools and television/mass media. These are not professional teachers whose behavior is easily changed by presenting scientific evidence.

Also, racism is built deeply into our institutional structure. The whole criminal justice system consists of citizens who report crimes, police who catch criminals, juries who decide the fate of criminals, judges who decide the sentences of convicted criminals, parole boards who decide who is safe to return to society, businesses who choose whether to hire convicted felons, etc. etc. etc. It's not just a small subset of people who are holding mistaken beliefs that need to be retrained - it's *everybody*, including white liberal people like me who think they are the good guys.

I mean, I get it. I went and spent some time in Ohio recently, I grew up there, these people believe they are good people. Red blooded Americans who love their country. The good guys. "How dare you call me racist?" You know? "I'm not one of those people lynching and beating and tattooing swastikas on myself and whatnot. I'm not a racist - maybe I'm part of a system that systematically *discriminates* against people, but I'm not a *racist.*" And there's a movement to try to make a distinction between evil racists and good people who unknowingly aid and abet an institutionally racist system.

And if you were to show your scientific evidence to the people I grew up with in Ohio, I'm sure you'd find no resistance to it whatsoever. "Oh of course, we already knew all that stuff."

The reason why institutional racism exists is because individually, we are all just a tiny bit racist. If you agree with statement "oh, I don't beat up black people, on the contrary - I'm scared of black people! That's why I own a handgun!" you're a little bit racist. Admit it - you do. If you're white, you do. And it's just enough racism to perpetuate the system that is directly responsible for keeping African Americans and other minorities from "catching up" in terms of income with the rest of the country. Being afraid of black people has nothing to do with scientific evidence, it has to do with everything we've learned from what people have told us all our lives. And hey - I live in Anacostia now. It's not like high levels of crime in certain traditionally African American neighborhoods doesn't exist. But we have a very biased view of it - we take a small, statistically significant difference in crime rates and have turned it into a huge industrial complex that manufactures systematic oppression of black people. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.

[montestewart]

I'm not sure I understand your comment. How does looking in a mirror affect our reaction to a scientific finding (that there is only one race, not multiple races)? I may be missing your point though so please explain.

Also, when a citizen fills out govt. or university questionnaires asking for race classification the only accurate answer in my mind would be "other". Wouldn't it be dishonest to answer in any other way assuming one understands the science?

Not sure what you want me to explain. It's a figure of speech. I'm agreeing with you but I don't think the concept of race will ever be expunged.

I agree there's only the one human race, based on the following genetic fact:

How much genetic variation is there among humans?

Perhaps the most widely cited statistic about human genetic diversity is that any two humans differ, on average, at about 1 in 1,000 DNA base pairs (0.1%). Human genetic diversity is substantially lower than that of many other species, including our nearest evolutionary relative, the chimpanzee.

Genetic Variation and Human Evolution - The American Society of ...
https://www.ashg.org/education/pdf/geneticvariation.pdf

So if the human race is a single species based on a 0.1% genetic variance, then it would probably be more accurate to classify the different skin colors as different sub-species, right? Whites are a sub-species, blacks are a sub-species, etc. Of course there's an infinite variation of skin color, so does that make each variation a separate sub-species? Who knows? In the end, we're all children of God (IMO), one (human) race, or species, with an infinitely variegated sub-species.

Great first post E550wahoo! Welcome, and please post more if time permits!