Political Roundtable Part XV

[gtn130]

Think about this statement - you have an "and" clause.

So, those that fly confederate flags - most likely.

Those that don't want to pull down monuments - not so much.

Those that want to do both - yes. But you just narrowed your group by a large factor.

Missed this one.

I think both in isolation are indicators that they at a minimum sympathize with racists. Defending confederate monuments means actually defending them in some capacity. I think someone who would go to that effort would invariably be racist, yeah.

Also "and" isn't a clause, it's a conjunction.

This is a supposition on your part. I don't think it is as universal as you might think. I would like to see the link where those that don't want to take down monuments are racist. I think that there are many who are racist but not all.

I am guessing from previous posts that Monte is far from racist. And yet he isn't for immediately tearing down all confederate monuments. But you would label him racist.

I think you are missing the nuance to his argument. And you blew by a really good idea because of that...

Dude, I'm not labeling him a racist at all lol. I'm stating very clearly that I think his strategy is bad.

[montestewart]

Missed this one.

I think both in isolation are indicators that they at a minimum sympathize with racists. Defending confederate monuments means actually defending them in some capacity. I think someone who would go to that effort would invariably be racist, yeah.

Also "and" isn't a clause, it's a conjunction.

This is a supposition on your part. I don't think it is as universal as you might think. I would like to see the link where those that don't want to take down monuments are racist. I think that there are many who are racist but not all.

I am guessing from previous posts that Monte is far from racist. And yet he isn't for immediately tearing down all confederate monuments. But you would label him racist.

I think you are missing the nuance to his argument. And you blew by a really good idea because of that...

Dude, I'm not labeling him a racist at all lol. I'm stating very clearly that I think his strategy is bad.

Not trying to confuse things, but if it helps clarify anything, I'm not against tearing down all confederate monuments. And I didn't think you were labeling me a racist (I employed a little hyperbole, sue me), but were questioning the effectiveness of my approach.

Some will argue for the elimination of all Confederate memorials at once, while others will work to remove them one statue at a time. Either role plays a part in the progression. Don't take anything I say as necessarily arguing against your position (as Zards notes above, progress often begins with a minority view), because I'm not really. My approach is just a bit different, but unlike some of these statues, it's not etched in stone.

[payitforward]

Like, Nate, a mod on this forum, has advocated for a white ethnostate and has shared propaganda about black people being genetically inferior, yet most folks here choose to interpret his posts as ~something else~ and try to reason with him as if his views are totally benign and somehow not set in stone.

There's a pattern here, and Monte's post crystallizes that pattern almost perfectly. Why is Nate still a mod and respected basketball poster? Because y'all offer him an olive branch for *reasons* that are beyond my comprehension.

I disagree with nate pretty much down the line on political & social subjects as discussed in this thread, & I've been pretty vocal in my disagreements. In fact, it'd be fair to say that I've put more effort in debunking his positions than was worth doing, as nate is thoroughly convinced of his positions.

But I'm not aware of him advocating for "a white ethnostate." I don't think that's true.

As well, I don't think he's said black people are "genetically inferior;" he has certainly claimed that black people are less intelligent than white people -- a silly idea, to be sure, but it's not the same as claiming black people are "inferior" in a generalized sense.

As to his participating in the Wizards forum or even being a mod, I haven't had any problem with how he interacts within this community. I haven't found his posts to have a demeaning tone. Obviously, lots of folks who post here are black. If he treated anyone in a way that was unpleasant or demeaning, that would be something to hold against him. But I haven't seen anything at all like that.

edit: I would add that I'm with Justice Brandeis who wrote that "sunlight is the best disinfectant."

[gtn130]

As well, I don't think he's said black people are "genetically inferior;" he has certainly claimed that black people are less intelligent than white people -- a silly idea, to be sure, but it's not the same as claiming black people are "inferior" in a generalized sense.

I remember he specifically shared this article. The 'funny' thing about that article is the writer had to follow up with an apology because he accidentally used source material from white nationalists lol.

Not gonna bother looking up old posts, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't his first or last foray into the topic of race and intelligence.

[dckingsfan]

I posted this earlier - but isn't this more obfuscation?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nyc-mayor-bill-de-blasio-may-take-down-christopher-columbus-statue/

[dckingsfan]

BTW, moved to Houston just in time for Harvey - it is amazing the amount of "fake news". Fake sharks, alligators, Obama giving out food and BLM blocking aid.

Fake


Fake

[nate33]

Being in the minority is not necessarily a bad thing. MLK and others who advocated for civil rights were in the minority at one time as well...and I'm sure much of the polling from the mid-1950s through the early '60s would reflect that.

True. But it took decades of convincing the public of his cause before laws were enacted. And thanks to the moral groundwork laid out by the civil rights protesters, when the laws were actually enacted legislatively, the laws stuck. That's the way it's supposed to work. If a small minority enacts rapid changes in law against the wishes of a significant majority, you have tyranny. It's not a good thing.

I think there are sound arguments for the removal of confederate statues. I've even indicated that I would be open to the removal of some of them right now. But there is room for debate and we have plenty of time to make our arguments and try to convince people. That's what supposed to happen in a democracy. gtn's authoritarian approach will cause a heck of a lot more racial animosity, riots and violence than doing nothing at all.

[nate33]

As well, I don't think he's said black people are "genetically inferior;" he has certainly claimed that black people are less intelligent than white people -- a silly idea, to be sure, but it's not the same as claiming black people are "inferior" in a generalized sense.

I remember he specifically shared this article. The 'funny' thing about that article is the writer had to follow up with an apology because he accidentally used source material from white nationalists lol.

Not gonna bother looking up old posts, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't his first or last foray into the topic of race and intelligence.

LOL. Saletan didn't retract his article or state it was inaccurate. He merely said that he failed to highlight that one of his sources was Philippe Rushton. Rushton does believe that there are differences in races, but that doesn't make his research invalid.

[cammac]

I posted this earlier - but isn't this more obfuscation?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nyc-mayor-bill-de-blasio-may-take-down-christopher-columbus-statue/

The reality is that many famous people should be framed as people of there time and not today's politically correct society. That doesn't mean those famous persons inadequacies should not be exposed. The other factor is the old adage in that the winner writes the history. But also the reason a statue is erected also puts that its survival into context many of the Confederate Statues were done in the Jim Crow era as symbol to suppress African Americans.

This debate has come into Canada with some First Nations people wanting a name of a university changed and statues of John McDonald our 1st Prime Minister removed. Yet at the same time First Nations people are not after removing similar monuments to Chief Joseph Brant who was the largest slave owner in Upper Canada when John Simcoe abolished slavery in 1792. ( I believe that First Nations people have legitimate grievances that need to addressed. )

As others have mentioned larger problems need to addressed such as Republican attempts to reduce the ability of minorities to vote in elections.

[Zonkerbl]

"The winner writes history." So if the confederate statues stay up, does that mean the South actually won?

[cammac]

"The winner writes history." So if the confederate statues stay up, does that mean the South actually won?

In the Jim Crow days they certainly were the winners.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[DCZards]

"The winner writes history." So if the confederate statues stay up, does that mean the South actually won?

In the Jim Crow days they certainly were the winners.

The confederates may have thought they were winning during Jim Crow. But you can't win by being a racist and a separatist. At the end of the day all they were doing was giving African Americans and their allies the motivation and the solidarity they needed to overcome.

...and that's my Sunday morning sermon.

[dckingsfan]

I'm tired, I'm sore and the smell of mold seems permanently seared into my nostrils. But mostly I'm sad.

Rows and rows of houses with sheet rock, insulation, furniture, flooring and pictures line the streets blocking the sidewalks.

I am staying at a B&B and the owner is an avid runner. She is a node - she knows everyone and is an organizer. At breakfast she assigns different runners (their club is ~ 100) to various houses. I eat breakfast and then head out.

Today's house had their watermark at 4 feet. You identify streets by their watermark. Our group of 10 goes in and pulls sheet rock and insulation out to 4 feet. The smell is more difficult to sustain than the work. We finished the first house in under 3 hours.

I am sent down to talk to a man down the street (I don't know why I am selected - I guess I am older) to see if he needs help. His wife has PLS (like ALS) and this is his third water event. They group is worried he won't take help. I ask how it is going - I didn't know how to read the blank stare. Thirty seconds of silence - I ask him if he would like some help. He nods and maybe a tear or two, the group descends on his house.

I stay with him we talk about strategies of where to put what he has saved. We decide to box everything (yep, we brought lots of boxes) and stage them in the garage. The remaining seven begin the process of pulling out the destroyed furniture, ripping out the dry wall and bring anything that is salvaged on the driveway. I moved everything out of the garage then swept the floors. He has a fish tank that has filled with water. He laughed. And he laughed again when he told me that the flooring I was throwing away for him had a life-time guarantee. He tells me stories, asks where I am from, tells me about other water events while we are doing the cleaning - it seems to distract him.

A pair of kids show up outside the house. They ask if we would like some food and water. They give us sack lunches and water bottles. I tell the kid to thank his parents for their generosity. His brother was clearly insulted - "my brother bought the bread, peanut butter, jelly and all the water bottles with his own money." The man I was helping saves me, "then you are truly Texans, don’t worry - he isn't from here". A smile sweeps their faces.

[montestewart]

I'm tired, I'm sore and the smell of mold seems permanently seared into my nostrils. But mostly I'm sad.

Rows and rows of houses with sheet rock, insulation, furniture, flooring and pictures line the streets blocking the sidewalks.

I am staying at a B&B and the owner is an avid runner. She is a node - she knows everyone and is an organizer. At breakfast she assigns different runners (their club is ~ 100) to various houses. I eat breakfast and then head out.

Today's house had their watermark at 4 feet. You identify streets by their watermark. Our group of 10 goes in and pulls sheet rock and insulation out to 4 feet. The smell is more difficult to sustain than the work. We finished the first house in under 3 hours.

I am sent down to talk to a man down the street (I don't know why I am selected - I guess I am older) to see if he needs help. His wife has PLS (like ALS) and this is his third water event. They group is worried he won't take help. I ask how it is going - I didn't know how to read the blank stare. Thirty seconds of silence - I ask him if he would like some help. He nods and maybe a tear or two, the group descends on his house.

I stay with him we talk about strategies of where to put what he has saved. We decide to box everything (yep, we brought lots of boxes) and stage them in the garage. The remaining seven begin the process of pulling out the destroyed furniture, ripping out the dry wall and bring anything that is salvaged on the driveway. I moved everything out of the garage then swept the floors. He has a fish tank that has filled with water. He laughed. And he laughed again when he told me that the flooring I was throwing away for him had a life-time guarantee. He tells me stories, asks where I am from, tells me about other water events while we are doing the cleaning - it seems to distract him.

A pair of kids show up outside the house. They ask if we would like some food and water. They give us sack lunches and water bottles. I tell the kid to thank his parents for their generosity. His brother was clearly insulted - "my brother bought the bread, peanut butter, jelly and all the water bottles with his own money." The man I was helping saves me, "then you are truly Texans, don’t worry - he isn't from here". A smile sweeps their faces.

You're a good man. Thanks to you and your crew. And those kids.

[DCZards]

I'm tired, I'm sore and the smell of mold seems permanently seared into my nostrils. But mostly I'm sad.

Rows and rows of houses with sheet rock, insulation, furniture, flooring and pictures line the streets blocking the sidewalks.

I am staying at a B&B and the owner is an avid runner. She is a node - she knows everyone and is an organizer. At breakfast she assigns different runners (their club is ~ 100) to various houses. I eat breakfast and then head out.

Today's house had their watermark at 4 feet. You identify streets by their watermark. Our group of 10 goes in and pulls sheet rock and insulation out to 4 feet. The smell is more difficult to sustain than the work. We finished the first house in under 3 hours.

I am sent down to talk to a man down the street (I don't know why I am selected - I guess I am older) to see if he needs help. His wife has PLS (like ALS) and this is his third water event. They group is worried he won't take help. I ask how it is going - I didn't know how to read the blank stare. Thirty seconds of silence - I ask him if he would like some help. He nods and maybe a tear or two, the group descends on his house.

I stay with him we talk about strategies of where to put what he has saved. We decide to box everything (yep, we brought lots of boxes) and stage them in the garage. The remaining seven begin the process of pulling out the destroyed furniture, ripping out the dry wall and bring anything that is salvaged on the driveway. I moved everything out of the garage then swept the floors. He has a fish tank that has filled with water. He laughed. And he laughed again when he told me that the flooring I was throwing away for him had a life-time guarantee. He tells me stories, asks where I am from, tells me about other water events while we are doing the cleaning - it seems to distract him.

A pair of kids show up outside the house. They ask if we would like some food and water. They give us sack lunches and water bottles. I tell the kid to thank his parents for their generosity. His brother was clearly insulted - "my brother bought the bread, peanut butter, jelly and all the water bottles with his own money." The man I was helping saves me, "then you are truly Texans, don’t worry - he isn't from here". A smile sweeps their faces.

Well done, dckingsfan, well done.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

I'm tired, I'm sore and the smell of mold seems permanently seared into my nostrils. But mostly I'm sad.

Rows and rows of houses with sheet rock, insulation, furniture, flooring and pictures line the streets blocking the sidewalks.

I am staying at a B&B and the owner is an avid runner. She is a node - she knows everyone and is an organizer. At breakfast she assigns different runners (their club is ~ 100) to various houses. I eat breakfast and then head out.

Today's house had their watermark at 4 feet. You identify streets by their watermark. Our group of 10 goes in and pulls sheet rock and insulation out to 4 feet. The smell is more difficult to sustain than the work. We finished the first house in under 3 hours.

I am sent down to talk to a man down the street (I don't know why I am selected - I guess I am older) to see if he needs help. His wife has PLS (like ALS) and this is his third water event. They group is worried he won't take help. I ask how it is going - I didn't know how to read the blank stare. Thirty seconds of silence - I ask him if he would like some help. He nods and maybe a tear or two, the group descends on his house.

I stay with him we talk about strategies of where to put what he has saved. We decide to box everything (yep, we brought lots of boxes) and stage them in the garage. The remaining seven begin the process of pulling out the destroyed furniture, ripping out the dry wall and bring anything that is salvaged on the driveway. I moved everything out of the garage then swept the floors. He has a fish tank that has filled with water. He laughed. And he laughed again when he told me that the flooring I was throwing away for him had a life-time guarantee. He tells me stories, asks where I am from, tells me about other water events while we are doing the cleaning - it seems to distract him.

A pair of kids show up outside the house. They ask if we would like some food and water. They give us sack lunches and water bottles. I tell the kid to thank his parents for their generosity. His brother was clearly insulted - "my brother bought the bread, peanut butter, jelly and all the water bottles with his own money." The man I was helping saves me, "then you are truly Texans, don’t worry - he isn't from here". A smile sweeps their faces.

Godspeed Brother DCKingsfan.

Thank you!

[Pointgod]

Think about this statement - you have an "and" clause.

So, those that fly confederate flags - most likely.

Those that don't want to pull down monuments - not so much.

Those that want to do both - yes. But you just narrowed your group by a large factor.

Missed this one.

I think both in isolation are indicators that they at a minimum sympathize with racists. Defending confederate monuments means actually defending them in some capacity. I think someone who would go to that effort would invariably be racist, yeah.

Also "and" isn't a clause, it's a conjunction.

This is a supposition on your part. I don't think it is as universal as you might think. I would like to see the link where those that don't want to take down monuments are racist. I think that there are many who are racist but not all.

I am guessing from previous posts that Monte is far from racist. And yet he isn't for immediately tearing down all confederate monuments. But you would label him racist.

I think you are missing the nuance to his argument. And you blew by a really good idea because of that...

The poster's position isn't whoever supports confederate statues remaining up is a racist but rather you're giving cover to racists by offering some middle ground on the statue issue.

Let's put it this way. If monuments to rapists were erected with the explicit purpose of using them to intimidate rape victims then hemming and hawing over their removal is giving cover to rapists.

We know why the confederate statues are up and it has nothing to do with history and everything to do with asserting white dominance during the civil rights movement.

[Pointgod]

[instagram][/instagram]

I posted this earlier - but isn't this more obfuscation?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nyc-mayor-bill-de-blasio-may-take-down-christopher-columbus-statue/

Christopher Columbus was a pirate, a rapist and a scumbag. He deserves zero accolades or celebration considering you can't discover a country that already has inhabitants and there are multiple accounts that previous explorers from multiple regions have already visited what eventually came to be known as America.

[Pointgod]

I posted this earlier - but isn't this more obfuscation?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nyc-mayor-bill-de-blasio-may-take-down-christopher-columbus-statue/

The reality is that many famous people should be framed as people of there time and not today's politically correct society. That doesn't mean those famous persons inadequacies should not be exposed. The other factor is the old adage in that the winner writes the history. But also the reason a statue is erected also puts that its survival into context many of the Confederate Statues were done in the Jim Crow era as symbol to suppress African Americans.

This debate has come into Canada with some First Nations people wanting a name of a university changed and statues of John McDonald our 1st Prime Minister removed. Yet at the same time First Nations people are not after removing similar monuments to Chief Joseph Brant who was the largest slave owner in Upper Canada when John Simcoe abolished slavery in 1792. ( I believe that First Nations people have legitimate grievances that need to addressed. )

As others have mentioned larger problems need to addressed such as Republican attempts to reduce the ability of minorities to vote in elections.

People can walk and chew gum. Attention can be focused on multiple issues and focusing on the confederate monuments doesn't takeaway from the major issue of voter suppression which should be completely bipartisan.