All Things Luka Doncic

[Thespianoid]

some bad habits I've noticed the past few games -

1. he's started to hunt switches too often. Once he's noticed a switch out of the PnR he'll pull the ball back and ISO, usually trying to generate a stepback 3. Ends up taking way too many low% shots. Not sure why he does that, needs to cut out the Kyrie-like overdribbling and instead attack north-south with change of pace.

2. Also sometimes he catches/holds/waits for a pick after a kickout instead of attacking immediately off the catch vs a closing out player. Gotta keep the possession moving, not negate the created advantage.

[SportsGuy8]

Yeah, indeed. Sure it looks nice when he ends up scoring, but this really isn't efficient/winning basketball. It also stagnates the offense.

He's going to fit right in in the NBA, though. But even NBA is changing in this regard.

[Rn5ho]

15 pts, 9 reb, 3 ast, 2 stl in 27mins vs France for Doncic while playing with fever. Didn't pay close attention to direct matchups, but nevertheless he was up against de Colo (one of the best guards in Euroleague) and Fournier (17/3/3 NBA guard) and outshined them both.

[Jkam31]

Fox
Bogdan
Donic

Get it done Vlade


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[916fan]

So when it comes to comparing Doncic to other prospects, level of competition and the fact Doncic plays against much better players is extremely important, to the point we discredit everything other propsects do. But when we compare Dragic to Euros like Diamantidis, the fact that Dragic made a very successful career playing against far better competition, best competition in the world in NBA, that doesn't matter... No relatively garbage Euro leagues mean all? NBA sample size is far larger than some FIBA games, but whatever, glorify Euroleague stars to the point its hilarious, and call other posters pathetic while doing it. This is just getting sad.

This is exactly why we can't have nice things (in this case Doncic threads).

I'm a big Doncic "homer" and even I admit that hyperbole is ridiculous on BOTH sides of the argument. As I said before, it mostly comes down to the core FIBA vs. NBA (and Euroleague vs. NBA) debate that's been going on on these boards for more than a DECADE (seriously ). And Doncic, due to his characteristics (extremely skilled but athletically somewhat questionable player), brings that debate to front like nothing else. Americans tend to underrate FIBA and European basketball, while Europeans tend to underrate NBA and think it's just some stupid circus show with the basis of making monies ...

It's never going to end ...

This argument will never end imo. I'm an NBA fan and I don't watch Euro ball at all, unless I'm scouting prospects. From reading this board and a few others, I noticed that a lot of Euro fans scout overseas NBA prospects by Euroleague standards. For ex, I've observed that Euro fans don't care a lot about athleticism or quickness. In the NBA, athleticism is one of the mandatory things you need as a player. There are always a few exceptions, but look at the top 30 players in the league. How many of them are unathletic? 0. How many of them are below average athletes? 0.

Athleticism isn't the only thing an NBA player needs, but there's a reason why some of the best Euroleague players don't materialize in the NBA. The two leagues are different from one another.. but it's clear which one has more talents.

[Rn5ho]

This argument will never end imo. I'm an NBA fan and I don't watch Euro ball at all, unless I'm scouting prospects. From reading this board and a few others, I noticed that a lot of Euro fans scout overseas NBA prospects by Euroleague standards. For ex, I've observed that Euro fans don't care a lot about athleticism or quickness. In the NBA, athleticism is one of the mandatory things you need as a player. There are always a few exceptions, but look at the top 30 players in the league. How many of them are unathletic? 0. How many of them are below average athletes? 0.

Athleticism isn't the only thing an NBA player needs, but there's a reason why some of the best Euroleague players don't materialize in the NBA. The two leagues are different from one another.. but it's clear which one has more talents.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/stephen-curry

Far below NBA standard in regard to explosivenes and athleticism

Lacks great athletic ability

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/klay-thompson

An average athlete who plays below the rim

His lack of elite athleticism gets exposed in the transition game

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/nikola-jokic

An average athlete lacking great speed and leaping ability

For some reason people are comparing 18 y/o kid (granted, with big talent who plays ahead of his age curve) with 5-10 year NBA veterans who are at the prime of their game. That's unfair.

[Marcus]

This argument will never end imo. I'm an NBA fan and I don't watch Euro ball at all, unless I'm scouting prospects. From reading this board and a few others, I noticed that a lot of Euro fans scout overseas NBA prospects by Euroleague standards. For ex, I've observed that Euro fans don't care a lot about athleticism or quickness. In the NBA, athleticism is one of the mandatory things you need as a player. There are always a few exceptions, but look at the top 30 players in the league. How many of them are unathletic? 0. How many of them are below average athletes? 0.

Athleticism isn't the only thing an NBA player needs, but there's a reason why some of the best Euroleague players don't materialize in the NBA. The two leagues are different from one another.. but it's clear which one has more talents.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/stephen-curry

Far below NBA standard in regard to explosivenes and athleticism

Lacks great athletic ability

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/klay-thompson

An average athlete who plays below the rim

His lack of elite athleticism gets exposed in the transition game

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/nikola-jokic

An average athlete lacking great speed and leaping ability

For some reason people are comparing 18 y/o kid (granted, with big talent who plays ahead of his age curve) with 5-10 year NBA veterans who are at the prime of their game. That's unfair.

None of them were the number one pick, which is the topic of this discussion. I don't think you'll find many if any that feel like Doncic can't play in the NBA. The main point is it's a different game where athleticism is a lot of the times the difference between good and great when skill level rounds out equally.

Haven't watched a lot of Doncic which is why I typically stay out of this thread outside of policing it due to some of the habits of the posters in it. That being said I'd be extremely surprised if he ends up being the number one pick. Not because of a lack of ability on his part but simply because the bias isn't in his favor.

Fact of the matter is unless he leaves Real Madrid and decides to play for one of the collegiate blue bloods this year in the NCAA he's going to be behind the curve when compared to the kids that NBA scouts get to see in the NCAA. Bargs kinda ruined the concept of a European player being the number one pick. International studs don't go first without American exposure for a extended period of time unless we're talking about something freakish (Yao Ming). You see top prospects against NBA level athletes regularly during an NCAA season which is why those near the top usually stay at the top when compared to young European standouts. That's not a knock on any Euro-league players just the existing bias that probably won't go anywhere for a while.

Doncic playing against grown men in Europe only goes so far. It helps that he's a professional already, it helps that he's aware of the grind of a professional schedule, it helps in terms of physicality, and he'd hopefully be more mature. All positives. But if I'm scouting for the NBA and I see 4 or 5 kids that will be NBA players playing full seasons against a slew of other kids that showcase similar traits to what those kids will see from NBA players I'm guessing they have the edge over a kid playing full seasons against guys that don't. Might not be fair but doesn't make it any less factual.

Also Doncic is in a bit of a crappy class to make the leap over. It's a bigs heavy draft near the top and size always wins out when it comes to making picks. In some cases even if the talent gap isn't close between a smaller player and a larger player, the larger player wins the selection due to sheer size. So in the case this year where the bigs ARE extremely talented WITH NCAA exposure Luka despite all the skills and relatively good hype is a longggggg shot for number one IMO. I'll gladly come in here and say I'm wrong if he does end up going first. Just think it's going to take a lot of moving parts in his favor to make that happen. We're talking at least 4 kids have to be god-awful this season with no signs for improvement for Luka to make that leap.

[burek3]

All he needs is that the right team for him picks him, be it 1st or 10th or even uck it, 40th pick. Nothing else.

But yeah, as far as the thread goes, almost definitely will not be the 1st pick.

[Marcus]

All he needs is that the right team for him picks him, be it 1st or 10th or even uck it, 40th pick. Nothing else.

But yeah, as far as the thread goes, almost definitely will not be the 1st pick.

I'd personally love to see him in Denver. With the ball movement, shooters, and cutters they have there I think he'd thrive.

[SportsGuy8]

I think that with the Celtics trading their Nets pick, the chances of Doncic going first dropped quite a bit. Not that they were THAT high to begin with.

Other remaining possible candidates are the Kings and maybe the Bulls (they keep getting fascinated by the Euros). But even if they end up having their minds set on Doncic, they could still trade down to pick him at #3, for example.

Doncic could make another leap, though. IF (and that's a big if) he truly starts "dominating" in Europe (putting up something like 18-8-8 per36), it's going to be hard to pass on him ...

[burek3]

Llull's misfortune just might have made a career for Doncic. It's not nice to be "happy" about someone's injury, but still...

[kayath]

All he needs is that the right team for him picks him, be it 1st or 10th or even uck it, 40th pick. Nothing else.

But yeah, as far as the thread goes, almost definitely will not be the 1st pick.

I'd personally love to see him in Denver. With the ball movement, shooters, and cutters they have there I think he'd thrive.

He would fit there nicely. I would personaly like to see him in Spurs uniform but that cant realy happen. Not a spurs fan so to speak but I think their front office is one of the best if not the best with Popovich I really dont want to see him as king or as a net while there clearly dont know how to handle solid prospects.

[Mirotic12]

His shots are not falling, but this doesn't worry me at all. He's trying too much to meet the expectations, but the matter of fact is that anything under 20/8/6 (ish) is considered "sub-par" by people. He's still an 18 y/o playing 1st major tournament against the best players of Europe. His teammates are also sub-par offensively, the amount of open shots he created for them and they failed to capitalize.. crazy, he'd deserve way higher assists number.

Still, he's 13.5/7/3.5 which is a really decent number! He's also shooting 39% from the field and if he had his usual %'s, he'd also have higher PPG. I'm personally happy with his performances and expect some more really good ones. Today already is a really good chance to show up against France.

Best players of Europe is an exaggeration though. That used to be the case years ago with EuroBasket. Most of these teams now are not even as good as a good EuroCup (league level below EuroLeague) team.

From this limited sample size of games at EuroBasket, which is definitely below EuroLeague level.......

I see the positive that to my eye Doncic is clearly a much better all around player on offense than Goran Dragic, and it's not even close. However, I also see the negative, in that we already knew he could not beat people off the dribble in EuroLeague, and could not guard man to man laterally against guards there either. But now we also know, that at EuroBasket, where lots of players are EuroCup level or worse, the same still applies.

Too slow laterally on defense, and can't beat anyone off the dribble. And has a bad habit when he can't beat someone off the dribble of throwing up a ridiculous step back 3 that has like a 20-25% chance of going in.

With that being said, what also holds true, is that indeed the rules and reffing difference from NBA makes an issue. Just as several posters have said here. Most NBA fans don't want seem to want to know it, but fact is NBA rules and reffing make the players all look much faster, and more athletic than they could be in FIBA basketball.

G. Dragic, Doncic's own teammate on Slovenia, is proof of that. It's amazing to me how much slower Dragic looks in this FIBA tournament than he does in the NBA. It's like he is carrying 30 extra pounds of weight since NBA season ended or something - when in reality, it's simply that NBA rules and reffing are gone, so his speed and quickness is greatly reduced under FIBA style.

So yeah, that rules and reffing difference should help Doncic on offense in the NBA, where he will magically appear faster than he is now, due to the rules. The hope he has to have is that he does not get with one of the few NBA coaches that cares at all about defense.

Still, despite being obviously slow, especially for an 18 year old, his all around game, except for defense, is really good. Really good, at just 18.

[burek3]

Most? From what i can see in the brackets http://www.fiba.basketball/eurobasket/2017/groups , there are only 2 clear outsiders in the top16, Ukraine and Hungary. All other teams there are easily on EuroLeague+ level.

So that's 10 trash teams among the original 24, for which I would not use the term "most". And even those trash teams have a player or two that stand out from the average.

Oh right, there's no Spanoulis on the Greek team, they are also mega trash for that fact, pardon me.

Luka played very well against France, Greece and Finland in the group phase. He had average game against Poland, but that is understandable, it was his first official senior NT game.

[916fan]

This argument will never end imo. I'm an NBA fan and I don't watch Euro ball at all, unless I'm scouting prospects. From reading this board and a few others, I noticed that a lot of Euro fans scout overseas NBA prospects by Euroleague standards. For ex, I've observed that Euro fans don't care a lot about athleticism or quickness. In the NBA, athleticism is one of the mandatory things you need as a player. There are always a few exceptions, but look at the top 30 players in the league. How many of them are unathletic? 0. How many of them are below average athletes? 0.

Athleticism isn't the only thing an NBA player needs, but there's a reason why some of the best Euroleague players don't materialize in the NBA. The two leagues are different from one another.. but it's clear which one has more talents.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/stephen-curry

Far below NBA standard in regard to explosivenes and athleticism

Lacks great athletic ability

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/klay-thompson

An average athlete who plays below the rim

His lack of elite athleticism gets exposed in the transition game

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/nikola-jokic

An average athlete lacking great speed and leaping ability

For some reason people are comparing 18 y/o kid (granted, with big talent who plays ahead of his age curve) with 5-10 year NBA veterans who are at the prime of their game. That's unfair.

Those guys were obviously wrong about Steph. I think quickness falls under athleticism. Steph is one of the quickest players in the NBA. He's also explosive attacker as well. In general, I think Steph is a good athlete, but he's not explosive around the rim, and can't dunk. Just because his vertical hops aren't good, doesn't mean he's a poor athlete.
Klay Thompson is an average athlete...as NBAdraft pointed. I didn't say you need to be an elite athlete for the NBA. I said you need to be an average athlete. There aren't any top 30 players in the NBA who are unathletic, or even below average.
Hops don't equal athleticism. For ex, Grayson Allen can dunk the crap out of the ball, but he's only an average athlete due to his speed on ball, slow first step, and troubles turning corners.

Jokic is one of the few exceptions. He's actually a really rare exception because he's such a skilled offensive player. There aren't many 6'11 centers with ball handling, elite passing, and a good shooting stroke.

[916fan]

I think that with the Celtics trading their Nets pick, the chances of Doncic going first dropped quite a bit. Not that they were THAT high to begin with.

Other remaining possible candidates are the Kings and maybe the Bulls (they keep getting fascinated by the Euros). But even if they end up having their minds set on Doncic, they could still trade down to pick him at #3, for example.

Doncic could make another leap, though. IF (and that's a big if) he truly starts "dominating" in Europe (putting up something like 18-8-8 per36), it's going to be hard to pass on him ...

I could see the Kings drafting Doncic because of the FO's euro connections, but I'd be seriously disappointed. Not disappointed in Doncic as a prospect, but disappointed of the terrible fit of Fox-Doncic. I'm not the biggest fan fan of Fox because I see him as a ball dominant slashing PG that can't shoot. Doncic will be a PG in the NBA. Doncic can play off-ball, but he's being hyped as the #1 prospect because of his ability to play PG and run an offense. With Fox in the backcourt, he won't be able to do that. This is the biggest issue I had with drafting Fox. You basically have to cater an entire offense around him. Welp. Time to read old threads about Fox to make myself feel better about him.

[Mirotic12]

Most? From what i can see in the brackets http://www.fiba.basketball/eurobasket/2017/groups , there are only 2 clear outsiders in the top16, Ukraine and Hungary. All other teams there are easily on EuroLeague+ level.

So that's 10 trash teams among the original 24, for which I would not use the term "most". And even those trash teams have a player or two that stand out from the average.

Oh right, there's no Spanoulis on the Greek team, they are also mega trash for that fact, pardon me.

Incorrect.

Russia = nowhere near as good as CSKA or Khimki

Spain (the best team on paper) = something similar to Real Madrid

Greece (the 2nd best team on paper) = nowhere near as good as Panathinaikos or Olympiacos

Turkey = nowhere near as good as Efes of Fener

Germany = not as good as Brose (which is one of the weaker teams in EuroLeague)

Italy = more or less about similar to Olimpia Milano, but not as deep or versatile

Serbia = more or less the good versions of Red Star

Croatia, Latvia, France, Lithuania...none of them has a roster approaching that of the good EuroLeague teams.

Finland, Iceland, Belgium, Poland, Czech Republic, Georgia, Great Britain, Israel, Ukraine, Hungary, Montenegro, Romania = EuroCup level, Champions League level, or worse.

Not even possible for debate or discussion on this one. EuroLeague is way better.

[jinxed]

Most? From what i can see in the brackets http://www.fiba.basketball/eurobasket/2017/groups , there are only 2 clear outsiders in the top16, Ukraine and Hungary. All other teams there are easily on EuroLeague+ level.

So that's 10 trash teams among the original 24, for which I would not use the term "most". And even those trash teams have a player or two that stand out from the average.

Oh right, there's no Spanoulis on the Greek team, they are also mega trash for that fact, pardon me.

Incorrect.

Russia = nowhere near as good as CSKA or Khimki

Spain (the best team on paper) = something similar to Real Madrid

Greece (the 2nd best team on paper) = nowhere near as good as Panathinaikos or Olympiacos

Turkey = nowhere near as good as Efes of Fener

Germany = not as good as Brose (which is one of the weaker teams in EuroLeague)

Italy = more or less about similar to Olimpia Milano, but not as deep or versatile

Serbia = more or less the good versions of Red Star

Croatia, Latvia, France, Lithuania...none of them has a roster approaching that of the good EuroLeague teams.

Finland, Iceland, Belgium, Poland, Czech Republic, Georgia, Great Britain, Israel, Ukraine, Hungary, Montenegro, Romania = EuroCup level, Champions League level, or worse.

Not even possible for debate or discussion on this one. EuroLeague is way better.

Come on now...I'm a Real Madrid fan, but they are not in the same league as the National Team.

[Mirotic12]

Most? From what i can see in the brackets http://www.fiba.basketball/eurobasket/2017/groups , there are only 2 clear outsiders in the top16, Ukraine and Hungary. All other teams there are easily on EuroLeague+ level.

So that's 10 trash teams among the original 24, for which I would not use the term "most". And even those trash teams have a player or two that stand out from the average.

Oh right, there's no Spanoulis on the Greek team, they are also mega trash for that fact, pardon me.

Incorrect.

Russia = nowhere near as good as CSKA or Khimki

Spain (the best team on paper) = something similar to Real Madrid

Greece (the 2nd best team on paper) = nowhere near as good as Panathinaikos or Olympiacos

Turkey = nowhere near as good as Efes of Fener

Germany = not as good as Brose (which is one of the weaker teams in EuroLeague)

Italy = more or less about similar to Olimpia Milano, but not as deep or versatile

Serbia = more or less the good versions of Red Star

Croatia, Latvia, France, Lithuania...none of them has a roster approaching that of the good EuroLeague teams.

Finland, Iceland, Belgium, Poland, Czech Republic, Georgia, Great Britain, Israel, Ukraine, Hungary, Montenegro, Romania = EuroCup level, Champions League level, or worse.

Not even possible for debate or discussion on this one. EuroLeague is way better.

Come on now...I'm a Real Madrid fan, but they are not in the same league as the National Team.

Real is just as good, if not better. Unless you think Pau could get 20/10 over an 85 game season (he 100% cannot).

[jinxed]

Incorrect.

Russia = nowhere near as good as CSKA or Khimki

Spain (the best team on paper) = something similar to Real Madrid

Greece (the 2nd best team on paper) = nowhere near as good as Panathinaikos or Olympiacos

Turkey = nowhere near as good as Efes of Fener

Germany = not as good as Brose (which is one of the weaker teams in EuroLeague)

Italy = more or less about similar to Olimpia Milano, but not as deep or versatile

Serbia = more or less the good versions of Red Star

Croatia, Latvia, France, Lithuania...none of them has a roster approaching that of the good EuroLeague teams.

Finland, Iceland, Belgium, Poland, Czech Republic, Georgia, Great Britain, Israel, Ukraine, Hungary, Montenegro, Romania = EuroCup level, Champions League level, or worse.

Not even possible for debate or discussion on this one. EuroLeague is way better.

Come on now...

Anyone can look at the teams and see it. Spain isn't even as good as the better EuroLeague teams, and there are 5-6 teams in EuroBasket that would be trash even in EuroCup level.

Quite frankly, no one's basketball knowledge can be taken seriously in the slightest, if they disagree.

There are many Euroleague teams who would beat most of these National teams, but not Spain. You can't say that with a straight face. Spain's reserves would beat Real Madrid, hell most of Spain's reserves are the best players on Real Madrid!