Higher peak: Kawhi Leonard vs Sir Charles Barkley

[mischievous]

Who peaked higher? It doesn't matter whether you think Kawhi has peaked or not, go by what he's done so far, has he already peaked higher than Charles?

[mischievous]

Great responses.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Spoiler:

No.

[inDe_eD]

It's pretty crazy that you could make this an offense-only discussion and it wouldn't be a ridiculous conversation to have, which makes me lean Kawhi for single year peak.

Charles is obviously the better post scorer, but Kawhi is probably his equal in the midrange game, and vastly superior from the three point line. Volume, TS, and playmaking are all roughly the same.

[Winsome Gerbil]

It's pretty crazy that you could make this an offense-only discussion and it wouldn't be a ridiculous conversation to have, which makes me lean Kawhi for single year peak.

Charles is obviously the better post scorer, but Kawhi is probably his equal in the midrange game, and vastly superior from the three point line. Volume, TS, and playmaking are all roughly the same.

er...you must have an unusual definition of playmaking.

[HeartBreakKid]

Charles equal to Kawhi in mid range? Kawhi is a much better shooter and he has no problems creating his own shot.

Offensively, Kawhi is catching up with the elites. You can see it from the way he plays, you can see it from his stats, you can see it from his latest playoff run.

Defensively, well, Kawhi is probably going to end up becoming the best wing defender of all time, I'm not sure what makes Scottie Pippen better than him at this point. Take into account that Charles at times can be a defensive liability, and I'm siding with Leonard.


Kawhi is the 2nd best player in the NBA, it's jokes that there are people who think he can't be compared to Charles Barkley. You guys think 90s players are really that much better than today's players?

[Ron Swanson]

I don't think it has anything to do with "90's players being untouchable". I think it has everything to do with the absurdity in saying that Kawhi is already equal offensively to a Top-5 offensive player ever.

[Kabookalu]

I don't think it has anything to do with "90's players being untouchable". I think it has everything to do with the absurdity in saying that Kawhi is already equal offensively to a Top-5 offensive player ever.

Huge Kawhi fan, but yeah, he's nowhere near close to Barkley as an offensive player. Even if Kawhi dogged it on defense so he has more energy to spend on offense I still don't think he'd be nearly as good. Barkley was just that good in his prime.

[mischievous]

No.

Wait what's so crazy about this comparison? You're a numbers guy right?

2017 Kawhi: 25.5/5.8/3.5 61 ts% 27.6 PER 6.4 OBPM 7.9 BPM then playoffs: 27.7/7.8/4.6 31.5 PER 67.2 ts% 8.7 OBPM 11.3 BPM

Looking at Barkley's best statistical season:

28.3/11.9/3.2 66.5 ts% 27.6 PER 8.3 OBPM 9.0 BPM

They have the same PER, not a big difference in BPM, and Kawhi's playoffs beat any of Barkley's statistically. None of those stats even accurately capture Kawhi's massive defensive advantage either.

[mischievous]

I don't think it has anything to do with "90's players being untouchable". I think it has everything to do with the absurdity in saying that Kawhi is already equal offensively to a Top-5 offensive player ever.

Calling Barkley a top 5 offensive player ever is hyperbole. Mj, Magic, Lebron, Oscar, Kareem, Shaq and Bird are all clearly better.

[magicmerl]

Put me in the camp of people who think that Kawhi hasn't necessarily peaked in his career yet.... That said, I'm going to take 1990 for Barkley and 2017 for Kawhi as their respective peaks. Here's their per-100 numbers:

Barkley1990 32.1PTS 14.7REB 4.9AST 2.4STL 0.8BLK 3.9TO 4.0PF .661TS% 17.3WS .269WS/48
Kawhi__2017 38.9PTS 08.9REB 5.4AST 2.7STL 1.1BLK 3.2TO 2.5PF .610TS% 13.6WS .264WS/48

Barkley's extra fouls and rebounds are both positional advantages. Bit of a wash as scorers too, since Kawhi scored more but Barkley was more efficient, plus his passing out of the doubleteam frequently resulted in an open shot, but he wasn't the direct assister.

Playoffs

Barkley1990 30.4PTS 19.1REB 5.3AST 1.0STL 0.9BLK 3.7TO 4.4PF .589TS% .176WS/48
Kawhi__2017 39.8PTS 11.2REB 6.6AST 2.4STL 0.7BLK 3.1TO 2.5PF .672TS% .314WS/48

Barkley's rebounding moved up to elite levels. But everything else screams Kawhi here.

[dhsilv2]

I remain as I guess what some could call a spurs fan, at a loss for why people think Leonard is THAT good a defender. I also completely disagree with both his DPOY awards, imo he cheapened the award greatly by winning it.

Now that said I don't think this is at all a crazy comparison. I do however think Chuck is an underrated defender. Chuck I think was slightly better peak vs peak, but it's certainly close enough. Hopefully we get to see leonard healthy for a full playoff run as "the man" and after this year maybe we can come back to this. For now I'd like to see more on Leonard before I move him over Chuck.

[HeartBreakKid]

I don't think it has anything to do with "90's players being untouchable". I think it has everything to do with the absurdity in saying that Kawhi is already equal offensively to a Top-5 offensive player ever.

I mean the 3rd post is some lame meme that makes it seem like the comparison is crazy, period - not just offensively.

[euroleague]

I'm going with Barkley.

Kawhi was good last year. But he can't carry an offense on his shoulders. He wouldn't beat MJ for MVP.

These are both very, historically, potable players. Barkley was at his best in the Olympics, surrounded by superstars. Kawhi is at his best vs a superstar. But, if the opposing team's superstar is a big man Kawhi becomes far less high impact than Barkley.

Offense will always be effective, but defense is very matchup dependent. So, I went with Chuck.

[Clyde Frazier]

No.

Reminder: we don't do memes here in discussion threads, especially when nothing else is added to the post.

[AdagioPace]

I'm going with Barkley.

Kawhi was good last year. But he can't carry an offense on his shoulders. He wouldn't beat MJ for MVP.

These are both very, historically, potable players. Barkley was at his best in the Olympics, surrounded by superstars. Kawhi is at his best vs a superstar. But, if the opposing team's superstar is a big man Kawhi becomes far less high impact than Barkley.

Offense will always be effective, but defense is very matchup dependent. So, I went with Chuck.

Defense defines the opposing team's Ortg. Leonard is not only a man-to-man defender

Also. plus minuses and related tell another story. Leonard's value stems more from his offense than defense nowadays. He is an almost elite scorer but also a good playmaker,borderline top 10 for FTr (stigma of an aggressive offensive player), and he has a lot of gravity. Cherry on top,the offensive versatility, on ball,off ball,iso etc.. Leonard was 5th in the league in ORPM. I think many people are still stuck in the "two way player" paradigm when talking about leonard when infact Kawhi is morphing into a great offensive weapon with defense oscillating from good to great.

"Kawhi can't carry an offense on his shoulders"
is not remotely true. The playoffs (same usage but more touches) proved that he was one of the best offensive players in the league,although it remains to be seen if he can shoulder that involvement for an antire RS

[euroleague]

Defense defines the opposing team's Ortg. Leonard is not only a man-to-man defender

Also. plus minuses and related tell another story. Leonard's value stems more from his offense than defense nowadays. He is an almost elite scorer but also a good playmaker,borderline top 10 for FTr (stigma of an aggressive offensive player), and he has a lot of gravity. Cherry on top,the offensive versatility, on ball,off ball,iso etc.. Leonard was 5th in the league in ORPM. I think many people are still stuck in the "two way player" paradigm when talking about leonard when infact Kawhi is morphing into a great offensive weapon with defense oscillating from good to great.

"Kawhi can't carry an offense on his shoulders"
is not remotely true. The playoffs (same usage but more touches) proved that he was one of the best offensive players in the league,although it remains to be seen if he can shoulder that involvement for an antire RS

Popovich's system makes Kawhi an indispensable part of their offense. the spurs have had amazing offenses these past few years.

however, just watching Kawhi, he is a good shooter but not a good play-maker or facilitator. his biggest strength is definitely his defense.

[HeartBreakKid]

Defense defines the opposing team's Ortg. Leonard is not only a man-to-man defender

Also. plus minuses and related tell another story. Leonard's value stems more from his offense than defense nowadays. He is an almost elite scorer but also a good playmaker,borderline top 10 for FTr (stigma of an aggressive offensive player), and he has a lot of gravity. Cherry on top,the offensive versatility, on ball,off ball,iso etc.. Leonard was 5th in the league in ORPM. I think many people are still stuck in the "two way player" paradigm when talking about leonard when infact Kawhi is morphing into a great offensive weapon with defense oscillating from good to great.

"Kawhi can't carry an offense on his shoulders"
is not remotely true. The playoffs (same usage but more touches) proved that he was one of the best offensive players in the league,although it remains to be seen if he can shoulder that involvement for an antire RS

Popovich's system makes Kawhi an indispensable part of their offense. the spurs have had amazing offenses these past few years.

however, just watching Kawhi, he is a good shooter but not a good play-maker or facilitator. his biggest strength is definitely his defense.

Kawhi Leonard can score in isolation from anywhere on the court, doesn't that put him on the same footing with most great volume scorers? System play doesn't give someone a post game, efficient fade aways, the ability to get to the rim etc.

He is certainly improving in playmaking, to say he's not "good" at it seems a bit harsh. He moves the ball around and can pass out of double teams, at the very least he probably makes his teammates lives easier offensively.

[Woodsanity]

Its pretty close actually. Barkley is an underrated offensive player, definitely better than Kawhi on that end but Kawhi has grown by leaps and bounds offensively and has a very large defensive advantage.

I lean towards Barkley but Kawhi will likely improve again this upcoming season.

[penbeast0]

I'd take Kawhi for peak season with offense being within shouting distance but defense and intangibles screaming Leonard. However, Barkley did it consistently over a decade; let's see how Kawhi Leonard does in the upcoming seasons.