Political Roundtable Part XV

[Zonkerbl]

Meh, I can't hate people who are like "Trump is the only person in the room talking directly to the middle class." This is true, despite all his other failings.

I guess I should say "the white middle class who used to be union members and the Dems have kicked to the curb."

[dobrojim]

Democrats can better use their resources focusing on the 40% of voters that decided to stay home, voter suppression and people disappearing off voter rolls. I think this whole idea that appealing to the feelings of Trump voters will so how make them stop voting against their own interests is wishful thinking.

I agree with this up to a point. In theory, maybe is should work. That said, my
fear is that the level of cynicism, or realism, take your pick, is so high that very very
few of these non-participating potential voters are likely to change that lifelong habit and
begin voting. I've been waiting for it for 40 years because I also, arguably/irrationally(?)
believe that if they voted their interests, the side I prefer would win. And we'd have
a better country.

[Kanyewest]

I just find it odd that you voted for Obama (three times), voted for Sanders and yet seem to be an enthusiastic supporter of Trump.

Basically, you're supporting the man who questioned the citizenship of the person you voted for (three times), implied he only got into Harvard because of his race, accused him of illegal wiretapping, is trying to demolish his greatest accomplish (the ACA) etc etc.

In essence Trump is in direct opposition to everything Obama/Sanders stand for.

I understand being an independent to an extent but you have to have some certain core principals.

It's like being a Redskins and Cowboys fan.

I suppose Trump has some people acting out of their self interest. Perhaps people are acting emotionally than rationally because Clinton ran negative campaigns against both Obama and Sanders in 2016. In sports analogy terms, perhaps Sanders, Obama, and Clinton are division rivals (although Obama/Clinton are more similar). Although the Democrats and Republicans are more like they are different planets.

Hillary is demonized a bit because she isn't charismatic like her husband. But people seem to like Bill Clinton a lot more even though they more or less have the same policy decisions.

[Zonkerbl]

Democrats can better use their resources focusing on the 40% of voters that decided to stay home, voter suppression and people disappearing off voter rolls. I think this whole idea that appealing to the feelings of Trump voters will so how make them stop voting against their own interests is wishful thinking.

I agree with this up to a point. In theory, maybe is should work. That said, my
fear is that the level of cynicism, or realism, take your pick, is so high that very very
few of these non-participating potential voters are likely to change that lifelong habit and
begin voting. I've been waiting for it for 40 years because I also, arguably/irrationally(?)
believe that if they voted their interests, the side I prefer would win. And we'd have
a better country.

1) The last election was BRUTAL. Partly because we had an army of Russian-paid trolls stirring things up. Now that we are on our guard against Russian interference maybe the next election will be more civil. A lot of people stayed home just because the Trump supporters were that nasty. We won't let them intimidate us next time.
2) PEOPLE. WANTED. CHANGE. Agree with Bernie's policy ideas or not, he was an outsider with a reputation for speaking truth to power. He would have CRUSHED Trump. Because all the young people who came out to vote for Obama would've come out to vote for Bernie. And instead they frickin' voted for Trump or stayed home.

I think people who think the Democratic party has to keep lurching to the right to stay relevant don't understand modern politics. The people deciding the Presidential vote have NO IDEA what the issues are. Is the candidate exciting or not? Does he or she take time to actually come to my town and talk to me, to my face, and say you are on my side? Bernie did that. Trump did that. Hillary *didn't,* because she was so unpopular that everytime she went out to Michigan and Wisconsin and Ohio and Pennsylvania her poll numbers *dropped.*

Obama and Trump are both proof that the presidential candidate has to have that excitement factor. The Dems can't put up boring policy wonk stiffs like Al Gore and Michael Dukakis and Hillary Clinton. When a Bernie comes along, you hitch your wagon to that train. Lurch to the left if that's what it takes.

[Kanyewest]

Democrats can better use their resources focusing on the 40% of voters that decided to stay home, voter suppression and people disappearing off voter rolls. I think this whole idea that appealing to the feelings of Trump voters will so how make them stop voting against their own interests is wishful thinking.

I agree with this up to a point. In theory, maybe is should work. That said, my
fear is that the level of cynicism, or realism, take your pick, is so high that very very
few of these non-participating potential voters are likely to change that lifelong habit and
begin voting. I've been waiting for it for 40 years because I also, arguably/irrationally(?)
believe that if they voted their interests, the side I prefer would win. And we'd have
a better country.

1) The last election was BRUTAL. Partly because we had an army of Russian-paid trolls stirring things up. Now that we are on our guard against Russian interference maybe the next election will be more civil. A lot of people stayed home just because the Trump supporters were that nasty. We won't let them intimidate us next time.
2) PEOPLE. WANTED. CHANGE. Agree with Bernie's policy ideas or not, he was an outsider with a reputation for speaking truth to power. He would have CRUSHED Trump. Because all the young people who came out to vote for Obama would've come out to vote for Bernie. And instead they frickin' voted for Trump or stayed home.

I think people who think the Democratic party has to keep lurching to the right to stay relevant don't understand modern politics. The people deciding the Presidential vote have NO IDEA what the issues are. Is the candidate exciting or not? Does he or she take time to actually come to my town and talk to me, to my face, and say you are on my side? Bernie did that. Trump did that. Hillary *didn't,* because she was so unpopular that everytime she went out to Michigan and Wisconsin and Ohio and Pennsylvania her poll numbers *dropped.*

Obama and Trump are both proof that the presidential candidate has to have that excitement factor. The Dems can't put up boring policy wonk stiffs like Al Gore and Michael Dukakis and Hillary Clinton. When a Bernie comes along, you hitch your wagon to that train. Lurch to the left if that's what it takes.

Yes this is what I tried to tell my family members during the Democratic primaries. Perhaps Sanders' politics are too simplistic for some but certainly had more broad appeal than Clinton, especially since so many people dislike her.

I also feel that Clinton's campaign was a bit tone deaf. She ran as the "most qualified candidate" because she had the most experience. This was a negative considering as you stated that people wanted change.

Hopefully, the Democrats learn their lesson about picking a more charismatic person although they seem to repeat this mistake every decade (Al Gore, John Kerry, HRC). Although that's what happens when only 2-3 Democrats run in the primary. It was also certainly bad optics that Debbie Wasserman Schultz was the head of the DNC given that she used to be the chair of the Clinton campaign and seemed to discourage competition.

[dobrojim]

re HRC, I continually think back to the late night host who recorded people on the street
being asked if they heard about the most recent, but actually completely made up, dirt on her.
Plenty of people would immediately say, "oh yeah, I heard about that. She's awful". The dems
made a huge mistake in not realizing she wouldn't be able to overcome that in spite of how
"qualified' she was. And I think they underestimated how effective agit-prop coming from
the biggest crime boss in the world would be in suppressing enthusiasm and votes.

[cammac]

Democrats can better use their resources focusing on the 40% of voters that decided to stay home, voter suppression and people disappearing off voter rolls. I think this whole idea that appealing to the feelings of Trump voters will so how make them stop voting against their own interests is wishful thinking.

I agree with this up to a point. In theory, maybe is should work. That said, my
fear is that the level of cynicism, or realism, take your pick, is so high that very very
few of these non-participating potential voters are likely to change that lifelong habit and
begin voting. I've been waiting for it for 40 years because I also, arguably/irrationally(?)
believe that if they voted their interests, the side I prefer would win. And we'd have
a better country.

1) The last election was BRUTAL. Partly because we had an army of Russian-paid trolls stirring things up. Now that we are on our guard against Russian interference maybe the next election will be more civil. A lot of people stayed home just because the Trump supporters were that nasty. We won't let them intimidate us next time.
2) PEOPLE. WANTED. CHANGE. Agree with Bernie's policy ideas or not, he was an outsider with a reputation for speaking truth to power. He would have CRUSHED Trump. Because all the young people who came out to vote for Obama would've come out to vote for Bernie. And instead they frickin' voted for Trump or stayed home.

I think people who think the Democratic party has to keep lurching to the right to stay relevant don't understand modern politics. The people deciding the Presidential vote have NO IDEA what the issues are. Is the candidate exciting or not? Does he or she take time to actually come to my town and talk to me, to my face, and say you are on my side? Bernie did that. Trump did that. Hillary *didn't,* because she was so unpopular that everytime she went out to Michigan and Wisconsin and Ohio and Pennsylvania her poll numbers *dropped.*

Obama and Trump are both proof that the presidential candidate has to have that excitement factor. The Dems can't put up boring policy wonk stiffs like Al Gore and Michael Dukakis and Hillary Clinton. When a Bernie comes along, you hitch your wagon to that train. Lurch to the left if that's what it takes.

Where I disagree with you is that I think it is time for the Democrats to be fiscally conservative but socially progressive and that isn't a oxymoron.
Fiscally Conservative Moves
#1 Corporate Tax Reform yes the rate should be reduced to 15 to 20% but at the same time all the other deductions and special deals on reducing taxes to be eliminated. The reality is that the tax income for corporations especially financial institutions, energy sector, pharmaceuticals and agribusiness would likely pay more taxes. On the other hand small businesses would be rewarded.
#2 Inheritance Taxes have it tax free to a level such as $2 million but then have a sliding scale starting at 25% to 50% this would create a substantial income stream.
#3 Put in a Harmonized Sales Tax lets say 3% which is basically a consumption tax but with things like food, children's clothes , rent, houses exempt and then States could add sales taxes to it. For low in#5come residence a roll back is available.
#4 Currently the USA pays 3.7 Trillion on healthcare freeze introduce a single payer system but not Bernie's plan which is much more intensive than the Canadian Plan. Utilizing Employer and Employee contributions. Over time the % of GDP on healthcare will decrease.
Socially Progressive
#1 Universal Healthcare with Federal Government Transfers to have not States to allow standardize healthcare run by states.But under federal guidance and standards.
#2 Federal Government sets voting registration law for Federal Elections to be utilized by all States.
#3 Streamline the Federal Government reducing overlaps and bureaucracy an example federal law enforcement have 4 bureaus Home Land Security running FBI and Border Agents and the CIA.
#4 Tougher environmental laws

These a just few of what can be done sure you can add many others.

[dckingsfan]

Where I disagree with you is that I think it is time for the Democrats to be fiscally conservative but socially progressive and that isn't a oxymoron.
Fiscally Conservative Moves
#1 Corporate Tax Reform yes the rate should be reduced to 15 to 20% but at the same time all the other deductions and special deals on reducing taxes to be eliminated. The reality is that the tax income for corporations especially financial institutions, energy sector, pharmaceuticals and agribusiness would likely pay more taxes. On the other hand small businesses would be rewarded.
#2 Inheritance Taxes have it tax free to a level such as $2 million but then have a sliding scale starting at 25% to 50% this would create a substantial income stream.
#3 Put in a Harmonized Sales Tax lets say 3% which is basically a consumption tax but with things like food, children's clothes , rent, houses exempt and then States could add sales taxes to it. For low in#5come residence a roll back is available.
#4 Currently the USA pays 3.7 Trillion on healthcare freeze introduce a single payer system but not Bernie's plan which is much more intensive than the Canadian Plan. Utilizing Employer and Employee contributions. Over time the % of GDP on healthcare will decrease.
Socially Progressive
#1 Universal Healthcare with Federal Government Transfers to have not States to allow standardize healthcare run by states.But under federal guidance and standards.
#2 Federal Government sets voting registration law for Federal Elections to be utilized by all States.
#3 Streamline the Federal Government reducing overlaps and bureaucracy an example federal law enforcement have 4 bureaus Home Land Security running FBI and Border Agents and the CIA.
#4 Tougher environmental laws

These a just few of what can be done sure you can add many others.

Hey cammac, you do know you didn't describe a fiscally conservative path - you described a path to raise more revenue.

A fiscal conservative raises revenue but also cuts expenses to get a balanced budget.

Just saying...

[DCZards]

Thats said, obama was just a great politician so i thought it would translate to great world leader and lead america back into being a world power and creating real opportunity for all americans. I thought he would get stuff done that moved the needle. Things didn't really change and instead costs kind of skyrocketed. In the end made Obama a closet socialist/globalist-which i dont necessarily oppose.

The Obama Administration brought this country's economy back from the brink of a recession, dramatically reduced the unemployment rate, and put in place a law that has reduced the percentage of Americans without health insurance to the lowest level ever.

I'd call that "putting America first."

Thus far, Trump has been all bluster and threats. Get back to me when he has actually accomplished something.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[dckingsfan]

The Obama Administration brought this country's economy back from the brink of a recession...

I wish you had left this part out - his administration put together one of the worst stimulus bills (think Solyndra) ever put into place. It did very little to actually get the economy going. The later part of his administration was much more stable in terms of continued growth.

[cammac]

Where I disagree with you is that I think it is time for the Democrats to be fiscally conservative but socially progressive and that isn't a oxymoron.
Fiscally Conservative Moves
#1 Corporate Tax Reform yes the rate should be reduced to 15 to 20% but at the same time all the other deductions and special deals on reducing taxes to be eliminated. The reality is that the tax income for corporations especially financial institutions, energy sector, pharmaceuticals and agribusiness would likely pay more taxes. On the other hand small businesses would be rewarded.
#2 Inheritance Taxes have it tax free to a level such as $2 million but then have a sliding scale starting at 25% to 50% this would create a substantial income stream.
#3 Put in a Harmonized Sales Tax lets say 3% which is basically a consumption tax but with things like food, children's clothes , rent, houses exempt and then States could add sales taxes to it. For low in#5come residence a roll back is available.
#4 Currently the USA pays 3.7 Trillion on healthcare freeze introduce a single payer system but not Bernie's plan which is much more intensive than the Canadian Plan. Utilizing Employer and Employee contributions. Over time the % of GDP on healthcare will decrease.
Socially Progressive
#1 Universal Healthcare with Federal Government Transfers to have not States to allow standardize healthcare run by states.But under federal guidance and standards.
#2 Federal Government sets voting registration law for Federal Elections to be utilized by all States.
#3 Streamline the Federal Government reducing overlaps and bureaucracy an example federal law enforcement have 4 bureaus Home Land Security running FBI and Border Agents and the CIA.
#4 Tougher environmental laws

These a just few of what can be done sure you can add many others.

Hey cammac, you do know you didn't describe a fiscally conservative path - you described a path to raise more revenue.

A fiscal conservative raises revenue but also cuts expenses to get a balanced budget.

Just saying...

Fiscally responsible is to balance the budget and going to a single payer will become a savings in the future, streamlining the government also cuts costs substantially.

[verbal8]

Why stop there? I know some homeless guys who are HILARIOUS. Let's elect them!

Too bad Kimbo Slice passed away.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[CobraCommander]

I love this thread...but if you are politically active and read what the politicians actually do MORE than listen to what they say- you are in the minority. Because most americans vote for parties instead of principles, the politicans will never have accountability. The Democrats and Republicans are playing all of us and there are minor differences between the two when you look at what they really believe. For example...10 years ago republicans hated the idea of universal heath care but now the republicans are trying to repeal and REPLACE the ACA. So basically the republicans want universal healthcare but they want one that WORKS...lol. Ok!?!? Yeah and Trump is against late term abortion but please tell me when was the last time ANYONE tried to END abortion at the federal level? Democrats are pro immigration? Were more people deported under Bush or Obama? Obama hated imprisoning foreign nationals but Gitmo still open. Obama hated how Bush attacked people in Pakistan without Pakistani permission yet we bombed weddings and funerals in Pakistan under Obamas watch. I dont have a problem with either of these points...i just find it interesting that intelligent people can form a conherent opinion about the Wizards but you let Fox or CNN tell you what you think about politics. My recommendation is that if you are going to read the news to form an opinion..read Fox, CNN, Breibart and Al Jeezra about the same story. OR there is a real chance that you are just getting your opinion reinforced in a echo chamber.

[CobraCommander]

Read on Twitter

Why review them if EVEN when the state wants to prosecute cops the Judges and Juries refuse to convict them? I swear I dont have a problem with police...i would just like to see one convicted of shooting a unarmed or lawfully armed man. If you scared for your life every time someone goes for thier wallet, you should become an accountant and not do a scary job like police officer. You are NOT a brave police officer IF you SHOOT First and later find out that the man was unarmed....just being scared for your life doesn't justify killing people...or does it???

[stilldropin20]

Where I disagree with you is that I think it is time for the Democrats to be fiscally conservative but socially progressive and that isn't a oxymoron.

yes!!

Fiscally Conservative Moves
#1 Corporate Tax Reform yes the rate should be reduced to 15 to 20% but at the same time all the other deductions and special deals on reducing taxes to be eliminated. The reality is that the tax income for corporations especially financial institutions, energy sector, pharmaceuticals and agribusiness would likely pay more taxes. On the other hand small businesses would be rewarded.

yes

#2 Inheritance Taxes have it tax free to a level such as $2 million but then have a sliding scale starting at 25% to 50% this would create a substantial income stream.

good enough

#3 Put in a Harmonized Sales Tax lets say 3% which is basically a consumption tax but with things like food, children's clothes , rent, houses exempt and then States could add sales taxes to it. For low in#5come residence a roll back is available.
#4 Currently the USA pays 3.7 Trillion on healthcare freeze introduce a single payer system but not Bernie's plan which is much more intensive than the Canadian Plan. Utilizing Employer and Employee contributions. Over time the % of GDP on healthcare will decrease.

[/quote]

good enough for me.

Bottom line: Dems(libs) need to get off of identity politics as almost their (sole?) platform. and then name calling the opposition. (such as racist, misogynist, elitists, etc.) Its a disgusting brand of politics to be honest. This is where the countries divide was born. Not anything Trump said or did. Indentity politics and name labelling the opposition is where the divide actually occurs.

Libs used to actually run on something. Not any more. identity politics and labeling conservatives racists is about all they got. And its disgusting. the entire liberal platform is built on entitlements which have proven to keep people down more than lift them up. Libs dont care though so long as the show up every 4 years and keep getting the votes. When Donald trump said, "what else do you have to lose!!??" the generationally poor began to scratch their heads and be like, really "what DO we have to lose?" And I dont advocate cutting off entitlements abruptly or anything...too many people are too entrenched in entitlements as a life style and life choice. But I also dont see any point in encouraging people to NOT work. and entitlement do that. and to have children that clearly cant afford. entitlements do that. I mean you have to be 16 to drive and pass a class and a few tests. 18 to join the military. and 21 to drink. But you can have a child at 13? 14? 15? With no way to pay for that child? We need to issue some type of "license" to procreate and entitlements. But to the libs, it looks like they see them kids growing up on entitlement as more voters. Thats why they want open boarders. More voters.

and this is where conservatives(cons) have issues as well. Birth control is a good thing. Perhaps even early term abortions 4 months or earlier?). The GOP should not only respect the women's right to choose but in fact encourage it. If you are not ready to have children you simply should not have them. Cons. need to get off the bible thumping bull crap platform and get right with science as well. to that end. We clearly need some type of "license" to have children. You must prove that you can afford those children and are mature enough to raise them or have the support system. If not, state controlled birth control??

Conservatives should also get on board with (somewhat) identity politics at least a bit if not fully support LBGTQ life style, etc, etc.This will help take the wind out the liberal's sails. But this will be tough for the Cons. base in entrenched in this silly religion. basically the bible belt needs to be slowly educated and brought around to the 21st century of mutual respect. it may not be for you, but everyone should fully respect everyone else. How ever they choose to live or feel so long as it doesn't impose those choices on others.

[stilldropin20]

Thats said, obama was just a great politician so i thought it would translate to great world leader and lead america back into being a world power and creating real opportunity for all americans. I thought he would get stuff done that moved the needle. Things didn't really change and instead costs kind of skyrocketed. In the end made Obama a closet socialist/globalist-which i dont necessarily oppose.

The Obama Administration brought this country's economy back from the brink of a recession, dramatically reduced the unemployment rate, and put in place a law that has reduced the percentage of Americans without health insurance to the lowest level ever.

I'd call that "putting America first."

Thus far, Trump has been all bluster and threats. Get back to me when he has actually accomplished something.

the economy has been 100% trump. the dow. the credit markets. the money supply. employment participation. unempoloyment. everything began to turn hard right away from the recession on November 8th because trump campaigned on 15% corporate tax rate which would repatriate trillions of (american business) dollars currently paying as low as 10% in countries like Ireland (Apple). as well as bring back manufacturing. keeping current manufacturing in place. get out of bad paris accord where the US who has 1/100th the carbon foot print of India and china yet have more restrictions. etc. etc.

these are the reasons your 401K was down in october 2017 from its high in 2008 and instead of being down in now 10-15% higher depending on how aggressive your holdings. These are all Trump. The economy has all been trump. No way around that. None.

[stilldropin20]

I love this thread...but if you are politically active and read what the politicians actually do MORE than listen to what they say- you are in the minority. Because most americans vote for parties instead of principles, the politicans will never have accountability. The Democrats and Republicans are playing all of us and there are minor differences between the two when you look at what they really believe. For example...10 years ago republicans hated the idea of universal heath care but now the republicans are trying to repeal and REPLACE the ACA. So basically the republicans want universal healthcare but they want one that WORKS...lol. Ok!?!? Yeah and Trump is against late term abortion but please tell me when was the last time ANYONE tried to END abortion at the federal level? Democrats are pro immigration? Were more people deported under Bush or Obama? Obama hated imprisoning foreign nationals but Gitmo still open. Obama hated how Bush attacked people in Pakistan without Pakistani permission yet we bombed weddings and funerals in Pakistan under Obamas watch. I dont have a problem with either of these points...i just find it interesting that intelligent people can form a conherent opinion about the Wizards but you let Fox or CNN tell you what you think about politics. My recommendation is that if you are going to read the news to form an opinion..read Fox, CNN, Breibart and Al Jeezra about the same story. OR there is a real chance that you are just getting your opinion reinforced in a echo chamber.

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssss!!!!! exactly. read and watch all of them. when you can predict how each of these networks spin the "breaking news." then you begin to understand their fears and motivations. Once you understand that the truth begins to reveal itself.