"A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ The Equality & Other Issues Thread

[Fencer reregistered]

Once one stops fearing its government you are just a sitting duck. It’s extremely normal to not fully trust any politician elected or otherwise.

I don’t sit around and wait for something bad to happen, I just know that when an event of any kind occurs I’ll at least have a chance to do some good. Has nothing to do with Red Dawn or anything like that. I just like to be prepared. Food, water and weaponry. All three are vital to survival.

It's normal to not fully trust that politicians will consistently act with altruistic motives, it is not normal to think that in a western democracy like the US (or Canada, Australia, most of Europe etc) it is permanently one step away from some sort of Orwellian, authoritarian take over that you need to doomsday prep yourself for. Just because a certain percentage of US citizens (and citizens from other countries I am sure) think that way, does not make it normal.

It isn't actually from another time. It's new.

The Second Amendment was not written to grant individuals the right to have weapons, outside the context of a military reserve. Indeed, as late as 1970 or so the Chief Justice actually laughed at the idea that that's what the Constitution said.

Certainly not well versed in the details, thanks for the heads up.

The main danger of an Orwellian takeover is from the Trump-supporter side of things.

If he weren't an unstable idiot, our country could be in horrible trouble right now.

Fortunately, he doesn't have the ability to follow an Erdogan-style playbook.

Anybody who voted for Trump because they thought he'd oppose gun control and hence make an Orwellian takeover LESS likely is a complete and utter numbskull.

[ViperGTS]

It isn't actually from another time. It's new.

The Second Amendment was not written to grant individuals the right to have weapons, outside the context of a military reserve. Indeed, as late as 1970 or so the Chief Justice actually laughed at the idea that that's what the Constitution said.

What was the strategic goal of the march on a Lexington and Concord? More specially Concord?

It was to take cannons away from a well-regulated militia.

Everything. Rifles, powder, shot and cannon. It was the “right of the people to keep and bear arms”. Clear delineation between the militia and people.

[ViperGTS]

Once one stops fearing its government you are just a sitting duck. It’s extremely normal to not fully trust any politician elected or otherwise.

I don’t sit around and wait for something bad to happen, I just know that when an event of any kind occurs I’ll at least have a chance to do some good. Has nothing to do with Red Dawn or anything like that. I just like to be prepared. Food, water and weaponry. All three are vital to survival.

It's normal to not fully trust that politicians will consistently act with altruistic motives, it is not normal to think that in a western democracy like the US (or Canada, Australia, most of Europe etc) it is permanently one step away from some sort of Orwellian, authoritarian take over that you need to doomsday prep yourself for. Just because a certain percentage of US citizens (and citizens from other countries I am sure) think that way, does not make it normal.

It isn't actually from another time. It's new.

The Second Amendment was not written to grant individuals the right to have weapons, outside the context of a military reserve. Indeed, as late as 1970 or so the Chief Justice actually laughed at the idea that that's what the Constitution said.

Certainly not well versed in the details, thanks for the heads up.

The main danger of an Orwellian takeover is from the Trump-supporter side of things.

If he weren't an unstable idiot, our country could be in horrible trouble right now.

Fortunately, he doesn't have the ability to follow an Erdogan-style playbook.

Anybody who voted for Trump because they thought he'd oppose gun control and hence make an Orwellian takeover LESS likely is a complete and utter numbskull.

Explain how Trump supporters are a danger? Who shot up the Congressional Softball Practice? Trump supporter? How about what is slowly being roooted out about the Vegas situation? And mind you a concert full of mostly conservative leaning people.

Oh and shooting at a governmental body is generally what has precipitated wars in the past.

[Andrew McCeltic]

For now they are up a tick. The real problems haven’t started yet. If they go much longer without food and necessities who knows what it will turn into. That is a fear down there from what I’ve read.

Again. Just because it’s a remote possibility, doesn’t mean it’s not a possibility.

So how would an assault rifle, or ten, help you, in those circumstances?

There is no such thing as an assault rifle. Just like there is no assault knife or toothpick. But, if you are talking about a rifle then it is very handy.

What would be handy about a rifle able to fire as fast as the one Paddock used in Las Vegas? If civilization has collapsed because of a natural disaster, what are you doing with that gun?

Couldn’t you scrap the weapons and save up for an underground fallout shelter instead?

[Fencer reregistered]

What was the strategic goal of the march on a Lexington and Concord? More specially Concord?

It was to take cannons away from a well-regulated militia.

Everything. Rifles, powder, shot and cannon. It was the “right of the people to keep and bear arms”. Clear delineation between the militia and people.

General Gage's orders were to destroy "military stores". Are you claiming that he planned to disarm ordinary farmers?

[Fencer reregistered]

Explain how Trump supporters are a danger?

They voted for a man who declared his intention to commit multiple war crimes.
They voted for a man who encourages police brutality.
They voted for a man who pardoned one of the worst rights-destroying police officials in US history.
They voted for a man who encourages Nazis.
Some of them just voted for a Senatorial candidate who puts the Bible ahead of the Constitution. (I.e., he support Sharia Law, just based on a slightly different holy book.)
They voted for a man who is trying to gut the environment.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Perhaps Trump voters can be excused for the decision they made based on information available last November. But any American who still supports Trump is either an idiot or traitorous scum.

[claycarver]

Explain how Trump supporters are a danger?

They voted for a man who declared his intention to commit multiple war crimes.
They voted for a man who encourages police brutality.
They voted for a man who pardoned one of the worst rights-destroying police officials in US history.
They voted for a man who encourages Nazis.
Some of them just voted for a Senatorial candidate who puts the Bible ahead of the Constitution. (I.e., he support Sharia Law, just based on a slightly different holy book.)
They voted for a man who is trying to gut the environment.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Perhaps Trump voters can be excused for the decision they made based on information available last November. But any American who still supports Trump is either an idiot or traitorous scum.

The way you're thinking is just as dangerous as the way Trump supporters think. They also have a list of "idiot or traitorous scum" bullet points they use when they sneer at Hillary or Obama supporters. There were lists like this for Bush too.

I wonder if this is just a tense time of polarization or if we're close to snapping. I think my parent's generation lived through worse, but we'll see how far this goes.

[Fencer reregistered]

Explain how Trump supporters are a danger?

They voted for a man who declared his intention to commit multiple war crimes.
They voted for a man who encourages police brutality.
They voted for a man who pardoned one of the worst rights-destroying police officials in US history.
They voted for a man who encourages Nazis.
Some of them just voted for a Senatorial candidate who puts the Bible ahead of the Constitution. (I.e., he support Sharia Law, just based on a slightly different holy book.)
They voted for a man who is trying to gut the environment.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Perhaps Trump voters can be excused for the decision they made based on information available last November. But any American who still supports Trump is either an idiot or traitorous scum.

The way you're thinking is just as dangerous as the way Trump supporters think. They also have a list of "idiot or traitorous scum" bullet points they use when they sneer at Hillary or Obama supporters. There were lists like this for Bush too.

I wonder if this is just a tense time of polarization or if we're close to snapping. I think my parent's generation lived through worse, but we'll see how far this goes.

I strongly reject claims of two-sides equivalency. There is nothing anti-democratic that the left/Democrats have done that the right hasn't done at least a little worse. The reverse is not at all true.

As to your historical point -- for most things going on now, there was something worse in one or more of McCarthyism, Civil Rights and/or Vietnam era. My mother lost a career to McCarthyism. That isn't happening as much today. Civil Rights and Vietnam both had more actual civil violence than the present political struggle, except insofar as the death count in those might be superseded by big events (Waco, Oklahoma City, 9/11, Las Vegas, etc.)

But the general attempt to discredit and dismantle checks and balances -- courts, media, etc. -- is worse today than it's ever been, at least in peacetime. Joe McCarthy was brought down by a televised Congressional hearing. So to a large extent was Nixon. Donald Trump and his supporters might not allow the same thing to happen today. Trump's attacks on what the Founding Fathers put in place have no modern precedent.

[claycarver]

I strongly reject claims of two-sides equivalency.

Both sides do. You see that don't you? I'm not even talking about how correct your world view is. Maybe one side is right and the other side should be treated as traitors and dealt with accordingly. But taking rightness or wrongness out of it, both sides clearly reject equivalency when they see the other side as idiots or traitorous scum.

If you saw an equivalency, it would be practically impossible for you to view them the way you do.

As to your historical point -- for most things going on now, there was something worse in one or more of McCarthyism, Civil Rights and/or Vietnam era. My mother lost a career to McCarthyism. That isn't happening as much today. Civil Rights and Vietnam both had more actual civil violence than the present political struggle, except insofar as the death count in those might be superseded by big events (Waco, Oklahoma City, 9/11, Las Vegas, etc.)

Yeah, but as I said, we'll see how far this goes this time. It could swing out of control either way. I could see the Trump types over reaching to protect the county from "outsiders" or I could see the left regaining power and over reaching as they attempt to protect the country from the Trump types (the examples of violence you cite giving both sides the justification to over reach). I think the second option is ultimately more likely to gain traction than the first, but I don't really expect either to happen. I hope for an eventual mellowing out.

[165bows]

There are non-white and non-Western people that statement also applies to, but on balance, I'd take being a white American in the 1950s over a black American in 2017 or, say, a South American in 2017.

Honestly, I take being black in any era over being white. Some things matter more than day to day quality of life.

Unless I can be Keanu Reeves.

Outside of being actor and well paid..that dude has had some rough times lifewise. Plus I hear he’s a pretty good overall dude.

That's the crazy thing about life. What one perceives about another's life and their experience can be wildly different.

[ZeroTolerance]

Who shot up the Congressional Softball Practice?

One of your fellow gun nuts...

I rest my case....

[truth18]

Honestly, I take being black in any era over being white. Some things matter more than day to day quality of life.

Unless I can be Keanu Reeves.

Outside of being actor and well paid..that dude has had some rough times lifewise. Plus I hear he’s a pretty good overall dude.

That's the crazy thing about life. What one perceives about another's life and their experience can be wildly different.

For sure, a very apt and good point, but all I meant is that he's a cool dude with good hair. I know he had a rough childhood.

Basically just trying to get across that I would never want to be white.

[ViperGTS]

Who shot up the Congressional Softball Practice?

One of your fellow gun nuts...

I rest my case....

Uh huh. Not quite. C+ for effort though.

[ryaningf]

This thread has lost it's way. Allow me to get it back on track:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

And now, some much needed perspective:
https://www.theroot.com/this-is-only-the-deadliest-shooting-in-u-s-history-bec-1819112938

News reporters and anchors have repeatedly referred to the recent tragedy in Las Vegas as the “worst mass shooting in U.S. history.” Like all things that are constantly repeated, the proclamation has become fact.

So, according to that broad definition, we wondered: Is 64-year-old Stephen Paddock the worst mass shooter in the long history of America? Does the Las Vegas incident qualify as the “deadliest” mass-shooting incident?

Only if you don’t count black people.

Read on Twitter

Somebody referenced the quote from GoT (either here or in the previous thread): don't punish me for the sins of my father. Slavery, genocide, and racial inequality are America's original sin(s), and will forever be a part of what we are as a country. We aren't punishing anyone anymore, but it is necessary that we continually confront and acknowledge our past, sometimes on a daily basis. We are all sons and daughter of our culture, and dismissing the racism, genocide, and slavery this country was founded on is like denying the role your own father has in who you are and what you become. Everyone is situated in history and you cannot escape culpability with magical thinking.

[Fencer reregistered]

I strongly reject claims of two-sides equivalency.

Both sides do. You see that don't you?

There are many more "sides" than just two. This fact may be of limited importance the first week of November in even-numbered years. But it is very relevant now.

[ZeroTolerance]

Who shot up the Congressional Softball Practice?

One of your fellow gun nuts...

I rest my case....

Uh huh. Not quite. C+ for effort though.

I'll take it!

It's a start....

[claycarver]

I strongly reject claims of two-sides equivalency.

Both sides do. You see that don't you?

There are many more "sides" than just two. This fact may be of limited importance the first week of November in even-numbered years. But it is very relevant now.

True. There are many sides. But however many sides they are, it is common for them to describe others as idiots or traitorous scum, right? I've heard variations of that accusation at least as far back as Bill Clinton, I know.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Explain how Trump supporters are a danger?

They voted for a man who declared his intention to commit multiple war crimes.
They voted for a man who encourages police brutality.
They voted for a man who pardoned one of the worst rights-destroying police officials in US history.
They voted for a man who encourages Nazis.
Some of them just voted for a Senatorial candidate who puts the Bible ahead of the Constitution. (I.e., he support Sharia Law, just based on a slightly different holy book.)
They voted for a man who is trying to gut the environment.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Perhaps Trump voters can be excused for the decision they made based on information available last November. But any American who still supports Trump is either an idiot or traitorous scum.

The way you're thinking is just as dangerous as the way Trump supporters think. They also have a list of "idiot or traitorous scum" bullet points they use when they sneer at Hillary or Obama supporters. There were lists like this for Bush too.

I wonder if this is just a tense time of polarization or if we're close to snapping. I think my parent's generation lived through worse, but we'll see how far this goes.

No, I love to be even-handed, there are some severe problems on the left with speech, due process and paranoia on college campuses.

This list is worse. Trump is a unique case. Read about Arpaio.. Trump has just bombarded us with so many outrages, it’s easy to lose perspective on how outrageous he is. About a literal Nazi rally, “good people on both sides.” “Waterboarding... and worse!” Go after the families of ISIS... Russia, if you’re listening... Islam hates us.. Thousands of Muslims cheering on 9/11.. Telling supporters he’ll pay their legal fees if they beat up protesters. Firing the FBI director and admitting on TV a few days later it’s because Trump and Russia is a made up story.

I get the left has different goals for the country, that Hillary was flawed.. but partisanship aside, Trump is way way more not-normal.

[claycarver]

They voted for a man who declared his intention to commit multiple war crimes.
They voted for a man who encourages police brutality.
They voted for a man who pardoned one of the worst rights-destroying police officials in US history.
They voted for a man who encourages Nazis.
Some of them just voted for a Senatorial candidate who puts the Bible ahead of the Constitution. (I.e., he support Sharia Law, just based on a slightly different holy book.)
They voted for a man who is trying to gut the environment.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Perhaps Trump voters can be excused for the decision they made based on information available last November. But any American who still supports Trump is either an idiot or traitorous scum.

The way you're thinking is just as dangerous as the way Trump supporters think. They also have a list of "idiot or traitorous scum" bullet points they use when they sneer at Hillary or Obama supporters. There were lists like this for Bush too.

I wonder if this is just a tense time of polarization or if we're close to snapping. I think my parent's generation lived through worse, but we'll see how far this goes.

No, I love to be even-handed, there are some severe problems on the left with speech, due process and paranoia on college campuses.

This list is worse. Trump is a unique case. Read about Arpaio.. Trump has just bombarded us with so many outrages, it’s easy to lose perspective on how outrageous he is. About a literal Nazi rally, “good people on both sides.” “Waterboarding... and worse!” Go after the families of ISIS... Russia, if you’re listening... Islam hates us.. Thousands of Muslims cheering on 9/11.. Telling supporters he’ll pay their legal fees if they beat up protesters. Firing the FBI director and admitting on TV a few days later it’s because Trump and Russia is a made up story.

I get the left has different goals for the country, that Hillary was flawed.. but partisanship aside, Trump is way way more not-normal.

I agree Trump is worse. It doesn't follow that Trump supporters are idiots or traitorous scum. You can write off Trump, no problem. I wrote off Bush, Obama, Hillary, Trump...even though Trump is the worst, my threshold for incompetent leadership was crossed way back.

But my bar for writing off a half to a third of the county is much higher than Trump supporters. I figured out a long time ago that people are not supporting Presidents for the reasons I can't support them. They have lists too, and their lists don't look anything like my list.

[Fencer reregistered]

Both sides do. You see that don't you?

There are many more "sides" than just two. This fact may be of limited importance the first week of November in even-numbered years. But it is very relevant now.

True. There are many sides. But however many sides they are, it is common for them to describe others as idiots or traitorous scum, right? I've heard variations of that accusation at least as far back as Bill Clinton, I know.

Of course. The Democrats were the party of "Rum, Romanism and Rebellion". Then FDR was going to turn the country into a socialist dystopia. Medicare, per Ronald Reagan before he became governor of California, would be the end of freedom. Nixon's campaigns (especially when he ran for the Senate and then VP) were very nasty. Etc.

Mainstream Democrats have rarely repaid the Republicans in full measure for such vitriol, but there have also been nasty intraparty fights, e.g. against "RINOs" or Hillary Clinton. Even nastier than those, of course, was the era of "Hey, hey, LBJ; how many boys did you kill today?" My grandfather thought that one knife stuck into LBJ for each US death would be about right.

Nastiest of all, of course, are various fire-and-brimstone preachers, and we've had those since before the country was founded.

----------------------------------------------

But with all that said, we mustn't allow perpetual success of the Karl Rove strategy, which is to accuse other guys of your own flaws so that truthful attacks on you will sound like me-tooism.