Fultz vs. Tatum: What do you think now?

ermocrate · Post #201 » by **ermocrate** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:23 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
ermocrate wrote:
sam_I_am wrote:I loved the trade at the time and after last night I still do. I think both Fultz and Tatum will be studs. Fultz really looked like a guy who can score from anywhere and proved worthy of the hype. However, I think last night Tatum proved Ainge's point that picks 1-4 were comparible talents and therefore trading sideways to get another lottery pick was very wise. It's still early but I think Tatum showed me enough to believe that Ainge was serious when he said he would have picked him first.

I'm really curious to see what others think.

Well, we didn’t need a PG so the pick trade was a no branier until you don’t think we may get AD for the same package we used for Kyrie. Talking of players only amazingly great PGs flourish from the get go so it’s not a fair comparison right now. Anyway I value Tatum as a potential “crack” and I’m more the than happy with him.

Wouldn't shock me if Tatum, Ball, Jackson, Smith, Fox and Laurie M. all end up better than Fultz. And I don't think Fultz will be bad.

But I think the arguments will be about Tatum and Ball.

Most likely.

Post #202 » by **SmartWentCrazy** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:03 pm

I said all pre-draft that Tatum was the picture perfect, next generation PF. Feeling very confident in my evaluation.

I did have Fultz higher at first. I’m still confident in my pre-draft evaluation, but obviously the facts changed substantially as he decided to set his jumper on fire. No idea why he changed it and why the Sixers allowed it. Not shocked that team/medical staff found a way to mess everything up, though.

I’ll take Tatum, whom I originally had at 2, ahead of Fultz now for sure.

CeltsfanSinceBirth · Post #203 » by **CeltsfanSinceBirth** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:18 pm

Fultz wasn't even shooting around during pre-game shootaround yesterday. Guy looked content shagging rebounds. Wtf is going on with Philly's medical staff? Why isn't this kid sitting out if his shoulder hurts too much for him to be able to shoot jumpers? Are they still embarrassed about Embiid and Simmons not being able to play in their rookie seasons, to the point where they're just forcing Fultz to suit up?

SMTBSI · Post #204 » by **SMTBSI** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:25 pm

Option #5: I didn't know enough about any of the prospects to have an opinion one way or another when it happened, and like it now.

Note: poll could stand to be worded a little more neutrally.
- Option #1 should just be "didn't like the trade and still don't" - anyone who feels that way and wants to vote is cornered into saying they want Ainge fired, whether they do or not, or not voting, skewing the results.
- Option #4 should just be "liked the trade and now don't", in order to also cover anyone who prefers Ball.

As it stands, there are enough gaps in poll option coverage, that the results could contain a pretty fair amount of bias.

711takeover · Post #205 » by **711takeover** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:33 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
711takeover wrote:
paulbball wrote:Ball was my #1. He is generational talent. Fultz will be fine. Tatum will likely turn out better.

Simmons and Embiid are hurting his game. Both of them have been the focus of all the marketing material. Both of them have been anointed future of the franchise. Both handle the ball more than necessary.

Do you know what generational talent is? The generational players in the game as of this moment are Lebron, KD, and Steph. Ball can't shoot for s h i t. His passing you could MAYBE make a case for being generational but even that's reaching. He averaged 7 APG in college. For reference, Kendall Marshall averaged nearly 10 APG at UNC.

I dont know about the generational talent part ( I did have Ball #2 in the draft for what its worth), but just a few things. Ball as a freshman led the NCAA in assists, he also broke UCLA's single season assist mark and broke the PAC-12 freshmen assist record. Kendall Marshall as a freshman averaged 6 assists a game and Marshall was one of the best passers college ball saw in a real long time. And for a guy that cant shoot, he shot 41% from 3 in college while taking over 5 3pt shots a game and ya I know its just 2 games into the season but he is shooting 41% from 3 while taking 6 attempts a game.

Marshall didn't even start the whole year his freshman year lol. He averaged 9.8 APG as a sophomore when he played the same minutes as Lonzo just did. Lonzo can shoot idk whose saying he can't. He just can't get off the midrange imo but he has the deep ball as evidenced with his great percentage last year at UCLA. 7.7 APG for Lonzo is pretty good but honestly surprised that led the country. That's a historically low number to lead the nation (not taking away from Lonzo at all!). I think Ball will be good but don't see how he's a generational talent.

Post #206 » by **Duke4life831** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:56 pm

711takeover wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
711takeover wrote:
Do you know what generational talent is? The generational players in the game as of this moment are Lebron, KD, and Steph. Ball can't shoot for s h i t. His passing you could MAYBE make a case for being generational but even that's reaching. He averaged 7 APG in college. For reference, Kendall Marshall averaged nearly 10 APG at UNC.

I dont know about the generational talent part ( I did have Ball #2 in the draft for what its worth), but just a few things. Ball as a freshman led the NCAA in assists, he also broke UCLA's single season assist mark and broke the PAC-12 freshmen assist record. Kendall Marshall as a freshman averaged 6 assists a game and Marshall was one of the best passers college ball saw in a real long time. And for a guy that cant shoot, he shot 41% from 3 in college while taking over 5 3pt shots a game and ya I know its just 2 games into the season but he is shooting 41% from 3 while taking 6 attempts a game.

Marshall didn't even start the whole year his freshman year lol. He averaged 9.8 APG as a sophomore when he played the same minutes as Lonzo just did. Lonzo can shoot idk whose saying he can't. He just can't get off the midrange imo but he has the deep ball as evidenced with his great percentage last year at UCLA. 7.7 APG for Lonzo is pretty good but honestly surprised that led the country. That's a historically low number to lead the nation (not taking away from Lonzo at all!). I think Ball will be good but don't see how he's a generational talent.

Youre the one that said he cant shoot. This is a copy and paste from your post "Ball can't shoot for s h i t". Again like I said Kendall Marshall was probably the best passer college basketball saw since Bobby Hurley or Jason Kidd, so to not have as many assists as him doesnt really mean much. I agree that his mid range game is a massive weakness, Ive been saying that before he played at UCLA. But I also think he has potential there and he did make 2 nice mid range shots last night.

I think you and I agree on Ball, I also dont think hes going to be a generational talent. I am probably higher on him than you though.

711takeover · Post #207 » by **711takeover** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:02 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
711takeover wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
I dont know about the generational talent part ( I did have Ball #2 in the draft for what its worth), but just a few things. Ball as a freshman led the NCAA in assists, he also broke UCLA's single season assist mark and broke the PAC-12 freshmen assist record. Kendall Marshall as a freshman averaged 6 assists a game and Marshall was one of the best passers college ball saw in a real long time. And for a guy that cant shoot, he shot 41% from 3 in college while taking over 5 3pt shots a game and ya I know its just 2 games into the season but he is shooting 41% from 3 while taking 6 attempts a game.

Marshall didn't even start the whole year his freshman year lol. He averaged 9.8 APG as a sophomore when he played the same minutes as Lonzo just did. Lonzo can shoot idk whose saying he can't. He just can't get off the midrange imo but he has the deep ball as evidenced with his great percentage last year at UCLA. 7.7 APG for Lonzo is pretty good but honestly surprised that led the country. That's a historically low number to lead the nation (not taking away from Lonzo at all!). I think Ball will be good but don't see how he's a generational talent.

Youre the one that said he cant shoot. This is a copy and paste from your post "Ball can't shoot for s h i t". Again like I said Kendall Marshall was probably the best passer college basketball saw since Bobby Hurley or Jason Kidd, so to not have as many assists as him doesnt really mean much. I agree that his mid range game is a massive weakness, Ive been saying that before he played at UCLA. But I also think he has potential there and he did make 2 nice mid range shots last night.

I think you and I agree on Ball, I also dont think hes going to be a generational talent. I am probably higher on him than you though.

Yeah when I mean he can't shoot for s h i t, I mean that he can't get it off and can't shoot when contested. He hit like 5 mid range jumpers all year at UCLA. He's a good spot up shooter but most are. I think he'll average about 12-6-8 this year, while shooting something like 43% FG, 36.5% 3PT, 72% FT.

HoopsMalone · Post #208 » by **HoopsMalone** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:03 pm

I wasn't a Tatum proponent by any stretch but I am realizing he's certainly a bit better than I thought. I'm still not sure exactly how good he is, I think it's going to take a lot more games before anyone has a great idea. I was not high on Fultz either though so I never hated the trade.

I'm huge on Lonzo so in that regard the trade is a bit tainted for me, but I can see why they didn't select him as it might have created a bit of chaos.

Taking Lonzo out of the equation this has been a very good trade. Passing up a future HOF'er though might make this look bad to future generations but context matters a bit here.

Post #209 » by **Duke4life831** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:11 pm

711takeover wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
711takeover wrote:
Marshall didn't even start the whole year his freshman year lol. He averaged 9.8 APG as a sophomore when he played the same minutes as Lonzo just did. Lonzo can shoot idk whose saying he can't. He just can't get off the midrange imo but he has the deep ball as evidenced with his great percentage last year at UCLA. 7.7 APG for Lonzo is pretty good but honestly surprised that led the country. That's a historically low number to lead the nation (not taking away from Lonzo at all!). I think Ball will be good but don't see how he's a generational talent.

Youre the one that said he cant shoot. This is a copy and paste from your post "Ball can't shoot for s h i t". Again like I said Kendall Marshall was probably the best passer college basketball saw since Bobby Hurley or Jason Kidd, so to not have as many assists as him doesnt really mean much. I agree that his mid range game is a massive weakness, Ive been saying that before he played at UCLA. But I also think he has potential there and he did make 2 nice mid range shots last night.

I think you and I agree on Ball, I also dont think hes going to be a generational talent. I am probably higher on him than you though.

Yeah when I mean he can't shoot for s h i t, I mean that he can't get it off and can't shoot when contested. He hit like 5 mid range jumpers all year at UCLA. He's a good spot up shooter but most are. I think he'll average about 12-6-8 this year, while shooting something like 43% FG, 36.5% 3PT, 72% FT.

I agree with that 100%. Just when I read cant shoot I thought that meant overall, but ya his midrange needs a lot of work. I agree with your predictions for his averages, I think thats pretty spot on, I do think his FG% will be higher while his FT might be around 68-69%. I think his FG% will be a little higher because he tends to only shoot 3s or layups/dunks (he has a great shot IQ, never takes bad shots really).

I think right now all the teams in the lottery have to be feeling really good about their picks except for Philly and NY. I like Fultz but this changing his jumper and FT form while basically looking like he never wants to shoot jumpers (even in warmups) has to be somewhat worrisome especially when considering what they gave up to move up 2 spots to get him. Then with NY passing on DSJ just seemed so weird on draft night and if I was a NY fan I would feel a little worried right now seeing how DSJ looks and how Frank cant seem to stay healthy already. Not saying either player is going to be a bust, those to me are the only two fan bases I can see having some early season hot take second thoughts on their draft picks. This class was stacked.

rickrolled · Post #210 » by **rickrolled** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:14 pm

Whats Tatums upside and whom does he remind you of?

Bluewhale · Post #211 » by **Bluewhale** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:51 pm

Bigger PF version Paul Pierce or Mini Durant will be Tatum ceiling.

On the other hand, Ball will fit Celtics so well and we badly need another ball handler now

Bluewhale · Post #212 » by **Bluewhale** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:58 pm

Neither Fultz or Ball will be "busts" but neither will ever reach legitimate All Star status.

Ball will be a legitimate All Star soon. Very soon if not now.

Jaqua92 · Post #213 » by **Jaqua92** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:09 am

Bluewhale wrote:
Neither Fultz or Ball will be "busts" but neither will ever reach legitimate All Star status.

Ball will be a legitimate All Star soon. Very soon if not now.

As I said in another thread..we are being sensitized. Lonzo is already a star. He will be getting the calls. He is gonna be the face of the league. It was Bird and Magic, then it was Jordan, then Lebron, then Lonzo Ball. It's been pushed for a year almost now.

Reggie Miller had a Freudian slip too during the Rockets Warriors game. Said "tomorrow marks the first game of the Lonzo ball era *5 second pause* for the Lakers". Is what it is.. but he is gonna be a perrenial all star, an all nba player, and will probably be "regarded" as the best player out of the draft.

He did look good last night.

Chuck-Cheese · Post #214 » by **Chuck-Cheese** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:19 am

HoopsMalone wrote:I wasn't a Tatum proponent by any stretch but I am realizing he's certainly a bit better than I thought. I'm still not sure exactly how good he is, I think it's going to take a lot more games before anyone has a great idea. I was not high on Fultz either though so I never hated the trade.

I'm huge on Lonzo so in that regard the trade is a bit tainted for me, but I can see why they didn't select him as it might have created a bit of chaos.

Taking Lonzo out of the equation this has been a very good trade. Passing up a future HOF'er though might make this look bad to future generations but context matters a bit here.

who is the future HOF?

HoopsMalone · Post #215 » by **HoopsMalone** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:31 am

rickrolled wrote:Whats Tatums upside and whom does he remind you of?

That's actually a very difficult question for me to answer. He doesn't really remind me of any modern NBA player... I think that's part of the reason I didn't envision him being a very good NBA player because I just cant think of a good comparison for him.

NBAdraft.net says Allan Houston???? WTF? and Danny Granger.... Granger I can see a little bit... good size/athleticism but perimeter oriented...

ConstableGeneva · Post #216 » by **ConstableGeneva** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:57 am

Tatum has better shooting mechanics lol.

Read on Twitter

Post #217 » by **shackles10** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:19 am

ConstableGeneva wrote:Tatum has better shooting mechanics lol.

Read on Twitter

I’m disappointed the clip wasn’t long enough for us to hear the ensuing laughter. I’m not even sure that was good enough to be considered a brick. Not an air ball either. There are no words to describe that attempt.

baldur · Post #218 » by **baldur** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:27 am

ConstableGeneva wrote:Tatum has better shooting mechanics lol.

Read on Twitter

Wow this is one of the worst free throw shots in the history. Lol.

AlCelticFan · Post #219 » by **AlCelticFan** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:51 am

baldur wrote:
ConstableGeneva wrote:Tatum has better shooting mechanics lol.

Read on Twitter

Wow this is one of the worst free throw shots in the history. Lol.

Wth, is Fultz on drugs or something?

How does he get this bad so fast?

That Tatum trade man... it has the potential to be another Ainge blockbuster in hindsight.

rochrist · Post #220 » by **rochrist** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:53 am

Bluewhale wrote:
Neither Fultz or Ball will be "busts" but neither will ever reach legitimate All Star status.

Ball will be a legitimate All Star soon. Very soon if not now.

Ball will be an All-Star whether or not his play warrants it. The media could not /possibly/ be more in the bag for this kid. All year we're going to be regaled with triple-doubles that, when you look at the box score will be 4-25 (2-6 from 3), 10 assists and 10 rebounds.

Tatum vs. Fultz: What do you think now?