Political Roundtable Part XV

[cammac]

SD20 has been unable to tell me what a American is which he boasts about and that what Canada does couldn't possibly be good for America.

In one respect he is absolutely correct there isn't a American or even a typical American it is a country that is fractured without a common vision of what to do internally and externally as a nation. Every country has divides politically and certainly Canada does we came within 1% of Quebec leaving the country. Today that movement would be lucky to get 15% in the province. Our political system the politicians run from moderate Collins type Republicans to Sanders Socialists.

This forum is quite diverse in most parts with 2 exceptions Nate & SD20 I can see the points made and agree with many from all spectrum's and that's what political dialogue is all about. But when you see someone like Roy Moore go to Capital Hill and be welcomed by other Senator's it makes me puke. The man is nothing but a Nazi and what he spouts might have been the norm in 50's in the south but is a abomination in today's society. The worst thing is that this type of slime will likely get elected " God Bless America".

[Pointgod]

I think there were multiple reasons that Trump won - or looking at it a different way - why Hillary lost.

I think it started with Hillary's communication and the DNC. A large segment of the population was angry - felt left behind. Bill Clinton, Bush and Obama captured their imagination. Hillary didn't and Trump did (MAGA).

The Trump vote also was an act of class rebellion, a working class revolt against know-it-all elites - like Hillary.

I think the Russians and their propaganda machine (which has been trying for decades to sway elections) moved the needle.

The drifting in disparity of wages should have been a huge benefit to Hillary - but she lost issue to Trump as well.

And then pile onto all those issues - the race/sex issue. Sometimes we forget that Hillary is a female.

@Pointgod - I do think that the left leaning media is still in denial on most of these issues - and that is troubling.

I don't disagree with any of your points that these all contributed to Hillary losing. For all intensive purposes Trump winning was an absolute fluke. It came down to 78000 votes in 3 states and 3 million more people voted for Hillary. So instead of looking at why Hillary lost I think it makes more sense to look at what motivates Trump voters.

Your post above points to an underlying issue, but I have to point out that the all economic issues felt by Trump voters is felt by minority voters as well but somehow they didn't want to put bigot in the whitehouse or blow up a whole country. Why do you think that is? My argument is that Trump used white identity politics to con people into believing he could restore some sense of pride. Hate crimes are up, you have white supremacists marching/killing people directly speaking to Trump. There is no way you'd have this type of climate with a President Bush, Cruz or Kasich.

I recommend reading this article by Ta-Nehisi Coates. Great read that doesn't pull any punches.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/

[Pointgod]

yeah. I'll stick with Fox. they are willing to tell me the truth.

Honestly he reads like a Daily Show parody of what a right winger would look like lol

[Pointgod]

SD20 has been unable to tell me what a American is which he boasts about and that what Canada does couldn't possibly be good for America.

In one respect he is absolutely correct there isn't a American or even a typical American it is a country that is fractured without a common vision of what to do internally and externally as a nation. Every country has divides politically and certainly Canada does we came within 1% of Quebec leaving the country. Today that movement would be lucky to get 15% in the province. Our political system the politicians run from moderate Collins type Republicans to Sanders Socialists.

This forum is quite diverse in most parts with 2 exceptions Nate & SD20 I can see the points made and agree with many from all spectrum's and that's what political dialogue is all about. But when you see someone like Roy Moore go to Capital Hill and be welcomed by other Senator's it makes me puke. The man is nothing but a Nazi and what he spouts might have been the norm in 50's in the south but is a abomination in today's society. The worst thing is that this type of slime will likely get elected " God Bless America".

I want SD20 to answer why he supports scumbags like Roy Moore and Steve Bannon. Then show him direct quotes from them and still see if he supports them.

From an outside perspective I've come to appreciate how so many states in America are diverse from each other, almost like 50 separate countries. It makes getting a consensus on a lot of issues difficult however I don't see how issues like healthcare for all, access to education for all and civil rights can't be achieved on a national level. It just requires Americans to take their heads out of their asses.

[DCZards]

You basically just confirmed what most of us already suspected: For all intents and purposes, you're a Republican/conservative.

It puts your parroting of GOP talking points in proper context.

When I asked you what your go-to source(s) for news was you never really answered the question.

I kinda expected FOX was one of them just because many of your talking points are straight out of the FOX/GOP playbook.

Even the language you use when describing Democrats, that doesn't come from from a former member of the party.

You link to sites like the National Review, listen to Hannity etc.

You're a partisan like most of us...and that's okay.

You can admit it.

Actually, I've come to believe that SD20 is MORE partisan than most of us.

He claims to have voted for Obama and Sanders, but now appears to be head over heels in love with Trump. I don't get it. Either SD20 is lying about his support for Obama/Sanders or he has absolutely no core principals and values, which would explain why it was so easy for him to make the switch to Trump.

[cammac]

While religion is an important part of American politics especially with the born again community it is less in Canada and that does mean religion is dying in Canada just changing. Its a good read and again shows a different fabric of the 2 countries that live side by side who has similarities but differences as well.

"When his book Unknown Gods was published 22 years ago, University of Lethbridge sociologist and pollster Reginald Bibby painted a rather dreary picture of where Canada’s churches would be by about 2015. Congregations would be older, birth rates wouldn’t keep up with the number of folks who were dying off, and all the while many children weren’t being socialized into a faith. It was a linear decline, plain and simple. The writing was on the wall. “Even with the Toronto Maple Leafs, there is hope for a better next year,” he says in an interview. “Whereas with religion, it looked pretty much over.”

When 2015 finally came around, Bibby decided to revisit his book and check on his predictions. He discovered that for many religious groups, he was quite off-target. Catholics, for example, are building new churches in some parts of the country. Evangelicals increased their total numbers as Canada’s population grew. The same goes for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs. He had accurately forecasted a long, drawn-out decline for the United Church of Canada and the Anglican Church. But some religions were getting an infusion of new blood."
http://www.macleans.ca/society/life/what-canadians-really-believe/

To put in context 10% of Canadians are born again versus 25% in the USA

"Over the past seven years, evangelicals have lost less than 1 percent of their share of the population, holding steady at about 1 in 4 American adults (25.4% in 2014, vs. 26.3% in 2007) and preserving their status as the nation’s largest religious group."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2015/may/pew-evangelicals-stay-strong-us-religious-landscape-study.html

[dckingsfan]

I don't disagree with any of your points that these all contributed to Hillary losing. For all intensive purposes Trump winning was an absolute fluke. It came down to 78000 votes in 3 states and 3 million more people voted for Hillary. So instead of looking at why Hillary lost I think it makes more sense to look at what motivates Trump voters.

But isn't that the point? Hillary (and the DNC) lost the election - Trump didn't win the election.

I think if you take a step back - the rest is just obfuscation.

And yes - Trump used identity politics (racist) - but so did Hillary - and that was a huge strategic mistake and the beginning of the end for her campaign.

Again my point - and this has to sting. It wasn't about Trump - it was about the failure of Hillary and the DNC's messaging.

I guess one could also say - it was about the failure of the RNC to put forward a meaningful candidate - but their party is being demolished - so there is that.

[dckingsfan]

@pointgod - With regard to Ta-Nehisi Coates - I think he is right in many ways. I just think he is way off on why Trump is the President. The article is a solid read - as is his book. Although, I think he is so singularly focused on race that he often misses other aspects of modern life and its impacts on politics. My two cents.

[stilldropin20]

SD20 has been unable to tell me what a American is which he boasts about and that what Canada does couldn't possibly be good for America.

In one respect he is absolutely correct there isn't a American or even a typical American it is a country that is fractured without a common vision of what to do internally and externally as a nation. Every country has divides politically and certainly Canada does we came within 1% of Quebec leaving the country. Today that movement would be lucky to get 15% in the province. Our political system the politicians run from moderate Collins type Republicans to Sanders Socialists.

This forum is quite diverse in most parts with 2 exceptions Nate & SD20 I can see the points made and agree with many from all spectrum's and that's what political dialogue is all about. But when you see someone like Roy Moore go to Capital Hill and be welcomed by other Senator's it makes me puke. The man is nothing but a Nazi and what he spouts might have been the norm in 50's in the south but is a abomination in today's society. The worst thing is that this type of slime will likely get elected " God Bless America".

I want SD20 to answer why he supports scumbags like Roy Moore and Steve Bannon. Then show him direct quotes from them and still see if he supports them.

From an outside perspective I've come to appreciate how so many states in America are diverse from each other, almost like 50 separate countries. It makes getting a consensus on a lot of issues difficult however I don't see how issues like healthcare for all, access to education for all and civil rights can't be achieved on a national level. It just requires Americans to take their heads out of their asses.

i dont support roy moore. I admit i dont know much about him. But what i know, i dont like. i dont trust. i dont believe belongs in politics. i honestly dont read breitbart. honestly, ive never clicked their site. Ive read stuff quoted from there but its just not my brand of politics either. and I do understand that trump takes some queues from bannon.

But I believe both Moore and Bannon exist as a counter punch. a counter punch to the far left. the left and right both have issues. IMO, BOTH of them have their heads up their own butts so much so that they need each other to counter each other out. both dangerous. both full of crap. kind of like this message board. the left comes with its crap and Nate comes with his. SD20 is in the middle. you guys just lean so far left on everything that you cant see it though. and thats ok with SD20. he's a big a boy. and been around a block or 2.

this past election the left fell asleep at the wheel. called half the country deplorable. they just doesn't work. and you guys are doubling, tripling down on it. even in this message board you guys are convinced anyone that opposes you is a racists. its complete crap. but mostly just silly and a losing proposition. i get it though. you're still butthurt that you lost. dismissing marginalizing half the country though? this philosophy where when you disagree with people you lable them as racists, mysogynist, etc. its devolved into the worst brand of politics and its not working anymore. Bannon exists as a counter to that. and Bannon's brand of politics are equally dangerous in my opinion.

But more importantly you are touching on something Ive been recommending for years. Basically city states and then more power back to the states. we need to redraw the lines on the map in the USA. where cities like DC, chicago, NYC, LA are their own state. i think it will work.

1. its clear that the internet has good and bad. in that communicating with each other is suppose to be a good thing. But at this point in time, most humans are just are NOT good at communicating their feelings nor their logic. so they devolve conversations. For me though the internet is a great tool to communicate.

2. if big cities are their own state. stuff like sanctuary cities makes more sense. I dont agree with it but at least it makes more sense. and states should have more power in how they want to conduct themselves. as should small towns.

3. IMO, the current level of divisiveness is being driven mostly by "news" and media. but the vitriol in these pages from you guys against conservatives is still quite alarming. at some point i just have to stop blaming the media and put the blame where it might better belong. on you guys are your divisive vitriol. but its clear to me now after 80 pages in this thread of trying to cross that divide between right and left that the divide is only getting significantly worse. and literally worse by the day. I honestly had no idea in my own bubble of life that there was this massive divide amongst americans. I'm fascinated and I'm a little scared TBH. had I known that you guys feel the way you do about this country, the office of the presidency, the disdain most of you guys have, it's quite eye opening.

4. Frankly? i'm concerned. I wasn't. but now i am. you guys kinda win. i guess. people just see things very differently. always have always will. i still see good and bad on both left and right politics but this thread has me leaning with the good old fashioned working class types like the 5000 police officers and firefighters that live on the south side with me. at least 60% of which are black people. and we all support trump's agenda. nearly to a man. only a few white guys disagree. which is odd. Now i also have some very liberal friends. Northwestern types. and they are very liberal. but we all get along. we respect each others viewpoints. So i just dont know how to feel. maybe good ol fashioned midwestern folks on the south side of chicago just get along with each other better than a more divided area like DC/Virginia? Could be, brothers? could be?

[I_Like_Dirt]

But isn't that the point? Hillary (and the DNC) lost the election - Trump didn't win the election.

I think if you take a step back - the rest is just obfuscation.

And yes - Trump used identity politics - but so did Hillary - and that was a huge strategic mistake and the beginning of the end for her campaign.

I used to think Hillary's campaign made some strategic mistakes, but I'm not all that sure about it anymore. I don't think Hillary was an ideal candidate simply because voters are looking for someone to rally around, and the concept of rallying around an older woman isn't something North American society is really willing to do. And Hillary really isn't the rallying kind. It always seems kind of forced from her, and people can tell. She has flaws, but honestly, I don't see that as one of them, but it's arguably the most crucial flaw she has as a presidential candidate.

As for identity politics, it's kind of tough. I'm not at all convinced that any people who were willing to hold their nose and vote for Trump would have voted for Hillary no matter her campaign. Although if I'm wrong about that, then the whole Russia thing takes on an entirely new meaning. Hillary simply didn't get the wave of support that Obama did. Obama was absolutely someone who could rally and inspire people and he did that again and again. Without that ability, Hillary was always going to be fighting a tougher battle than she otherwise might have been.

The reality, though, is that the lines of identity politics were drawn well prior to either candidate being named. Trump simply exploited them more successfully. The amount of resentment towards women, minorities, etc. is absolutely obvious at this point and it precedes both candidates. And it's far easier to blame faceless "bankers" and women, minorities, etc. than it is to blame the technology you use everyday or the greedy braggarts turning democracy increasingly into a large scale pyramid scheme.

[stilldropin20]

SD20 has been unable to tell me what a American is which he boasts about and that what Canada does couldn't possibly be good for America.

In one respect he is absolutely correct there isn't a American or even a typical American it is a country that is fractured without a common vision of what to do internally and externally as a nation. Every country has divides politically and certainly Canada does we came within 1% of Quebec leaving the country. Today that movement would be lucky to get 15% in the province. Our political system the politicians run from moderate Collins type Republicans to Sanders Socialists.

This forum is quite diverse in most parts with 2 exceptions Nate & SD20 I can see the points made and agree with many from all spectrum's and that's what political dialogue is all about. But when you see someone like Roy Moore go to Capital Hill and be welcomed by other Senator's it makes me puke. The man is nothing but a Nazi and what he spouts might have been the norm in 50's in the south but is a abomination in today's society. The worst thing is that this type of slime will likely get elected " God Bless America".

so your "time off" :lol consisted of a 2 hour nap??

ive answered your question twice. an american is every US citizen. everyone. despite what CNN and the fools who follow their agenda believe and will tell you. americans actually care about each other. the problem is that americans might be the most selfish people on planet earth. honestly. they(we) are. and we are self centered. so politics are nothing more than an extension of that extreme selfish nature of americans. this is how we argue for our own self interests. politics. sad. i know. I've attempted to get around that in these pages and no one is willing to negotiate. they are dead set on their own set of values and political ethos that benefits them most. and fankly most american are quite stupid. they dont even know what is actually "good" for them. they believe the lying ruling class that has a system rigged for themselves. americans are so damn gullible and stupid. sad. so sad. But they are americans. i still got their back. i still stood the watch for their freedom. thats just how we roll.

[stilldropin20]

yeah. I'll stick with Fox. they are willing to tell me the truth.

Honestly he reads like a Daily Show parody of what a right winger would look like lol

ju luhv eet mahn!!! admeet eet!!

[stilldropin20]

So once again the left has completely devolved the entire conversation into: racist racist racist

That's just clown talk. I mean straight up clowning. You cannot stoop to a more ridiculous level of clown talk. big red shoes. big Bozo nose. clown talk.

Sent from my SM-N920T using RealGM mobile app

There was an actual Nazi rally in Charlottesville wherein someone was run over by a car in an act of terrorism. You're not fooling anyone.

there are something like 200k registered white supremacists. like .01% of the country. in statistics we call something like that standard deviation.

and the day we make a law that makes it illegal to be any kind of supremacist be it white, black, brown, age, economic, relgious, any type at all. I fully support that law. and so would at least 90% of americans or more. oh wait. we already have that law!! at least my people would support it. my southsiders. we aint as divided as you guys. we got probs for sure. but our probs are economic. lack of jobs. income inequality which we are working on. we need jobs back. and trump promised us jobs. hoping he delivers. unimployment is way down though from where it was. so so far so good on the trump watch.

IMO, you are making a mountain out of something smaller than a mole hill. but things are different in DC area and in the south. Chicago. is more of a city of love. tough love at times. but love for sure.

[cammac]

SD20 has been unable to tell me what a American is which he boasts about and that what Canada does couldn't possibly be good for America.

In one respect he is absolutely correct there isn't a American or even a typical American it is a country that is fractured without a common vision of what to do internally and externally as a nation. Every country has divides politically and certainly Canada does we came within 1% of Quebec leaving the country. Today that movement would be lucky to get 15% in the province. Our political system the politicians run from moderate Collins type Republicans to Sanders Socialists.

This forum is quite diverse in most parts with 2 exceptions Nate & SD20 I can see the points made and agree with many from all spectrum's and that's what political dialogue is all about. But when you see someone like Roy Moore go to Capital Hill and be welcomed by other Senator's it makes me puke. The man is nothing but a Nazi and what he spouts might have been the norm in 50's in the south but is a abomination in today's society. The worst thing is that this type of slime will likely get elected " God Bless America".

so your "time off" :lol consisted of a 2 hou
ive answered your question twice. an american is every US citizen. everyone. despite what CNN and the fools who follow their agenda believe and will tell you. americans actually care about each other. the problem is that americans might be the most selfish people on planet earth. honestly. they(we) are. and we are self centered. so politics are nothing more than an extension of that extreme selfish nature of americans. this is how we argue for our own self interests. politics. sad. i know. I've attempted to get around that in these pages and no one is willing to negotiate. they are dead set on their own set of values and political ethos that benefits them most. and fankly most american are quite stupid. they dont even know what is actually "good" for them. they believe the lying ruling class that has a system rigged for themselves. americans are so damn gullible and stupid. sad. so sad. But they are americans. i still got their back. i still stood the watch for their freedom. thats just how we roll.

Well a final burst before a 1 month hiatus.
Well I must say you paint a even darker picture than I could would paint classifying Americans as lemming headed to Dante's Inferno. When I taught for free in a university in Shandong Province I was asked by a student what Canadians thought of Americans and if there was a conflict between the USA and China where would Canada side.

I answered that Canada and the USA have been neighbours for over 200 years and we haven't had a major conflict since 1814 and we think of each others as brothers. That what ever our differences which are many we would side with the US. On what Canadians think of Americans it's more like the USA is the big brothers somewhat of a school yard bully and many times acts on impulse rather than thinking things through. The big brothers are stubborn and also tend to fight among themselves rather than getting things done. Canadians as the little brothers find the squabbles humorous but somewhat alarming that they can't ever agree. While we agree our big brothers overall have a good heart they need to be more outwardly thinking and utilize there grey matter more peacefully.

[dobrojim]

Great read on the myth of Robert E Lee

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

Assuming this is accurate and I can't say I went to primary sources and checked, Lee was 'well below average' (being kind)
in his philosophies wrt race, among other issues, for his time.

[Ruzious]

But I believe both Moore and Bannon exist as a counter punch. a counter punch to the far left. the left and right both have issues. IMO, BOTH of them have their heads up their own butts so much so that they need each other to counter each other out. both dangerous. both full of crap. kind of like this message board. the left comes with its crap and Nate comes with his. SD20 is in the middle. you guys just lean so far left on everything that you cant see it though. and thats ok with SD20. he's a big a boy. and been around a block or 2.

this past election the left fell asleep at the wheel. called half the country deplorable. they just doesn't work. and you guys are doubling, tripling down on it. even in this message board you guys are convinced anyone that opposes you is a racists. its complete crap. but mostly just silly and a losing proposition. i get it though. you're still butthurt that you lost. dismissing marginalizing half the country though? this philosophy where when you disagree with people you lable them as racists, mysogynist, etc. its devolved into the worst brand of politics and its not working anymore. Bannon exists as a counter to that. and Bannon's brand of politics are equally dangerous in my opinion.

You voted far left - Sanders is far left. Everyone but you seems to understand that. I didn't vote for Sanders because I agree with your comments about the far left being dangerous. You were far left before you instantly switched to far right. Rationalizing by saying your Independent doesn't change that. When you criticise the far left you're criticising what you were a year ago.

I also agree that Hillary was extremely stupid to call Trump's goobers deplorables. (Actually, goobers would have been better. ) I think it was the single biggest factor in her losing - much like Mitt Romney's 47% comment.

When liberals accuse specific republicans and specific groups of repubs for being racist, that does NOT mean liberals are calling all repubs racist. I'm saying it very clearly so you can't twist it - NOT ALL REPUBLICANS ARE RACISTS. In fact, a lot of them admit they f'd up by voting for him. It's too little too late, but I respect their honesty. Honesty goes a long way.

[stilldropin20]

yeah. I'll stick with Fox. they are willing to tell me the truth.

At last!

You basically just confirmed what most of us already suspected: For all intents and purposes, you're a Republican/conservative.

It puts your parroting of GOP talking points in proper context.

When I asked you what your go-to source(s) for news was you never really answered the question.

I kinda expected FOX was one of them just because many of your talking points are straight out of the FOX/GOP playbook.

Even the language you use when describing Democrats, that doesn't come from from a former member of the party.

You link to sites like the National Review, listen to Hannity etc.

You're a partisan like most of us...and that's okay.

You can admit it.

im partisan when it comes to military. i want a massively strong military.

and i'm partisan when it comes to taxes. i want massive tax increases on the wealthy. I would hit the entire universe with a 100% tax on every single dollar over $20 million tomorrow. and every corporation with with a 100% tax with every dollar over $200 Million.

i would use that military to collect on those taxes.

I would use that money for free health care and free college. and I would redistribute the rest to the poor and working class to encourage growth and happiness and equality.

thats what i would do right now if i had a magic button.

thats about as far left as Any person can lean? right? but the left is a bunch of frickin pissboy wimps.nothing more than lip service whiners they dont want to actually do that. they play around with complete non needle moving self serving bull crap.

so since we are not going to move the needle to actually help then I practice my own brand of politics that fits neither the molds of the right or the left.

[DCZards]

But isn't that the point? Hillary (and the DNC) lost the election - Trump didn't win the election.

I think if you take a step back - the rest is just obfuscation.

And yes - Trump used identity politics (racist) - but so did Hillary - and that was a huge strategic mistake and the beginning of the end for her campaign.

Again my point - and this has to sting. It wasn't about Trump - it was about the failure of Hillary and the DNC's messaging.

I guess one could also say - it was about the failure of the RNC to put forward a meaningful candidate - but their party is being demolished - so there is that.

I'm not so sure that the problem was Hillary's and the DNC's messaging. Clinton's message did, after all, earn her 3 million more votes than Donald T.

I think the chief failure of Hillary and the DNC was not making sure their message was being heard in states like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan--three traditionally blue states that essentially decided the election by a handful of votes. Unfortunately, HRC took those states and voters for granted and only made some 11th hour trips to those states. But it was too little, too late.

I recall Michael Moore imploring the Clinton campaign early on to spend more time in his home state of Michigan where Trump's nonsense about bringing back manufacturing jobs and putting minorities (particularly immigrants) back in their place was being eaten up by (mostly) white folks desperate for jobs, hope, change...and a return to the good old days that Trump was promising.

HRC's message was the right one, imo, but it's hard to beat a candidate who will say/lie and promise anything (and use race-baiting) to win votes.

[cammac]

Great read on the myth of Robert E Lee

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

Assuming this is accurate and I can't say I went to primary sources and checked, Lee was 'well below average' (being kind)
in his philosophies wrt race, among other issues, for his time.

I know how perceptions change when I was 1st in China my wife & were walking in downtown Shenzhen and there was a huge billboard in a very prominent place. My wife asked me if I knew who the man was? I said yes Deng Xiaoping and she was surprised that knew. She asked what I knew about him and said he was the butcher of Tienanmen Square and regarded poorly in the West. Apricot said in China he is a hero and the man who was responsible to bringing China prosperity. Shenzhen is the symbol of this from a swampy rural place into a metropolis of 16 million people in 30 years. It was the place the capitalism started in China as the 1st free economic zone in China.

In both cases we were right Deng Xiaoping was the butcher of Tienanmen Square but also the architect of modern China. He also realized that Tienanmen Square could no happen again because of the likelihood of the Army turning against the "Party". The modern China emerged to become the savior of the "Party". Everything is a matter of perception what matters is knowing all the facts.

[Pointgod]

I don't disagree with any of your points that these all contributed to Hillary losing. For all intensive purposes Trump winning was an absolute fluke. It came down to 78000 votes in 3 states and 3 million more people voted for Hillary. So instead of looking at why Hillary lost I think it makes more sense to look at what motivates Trump voters.

But isn't that the point? Hillary (and the DNC) lost the election - Trump didn't win the election.

I think if you take a step back - the rest is just obfuscation.

And yes - Trump used identity politics (racist) - but so did Hillary - and that was a huge strategic mistake and the beginning of the end for her campaign.

Again my point - and this has to sting. It wasn't about Trump - it was about the failure of Hillary and the DNC's messaging.

I guess one could also say - it was about the failure of the RNC to put forward a meaningful candidate - but their party is being demolished - so there is that.

I won't disagree with you that Hillary didn't have a clear message/catchy slogan but she was very clear in her policies and had detailed outlines. The cult of personality is too strong in politics to where a vapid empty nutsack like Trump could become president.

On your point about Hillary playing to identity politics I'd like to first ask what your definition of identity politics is. Just to prove that it's not a gotcha question my definition of identity politics is directly addressing the issues specific issues of social groups. However because the Democrats are essentially under a coalition, this isn't identity politics as much as addressing the issues of your constituents. Economics may not matter as much to a black mother that is worried about her teenage son getting shot by police. Acknowledging racism or sexism and is not an implication on white people or men in particular anymore than acknowledging income equality is blaming all of the poor's problems on people making more than 6 figures.

This is where I see the difference with Trump. He truly played on white identity and blaming Mexicans, immigrants etc for the economic situation of his constituents. Trump said banning Muslims, deporting Mexicans and limiting immigration would make America prosper. He correctly addressed the some problems but lied about the solutions. I see this is actual identity politics where others have to lose for white people to gain. Had he stuck with his economic argument without the bullhorn of racism, I could see a reasonable argument about why people voted for him.