2018 NBA Draft Talk

[og15]

Like I said on the GB, sadly even if we suck, this is a sucky 33-35 win team, not a sucky 25 win team, which means in terms of record, the Clippers would be more likely to get a late lottery pick than any of those top guys. It's not really fun to watch a 35 win team that plays no defense and does iso ball all season while hoping for a mid to late lottery pick.

[Quake Griffin]

Like I said on the GB, sadly even if we suck, this is a sucky 33-35 win team, not a sucky 25 win team, which means in terms of record, the Clippers would be more likely to get a late lottery pick than any of those top guys. It's not really fun to watch a 35 win team that plays no defense and does iso ball all season while hoping for a mid to late lottery pick.

There’s a remedy for that though.


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[og15]

Like I said on the GB, sadly even if we suck, this is a sucky 33-35 win team, not a sucky 25 win team, which means in terms of record, the Clippers would be more likely to get a late lottery pick than any of those top guys. It's not really fun to watch a 35 win team that plays no defense and does iso ball all season while hoping for a mid to late lottery pick.

There’s a remedy for that though.


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Ballmer, Frank, West and Doc all aren't interested in tanking, so is there really a remedy?

Also have we already fallen so far from 45-50 win team and MVP Blake?

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1624922

...unless you mean fire Doc, and that is definitely an option.

[wco81]

Plus if you tank too much, how attractive is the team as a FA destination after this season?

Doubtful there's a player in the draft which would entice Lebron or PG13 to sign with the Clippers if they have a poor enough season to get such a high pick.

[Quake Griffin]

Isn’t much of an FA destination with things as they are now.

Tank.


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[wassuphomeboy]

Tanking doesn't guarantee anything

Also, despite Jerry West's presence on the front office, there has been a clear lack of purpose or direction to the team's moves lately

Not going far enough in the playoffs? Trade our best player!

Trading our best player isn't working out? Blow it up!

Blowing it up not working out? ....

(Though, at this stage, we might not even have a choice. Wonderful)

Fun fact: The Wolves haven't even made the playoffs ONCE since they traded KG. They look well on their way to making it this year, but fourteen years later. It's a long time to wait.

[TucsonClip]

I hvent read this thread, and I love Doncic, but Ayton is the guy.

Hes legitimately the most talented player I have ever seen in Tucson. Im doing in-depth game writeups for UA site, so thats where all my time has gone, but id move DJ and whatever else it took for him today if I could.

Most in the national media are sleeping on him, because they havent seen him play yet. He is an absolute monster. Size length, athleticism, post moves, dominant rebounder, really good passer, shot blocker, and once he adjusts his release point, hes going to space out to the three point line in time. Hes a unicorn in the making.

[og15]

Tanking doesn't guarantee anything

Also, despite Jerry West's presence on the front office, there has been a clear lack of purpose or direction to the team's moves lately

Not going far enough in the playoffs? Trade our best player!

Trading our best player isn't working out? Blow it up!

Blowing it up not working out? ....

(Though, at this stage, we might not even have a choice. Wonderful)

Fun fact: The Wolves haven't even made the playoffs ONCE since they traded KG. They look well on their way to making it this year, but fourteen years later. It's a long time to wait.

Why do you make it seem like this was optional? That's not what happened, the Clippers wanted him to stay, they didn't have a choice. Just like people got too excited and jumped to way too early conclusions after 4-0, let's also not jump to conclusions too quickly now. Teams have started 5-8 before and finished a lot better, let's not be so reactionary. Let's see what it looks like after 20 games and after 30 games before talking about tanking and all this kind of stuff.

[nickhx2]

delusional version of history

[ejftw]

I hvent read this thread, and I love Doncic, but Ayton is the guy.

Hes legitimately the most talented player I have ever seen in Tucson. Im doing in-depth game writeups for UA site, so thats where all my time has gone, but id move DJ and whatever else it took for him today if I could.

Most in the national media are sleeping on him, because they havent seen him play yet. He is an absolute monster. Size length, athleticism, post moves, dominant rebounder, really good passer, shot blocker, and once he adjusts his release point, hes going to space out to the three point line in time. Hes a unicorn in the making.

Absolutely agree. Ayton is the best guy from this draft without much question.

[og15]

New goal for the season is to at least win the matchups vs Houston. We already lost to Philly, we'll see about the next one. Can the tank crew at least be in support of that?

[wassuphomeboy]

Tanking doesn't guarantee anything

Also, despite Jerry West's presence on the front office, there has been a clear lack of purpose or direction to the team's moves lately

Not going far enough in the playoffs? Trade our best player!

Trading our best player isn't working out? Blow it up!

Blowing it up not working out? ....

(Though, at this stage, we might not even have a choice. Wonderful)

Fun fact: The Wolves haven't even made the playoffs ONCE since they traded KG. They look well on their way to making it this year, but fourteen years later. It's a long time to wait.

Why do you make it seem like this was optional? That's not what happened, the Clippers wanted him to stay, they didn't have a choice. Just like people got too excited and jumped to way too early conclusions after 4-0, let's also not jump to conclusions too quickly now. Teams have started 5-8 before and finished a lot better, let's not be so reactionary. Let's see what it looks like after 20 games and after 30 games before talking about tanking and all this kind of stuff.

I begrudgingly realize that by this summer, maybe things had reached a point of no return with CP3, and maybe there were no other choices.

My point was that CP3 was on the team for six full seasons before this summer, and in those six years, there were plenty of chances for the team to build a contender around him, chances that need to be successfully taken next time a superstar lands on our team if the eventual goal is to win a title. THOSE were the real opportunities to keep CP3 around, and by extension, the team's chances at contending. I care more about our fans not noticing these instances than calling me "delusional" for pointing them out.

I will try and keep the faith for now. I will also note that the Milos and Bev injuries are a significant factor, as we have seen before unfortunately, and hopefully things get better on that end soon.

[esqtvd]

FTR, the Sixers are actually on The Process 2.0. Process 1.0 was a pretty complete suckburger: Michael Carter-Williams, Okafor, Noel Noelle, KJ Daniels and Jerami Grant--a complete failure. And if Embiid turns out to be a Greg Oden, 2.0 is gonna fall way short too.

Even tanking isn't as easy as it looks.

[MartinToVaught]

My point was that CP3 was on the team for six full seasons before this summer, and in those six years, there were plenty of chances for the team to build a contender around him, chances that need to be successfully taken next time a superstar lands on our team if the eventual goal is to win a title. THOSE were the real opportunities to keep CP3 around, and by extension, the team's chances at contending. I care more about our fans not noticing these instances than calling me "delusional" for pointing them out.

Unfortunately, we spent those seasons catering to CP3's every demand instead of making the right choices to build a real contender. And he still left and blamed the organization on his way out, so it was all rather pointless.

[MartinToVaught]

FTR, the Sixers are actually on The Process 2.0. Process 1.0 was a pretty complete suckburger: Michael Carter-Williams, Okafor, Noel Noelle, KJ Daniels and Jerami Grant--a complete failure. And if Embiid turns out to be a Greg Oden, 2.0 is gonna fall way short too.

Even tanking isn't as easy as it looks.

MCW didn't pan out like people hoped, but he did win Rookie of the Year and Hinkie was able to parlay that into fleecing the Suns in a trade for him. KJ McDaniels and Jerami Grant were second-round picks, not guys they were tanking for.

That leaves Noel and Okafor as Hinkie's only major mistakes - but no GM is ever going to bat 1000 with their draft picks. The point of The Process was to stockpile as many picks and assets as possible so that there's more margin for error and one or two mistakes doesn't destroy the whole rebuild. Hinkie was never pretending to be some drafting genius, he was simply working every angle to rebuild the team from the horrible shape it was in when they hired him.

[esqtvd]

well MCW still sucks, as do Noel and Okafor
The Process 1.0 failed
the point is that the Sixers fans endured 37-199 in 3 years of utter and embarrassing misery--without even the fun of watching a young team grow up

and The Process 2.0 still hangs on Embiid's durabilty, which is a wing and a prayer [and a very big right foot]

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/10/09/joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-148-million-contract-extension

Embiid might average 70 games played per year over the course of his new deal. He might average 50 or 30. He might be beset by a series of minor injuries that never require surgery. He might need surgery that alters his athleticism in a way that he’s so far managed to avoid. His minutes might need to be managed for the duration of his contract. He might be free to play 35+ minutes and log both ends of back-to-backs. He might look like an All-NBA guy one night and a step slow the next. He might play two great years and then fade. He might lead the first post-Warriors dynasty and make the Hall of Fame. He might have a less productive career than Greg Oden.

After seeing Embiid suffer multiple season-ending injuries and play just 31 games through three seasons, that entire range remains on the table.

Oh, and like Zo Ball, this year's #1 Fultz can't shoot either and doesn't even have Ball's mad ballhandling skills
hey, Sixers are my hometown team and the worst is over and I hope for the best
but no, it wasn't worth it

[og15]

Tanking doesn't guarantee anything

Also, despite Jerry West's presence on the front office, there has been a clear lack of purpose or direction to the team's moves lately

Not going far enough in the playoffs? Trade our best player!

Trading our best player isn't working out? Blow it up!

Blowing it up not working out? ....

(Though, at this stage, we might not even have a choice. Wonderful)

Fun fact: The Wolves haven't even made the playoffs ONCE since they traded KG. They look well on their way to making it this year, but fourteen years later. It's a long time to wait.

Why do you make it seem like this was optional? That's not what happened, the Clippers wanted him to stay, they didn't have a choice. Just like people got too excited and jumped to way too early conclusions after 4-0, let's also not jump to conclusions too quickly now. Teams have started 5-8 before and finished a lot better, let's not be so reactionary. Let's see what it looks like after 20 games and after 30 games before talking about tanking and all this kind of stuff.

I begrudgingly realize that by this summer, maybe things had reached a point of no return with CP3, and maybe there were no other choices.

My point was that CP3 was on the team for six full seasons before this summer, and in those six years, there were plenty of chances for the team to build a contender around him, chances that need to be successfully taken next time a superstar lands on our team if the eventual goal is to win a title. THOSE were the real opportunities to keep CP3 around, and by extension, the team's chances at contending. I care more about our fans not noticing these instances than calling me "delusional" for pointing them out.

I will try and keep the faith for now. I will also note that the Milos and Bev injuries are a significant factor, as we have seen before unfortunately, and hopefully things get better on that end soon.

First thing is that building a true contender is a lot more difficult than people make it out to be. Second is that Sterling set us back, so we were already playing catch up, then Doc set us back a bit, so we were playing even more catch up. Windows are small in the NBA without the LeBron's of the league on your team, so if you're playing double catch up, you will miss your window as a new team emerges (GS). We had a severely understaffed front office, and the other teams building contenders had a ton more resources put into management, that's a big deal. The Houston series if we peel it all back was basically decided by the lack of 1-2 bench level players to rest guys, a wing and a big, we're talking about average level players.

The Sterling prelude set up the situation for Doc to be put in and remain in a position he shouldn't have had, while still being severely understaffed. The front office failed all the players, not just Paul, but Griffin and Redick and Jordan. Paul and Griffin also "failed" us with their injuries, but I'm not one to hold injuries on players like it is their fault. Did they make every shot or counter every run, etc, no, but generally they played well enough for us to win our series, so I'm just not interested in nitpicking everything.

Did we have a true contender in the sense of best team in our conference and a team able to win a championship? No, we did not, but that was interestingly more about the ability to defend than offense. If we had the same set up and offense, but better wing size, a backup big who could defend and protect the rim, it changes things. There were many reasons for not being at the top, one simply being that as good as Paul was, he still wasn't and isn't a LeBron level player and he's still limited in the ways he can impact games compared to bigger players. If Paul was 6'8 with those same skills and tenacity, and even more athleticism for example, well then a lot of those holes that the front office consistently failed to fill, Paul's size and versatility allow you to work around, and he fills them. Then as good as Griffin was, and despite having the better size and physical tools, he was still developing, but he also had and has his limitations, one big one being lack of length and ability to play as a proper small ball 5 defensively. That's another versatility issue that would have changed how the team could function, if Blake could defend like a Draymond.

When you don't have a best player in the league type guy on your team, you generally will need a bit more than a team with that level of player to be a true contender.

My point was that CP3 was on the team for six full seasons before this summer, and in those six years, there were plenty of chances for the team to build a contender around him, chances that need to be successfully taken next time a superstar lands on our team if the eventual goal is to win a title. THOSE were the real opportunities to keep CP3 around, and by extension, the team's chances at contending. I care more about our fans not noticing these instances than calling me "delusional" for pointing them out.

Unfortunately, we spent those seasons catering to CP3's every demand instead of making the right choices to build a real contender. And he still left and blamed the organization on his way out, so it was all rather pointless.

Why is this a negative? You have been saying the same thing for the past 3 seasons that he said, so what's the issue? When Paul decided to leave, Doc was still President, and that was the culture he was criticizing. Considering Ballmer and Paul are friends, and Ballmer had dinner with both Paul and Redick talking about what went wrong, clearly he had no issues with Ballmer.

I started getting a hint earlier in the spring from Chris. I have a good relationship with Chris. I can’t say he said anything. But I was getting a little bit of a vibe and I knew we had to work hard to keep him. After our season, I sat down with Chris right away. We talked, we had breakfast and we stayed in continuous touch on the topic. I knew we were not in the best of shape and I was working my ass off [to keep him], as was everybody else, because he is a Hall of Fame player.

The final decision I got from Chris; I was actually talking to him when I was on vacation. I’m on some ship in the Greek Isles talking to Chris. He called me when I was in these ancient ruins. I sat there looking at these ruins. And he was very emotional as well. We had a heart-to-heart kind of conversation. I’ve had dinner with him since. There’s no reason not to be friendly with the people as people. I’m not rooting for him when he plays us. J.J. [Redick] and Jamal [Crawford], I’ve seen them all since they’ve moved on. I had dinner with J.J. in New York and I went to Jamal’s Pro-Am [in Seattle]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/la-sp-clippers-ballmer-20171002-story.html

Paul's criticism of the organization is directly and very clearly a criticism of Doc and the culture he set up, and his departure was obviously also tied to Doc losing his position. Sure you can be fake outraged because you don't like Paul and he must always be the bad guy, but few of us can claim to disagree with someone saying that the culture with Doc at the helm was not fully committed to winning over and above other conflicting interests. Heck, it half of the posts of Clippers fans on this and other forums about even him just as the coach and having Austin on the roster.

If you agree that the culture with Doc at the helm was not one fully committed to winning at all costs, then there's nothing to be mad at Paul for except saying it. The only sad thing is that despite him saying it, the media hasn't picked up and gotten on Doc about it and put pressure. For some reason Doc is always able to not get called out enough for things like this. Of course they might be and I'm missing it as I don't scour all articles and discussions, but I haven't seen it.

[Quake Griffin]

What Philly did with their picks has nothing to do with how we will go about scouting and developing our picks.


I just saw some of Ayton the other night. Seeing Embiid tear it up early this year with Ayton looking good early definitely got my attention. I like him much more than Porter. Not sure if we can tank well enough to get the 1 slot.

I like other guys in this draft too in the 10-15 range like Gary Trent Jr. would be great if we’d move DeAndre for a pick but looks like that isn’t happening so whatever.


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[esqtvd]

First thing is that building a true contender is a lot more difficult than people make it out to be. Second is that Sterling set us back, so we were already playing catch up, then Doc set us back a bit, so we were playing even more catch up. Windows are small in the NBA without the LeBron's of the league on your team, so if you're playing double catch up, you will miss your window as a new team emerges (GS). We had a severely understaffed front office, and the other teams building contenders had a ton more resources put into management, that's a big deal. The Houston series if we peel it all back was basically decided by the lack of 1-2 bench level players to rest guys, a wing and a big, we're talking about average level players.

The Sterling prelude set up the situation for Doc to be put in and remain in a position he shouldn't have had, while still being severely understaffed. The front office failed all the players, not just Paul, but Griffin and Redick and Jordan. Paul and Griffin also "failed" us with their injuries, but I'm not one to hold injuries on players like it is their fault. Did they make every shot or counter every run, etc, no, but generally they played well enough for us to win our series, so I'm just not interested in nitpicking everything.

Did we have a true contender in the sense of best team in our conference and a team able to win a championship? No, we did not, but that was interestingly more about the ability to defend than offense. If we had the same set up and offense, but better wing size, a backup big who could defend and protect the rim, it changes things. There were many reasons for not being at the top, one simply being that as good as Paul was, he still wasn't and isn't a LeBron level player and he's still limited in the ways he can impact games compared to bigger players. If Paul was 6'8 with those same skills and tenacity, and even more athleticism for example, well then a lot of those holes that the front office consistently failed to fill, Paul's size and versatility allow you to work around, and he fills them. Then as good as Griffin was, and despite having the better size and physical tools, he was still developing, but he also had and has his limitations, one big one being lack of length and ability to play as a proper small ball 5 defensively. That's another versatility issue that would have changed how the team could function, if Blake could defend like a Draymond.

When you don't have a best player in the league type guy on your team, you generally will need a bit more than a team with that level of player to be a true contender.

Once again with the disclaimer I'm glad he's moved out of the top job, Doc didn't let us down; he kept us afloat. Over the CP Era, we had something like the 3rd-best record in the NBA, and the top dog Spurs had 3 guys playing for much less than their market value--Tim Duncan for half [$10M] while we were playing the greatly limited DeAndre Jordan top dollar. Our bench was weak because Doc was forced to scramble for minimum-wage rejects because The Big Three ate 2/3 of the salary cap, and as you do rightly note, although CP and BG had max contracts, they were not the maximum NBA tier like LeBron, Duncan, and even Steph Curry.

As for the playoff failures, they can be attributed to injuries and of course to CP himself. And now CP has given up the superhero dream to go play second fiddle to The Beard. That's the one thing the Clippers couldn't offer him--someone's skirts to hide behind.

As for the culture, yes, there is an intensity problem, and indeed Chris got Austin's back in two separate incidents with Blake and DJ where Austin was getting on their s*** for lack of concentration. But Doc didn't create or acquire Blake and DJ. It is however, rumored that Doc heavily shopped Blake 2 years ago, and I still insist Doc made no real effort to keep DJ until he was pushed into it by Blake and JJ in the Great Emoji Circus a couple summers back. I have no doubt keeping Chris was Doc's preference--Chris is a HOFer and his competitiveness is legendary--but the fates decided it was the lesser-talented and less-intense Blake and DJ [at least for now] instead.

Where we stand now is to see if the Blake-DJ-Gallo [and perhaps Milos] axis is worth building around. If not, I'm not convinced Blake won't be amenable to getting dealt to a contender. But with GSW clogging the room at the top and LeBron a huge UFA wild card next year, taking the dough and sitting tight was Blake's best call, making all the proper noises about being a lifelong Clipper.

We'll see about that.

[esqtvd]

What Philly did with their picks has nothing to do with how we will go about scouting and developing our picks.


I just saw some of Ayton the other night. Seeing Embiid tear it up early this year with Ayton looking good early definitely got my attention. I like him much more than Porter. Not sure if we can tank well enough to get the 1 slot.

I like other guys in this draft too in the 10-15 range like Gary Trent Jr. would be great if we’d move DeAndre for a pick but looks like that isn’t happening so whatever.


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And the T-Pups have been doing The Process for 15 years. As OG just said, building a contender is no easy task. And Philly's picks were pretty much consensus picks at those spots. They didn't even necessarily reach or blunder. Look, the Bucks got a nice player in Brogdon at #36, but in the same draft, the same geniuses took Thon Maker at #10, who is smelling like a bust or at least a longer-term project than anyone would like.

And look at the Wizards--5 straight miserable seasons of 29 wins or less netted them three top-3 picks [Wall, Beal, Porter]--plus a #6 for some flop named Jan Vesley--but does anybody really smell The Larry over there? I smell a nice 50-win team perennially stuck in 2nd gear. Sound familiar?

The Spurs' draft record the past 10 years is far more misses than hits. In fact--get this--the Spurs haven't drafted an All-Star since Tony Parker in 2001! No, the argument isn't that Philly screwed up The Process, it's that NOBODY is going to get it much better. Trusting the draft is like trusting the dice--it's a fool's game.