Better All Around Player: Tim Duncan vs Hakeem Olajuwon

[JordansBulls]

Peak to peak I think hakeem was a hair better defensively, but DPOY award is just a bad argument here. Duncan often lost votes because of Bowen which is really silly but those were the times.

I see what you mean, but Hakeem won multiple of those awards. Duncan winning DPOY is similar to Wade winning league MVP.

Well I'll do a hot take here. Hakeem didn't deserve either of his defensive player of the year awards. That said he deserved even MORE of them in the 80's, but was snubbed. Kids today will see those awards and not realized Hakeem was a better defender in the late 80's and the first year or two of the 90's.

It's just an award that hasn't been given to the right players countless times.

Who deserved it over Hakeem in 1994? I agree that in 1993 MJ should have gotten it. But let's focus on 1994.

[Coleman]

So how do you deal with it was required man to man, defensive locations were dictated by the offense.

You do it how all of them do It including Popovich and your favorite player Tim Duncan did it. You stand in the lane anyway. The refs will not call it. It's a stupid rule and the refs know it. Tim Duncan stood in the lane when his guy he was guarding was Love, or bosh. Let Kevin Love have a field day on the three point line because he'll only go like 2-8 and will hurt his team shooting bad shots from the corner

The zone was implemented by that time.

You're uneducated about the rules in the 90's. you did not have to play man to man. They allowed guards to sag off their man or help off their man by about 10-12 feet off of them. Also on any drive you could all collapse. They allowed forwards and Centers to stay in the lane the entire time and even all the way to the CENTER of the lane all at the basket. yes, that is how the rules were. All the center don't like the new rules because they no longer allow shot blockers to stand at the rim. If all players were above the three point line in the 90's which never happened, then all rules were actually nullified and you could zone the lane and basket area.

This is why Tim Duncans shot block stats were much higher in the 1990s and early 2000's.

[dhsilv2]

I see what you mean, but Hakeem won multiple of those awards. Duncan winning DPOY is similar to Wade winning league MVP.

Well I'll do a hot take here. Hakeem didn't deserve either of his defensive player of the year awards. That said he deserved even MORE of them in the 80's, but was snubbed. Kids today will see those awards and not realized Hakeem was a better defender in the late 80's and the first year or two of the 90's.

It's just an award that hasn't been given to the right players countless times.

Who deserved it over Hakeem in 1994? I agree that in 1993 MJ should have gotten it. But let's focus on 1994.

I'd generally think ewing was the guy that year. To be honest Mutombo was already on that level and imo should have been at least on par with Hakeem. Now I have said plenty here about Ewing getting a bit overrated for those knicks teams, but it is more than they were a great defensive team and he was their best defender, but he had some really great other's who I think get dismissed when people say those 94 knicks are the best defensive team since the 60's and then want to claim ewing was the the sole reasons.

[Coleman]

Duncan never really went against a TOP NOTCH all time defense and all time great type team like say the 92 Knicks, 93 Knicks, 94 Knicks or the 87- 89 Pistons, or the 94 Rockets or the 91-98 Bulls the best defense he played was the 05 Pistons who were not an all time great team though. Then he played a lot against Shaq and the Lakers but once again had the Twin Towers to help with Shaq. That's a big key also Phil wasn't there. When Phil was there the Lakers took pretty much all those series and especially the series they wanted to.

The 87-89 pistons were never the best defense in the nba...

What are you basing that on? you say it like you are a know it all.

[dhsilv2]

You do it how all of them do It including Popovich and your favorite player Tim Duncan did it. You stand in the lane anyway. The refs will not call it. It's a stupid rule and the refs know it. Tim Duncan stood in the lane when his guy he was guarding was Love, or bosh. Let Kevin Love have a field day on the three point line because he'll only go like 2-8 and will hurt his team shooting bad shots from the corner

The zone was implemented by that time.

You're uneducated about the rules in the 90's. you did not have to play man to man. They allowed guards to sag off their man or help off their man by about 10-12 feet off of them. Also on any drive you could all collapse. They allowed forwards and Centers to stay in the lane the entire time and even all the way to the CENTER of the lane all at the basket. yes, that is how the rules were. All the center don't like the new rules because they no longer allow shot blockers to stand at the rim. If all players were above the three point line in the 90's which never happened, then all rules were actually nullified and you could zone the lane and basket area.

This is why Tim Duncans shot block stats were much higher in the 1990s and early 2000's.

OK now you're just trolling. You're not blocked. All the best if you're not trolling but you're level of discussion has used up enough of my time tonight.

[Coleman]

I told you I don't know how to crop video and paste. Also not everything that has ever been said is on the internet son. But that doesn't mean it wasn't said or true. Many true things and said things are not on the internet son.

you just are biased to the Spurs because you're a spurs can. I get it, everything spurs=the best.

[Coleman]

The zone was implemented by that time.

You're uneducated about the rules in the 90's. you did not have to play man to man. They allowed guards to sag off their man or help off their man by about 10-12 feet off of them. Also on any drive you could all collapse. They allowed forwards and Centers to stay in the lane the entire time and even all the way to the CENTER of the lane all at the basket. yes, that is how the rules were. All the center don't like the new rules because they no longer allow shot blockers to stand at the rim. If all players were above the three point line in the 90's which never happened, then all rules were actually nullified and you could zone the lane and basket area.

This is why Tim Duncans shot block stats were much higher in the 1990s and early 2000's.

OK now you're just trolling. You're not blocked. All the best if you're not trolling but you're level of discussion has used up enough of my time tonight.

you're trolling, You first come on here and say Hakeem was a Black Hole. WHERE THE F*$#*@# did you hear that??? Then you go on about how he doesn't know how to pass the basketball. you're a clown and a troll.

I told you Duncan is about the 10th or 11th best player. I told you I don't move guys up that much for 15 and 10 seasons late in their career. I mainly look at their best 7-8 seasons. Duncans shot was almost broke a lot of his career. Not too many go out to the park and start shooting and say I want to shoot like Duncan.

You don't know the rules. you honestly believe in your stupid mind that there is no rule that says you can't stand in the lane on defense. that is the point of a ZONE to keep a defenders by the RIM.

Meanwhile players today are shooting 65% in that 7 feet an in range in todays NBA. So many players today shooting 59% on 2's. Even just random starters that aren't even great. That is equal To Shaq???? Can you say lack of Rim Defense today?????

[Coleman]

then your clown ass basically says the Bad Boy Pistons were not a great defense.

[trex_8063]

The story of Spurs rings has less to do with Duncan and more to do with the GOAT coach in Pop.

Hmmm.....I'm going to quote a few passages (thematically grouping as appropriate) from various articles/sportswriters or persons from the Spurs organization (including Pop himself), and some quotes from ThaRegul8r, who has likely followed Duncan's career more closely than anyone else here:

GROUP A:

Inside the league, Tim Duncan became the most influential player of his generation. Though he had little public appeal outside central Texas over his two decades in the league, Duncan ushered in cultural change in NBA practice facilities, locker rooms and executive suites.

The present-day NBA has become singularly consumed with the adoption and implementation of organizational culture. Forever looking for competitive advantages, franchises have turned to workplace culture as a bulwark. We might not be able to attract a top-line free agent, or hit the jackpot in the draft, but there are 44 games in an NBA season that can be won if we value the right things.

This is the league's guiding principle in 2016, from Atlanta and Salt Lake City to Oklahoma City and Brooklyn, where disciples of the Tim Duncan era learned the art and science of team-building in San Antonio. They've applied the findings and sculpted them to suit a particular roster or market. Some have enjoyed modest success while others are just getting started. But try as they might to replicate the Spurs' recipe, all of them are forced to concede at a certain juncture that they're missing one essential ingredient:

They don't have Tim Duncan.

''The real key is can you find that kind of person that will allow you to build your culture like that?'' Milwaukee Bucks GM John Hammond said. ''I think a lot of people are trying to copy that.''

If you were starting an organization from scratch in any sport you would look to the Spurs to model your franchise after and yet it wouldn’t work, because you wouldn’t have Tim Duncan.

GROUP B:

"The truth is we all work for Timmy."

"We all see it R.C.'s way. We're not dumb. We all know we wouldn't have any rings without Timmy. Everybody understands that. We all feel like we're working for Timmy."

GROUP C:
Says Sean Elliott about how hard Gregg Popovich can be on his players.....

"It sucks. If you play for him long enough, it doesn't matter who you are. You're gonna get torn down. You're gonna get it during film sessions, you're gonna get it on the court, you're gonna get in practice."

But here's the thing with the Spurs. It ranks as one of the more amazing aspects of Pop's long tenure in charge:

No one ever seems to quit on Pop no matter how loudly he screams. No one checks out. Pop's been a yeller since he took over for Bob Hill just 18 games into the 1996-97 season and hasn't mellowed yet. To this day, though, Pop has the rare privilege of knowing his best player is still willing to step face-first into the coach's full-throttle spittle if Pop thinks that's what the team needs to see.

"That's who Tim Duncan is."

Gregg Popovich, when questioned about Duncan's ability to accept coaching:

"That's a great point. His willingness to allow me and my staff to coach him, and coach him critically, 'You did well. You did poorly. Here's the deal.' That allowed for a lot of success because that set the tone for every other player that's ever come through that door. Because when somebody like him accepts and wants direction and coaching, and responds to it so well, it makes it very difficult for anybody else to go in a different direction. So that was huge for our success."

GROUP D:
Gregg Popovich when asked "What did he teach you about leadership?"

"That there are all kinds of leadership. His was a quiet [one]. He doesn't wave a towel. He doesn't give speeches. When he speaks it's for a purpose. Less is more in a sense with him. So when he did speak, it meant something to people.

"And he led by example. He had a vision. Everybody bought into his vision. He was accepting. He was not judgmental of people. He didn't even really need to demand because they knew inherently that what he expected was what they saw in him and what he did every day in practice and in games; how he handled a loss, how he handled that loss in Miami in the [2013 NBA] Finals, how he handled that win against Miami in the [2014] Finals. That's who he was and that's how he led."

Gregg Popovich when asked "What one thing will the organization miss most with Duncan gone?":

"I just think the aura that he creates, the iconic figure that he established for us all those years, the security, the safety net, the home plate, the hub of the wheel, all that sort of thing is who he was as a player. Even when he didn't score as many points the last couple of years, people still don't realize how efficient he was defensively. Just look to see where he ranked this last year as an individual player defensively, then you'll figure that out very quickly.

"Offensively, people know how to react because of where he's at. He'll move on the court and react when other players wouldn't have a clue, and they'd just be in the way. But he knows where to go. So even though his production stat-wise wasn't the same, we won 67 games because he still was the center of everything we did on both ends of the court; even whether people scored more. So we'll miss that and have to figure it out. Other people will have to step up leadership-wise. That'll be a huge thing for us: Who's gonna step up and be that quiet leader that everybody responds to and respects and feeds off of? Not a lot of people can handle that. So we'll see how that goes."

I can't seem to locate the quote, but there was one quote of Pop's----talking about the Spurs success over the last two decades---that went something like this [paraphrased]: "It all starts and ends with Timmy."


GROUP E:

Despite being arguably the team's best overall player last season, Duncan is taking a $5 million pay cut this season so the team had the resources necessary to re-sign Leonard and Danny Green and bring in Aldridge, a prized free agent.

That's why when I see people talking about the Spurs winning 61 games in their first year post-Duncan, I know they haven't actually been following the Spurs on anything other than a superficial basis.

Duncan’s last gift to the Spurs is the ability to walk away and not leave the organization in complete ruins.

Steve Kerr on Duncan's retirement and where the Spurs go from here:

"It's going to be really strange for sure. When you think of a Spurs game, you think of the opening tip and Timmy cradling the ball and looking down at Pop and Manu and Tony. The four of them really kind of define who they are. But Tim is the main guy obviously. They'll still be the Spurs based on what they've built. And maybe that's Timmy's lasting legacy. He helped build something so strong that's still going after he leaves."

[/quote]

Plenty of great athletes in plenty of cities have delivered championships during their careers. But Duncan, more than anyone, first enabled Popovich's sharing culture to take root with his acceptance of it, and now is nurturing the next generation of Spurs championship potential. Remember the Celtics in the years after Larry Bird, Lakers after Magic Johnson, Pistons after Isiah Thomas, Rockets after Hakeem Olajuwon, Bulls after Michael Jordan. Now think about the Spurs with Aldridge and Leonard.

Duncan is no longer just teaching the next generation of Spurs how to keep driving. He's handing over the keys.

I'll just link the full article with the Popovich interview transcript from Duncan's retirement:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17024510/nba-popovich-duncan-retirement-transcript

[dhsilv2]

The story of Spurs rings has less to do with Duncan and more to do with the GOAT coach in Pop.

Hmmm.....I'm going to quote a few passages (thematically grouping as appropriate) from various articles/sportswriters or persons from the Spurs organization (including Pop himself), and some quotes from ThaRegul8r, who has likely followed Duncan's career more closely than anyone else here:

GROUP A:

Inside the league, Tim Duncan became the most influential player of his generation. Though he had little public appeal outside central Texas over his two decades in the league, Duncan ushered in cultural change in NBA practice facilities, locker rooms and executive suites.

The present-day NBA has become singularly consumed with the adoption and implementation of organizational culture. Forever looking for competitive advantages, franchises have turned to workplace culture as a bulwark. We might not be able to attract a top-line free agent, or hit the jackpot in the draft, but there are 44 games in an NBA season that can be won if we value the right things.

This is the league's guiding principle in 2016, from Atlanta and Salt Lake City to Oklahoma City and Brooklyn, where disciples of the Tim Duncan era learned the art and science of team-building in San Antonio. They've applied the findings and sculpted them to suit a particular roster or market. Some have enjoyed modest success while others are just getting started. But try as they might to replicate the Spurs' recipe, all of them are forced to concede at a certain juncture that they're missing one essential ingredient:

They don't have Tim Duncan.

''The real key is can you find that kind of person that will allow you to build your culture like that?'' Milwaukee Bucks GM John Hammond said. ''I think a lot of people are trying to copy that.''

If you were starting an organization from scratch in any sport you would look to the Spurs to model your franchise after and yet it wouldn’t work, because you wouldn’t have Tim Duncan.

GROUP B:

"The truth is we all work for Timmy."

"We all see it R.C.'s way. We're not dumb. We all know we wouldn't have any rings without Timmy. Everybody understands that. We all feel like we're working for Timmy."

GROUP C:
Says Sean Elliott about how hard Gregg Popovich can be on his players.....

"It sucks. If you play for him long enough, it doesn't matter who you are. You're gonna get torn down. You're gonna get it during film sessions, you're gonna get it on the court, you're gonna get in practice."

But here's the thing with the Spurs. It ranks as one of the more amazing aspects of Pop's long tenure in charge:

No one ever seems to quit on Pop no matter how loudly he screams. No one checks out. Pop's been a yeller since he took over for Bob Hill just 18 games into the 1996-97 season and hasn't mellowed yet. To this day, though, Pop has the rare privilege of knowing his best player is still willing to step face-first into the coach's full-throttle spittle if Pop thinks that's what the team needs to see.

"That's who Tim Duncan is."

Gregg Popovich, when questioned about Duncan's ability to accept coaching:

"That's a great point. His willingness to allow me and my staff to coach him, and coach him critically, 'You did well. You did poorly. Here's the deal.' That allowed for a lot of success because that set the tone for every other player that's ever come through that door. Because when somebody like him accepts and wants direction and coaching, and responds to it so well, it makes it very difficult for anybody else to go in a different direction. So that was huge for our success."

GROUP D:
Gregg Popovich when asked "What did he teach you about leadership?"

"That there are all kinds of leadership. His was a quiet [one]. He doesn't wave a towel. He doesn't give speeches. When he speaks it's for a purpose. Less is more in a sense with him. So when he did speak, it meant something to people.

"And he led by example. He had a vision. Everybody bought into his vision. He was accepting. He was not judgmental of people. He didn't even really need to demand because they knew inherently that what he expected was what they saw in him and what he did every day in practice and in games; how he handled a loss, how he handled that loss in Miami in the [2013 NBA] Finals, how he handled that win against Miami in the [2014] Finals. That's who he was and that's how he led."

Gregg Popovich when asked "What one thing will the organization miss most with Duncan gone?":

"I just think the aura that he creates, the iconic figure that he established for us all those years, the security, the safety net, the home plate, the hub of the wheel, all that sort of thing is who he was as a player. Even when he didn't score as many points the last couple of years, people still don't realize how efficient he was defensively. Just look to see where he ranked this last year as an individual player defensively, then you'll figure that out very quickly.

"Offensively, people know how to react because of where he's at. He'll move on the court and react when other players wouldn't have a clue, and they'd just be in the way. But he knows where to go. So even though his production stat-wise wasn't the same, we won 67 games because he still was the center of everything we did on both ends of the court; even whether people scored more. So we'll miss that and have to figure it out. Other people will have to step up leadership-wise. That'll be a huge thing for us: Who's gonna step up and be that quiet leader that everybody responds to and respects and feeds off of? Not a lot of people can handle that. So we'll see how that goes."

I can't seem to locate the quote, but there was one quote of Pop's----talking about the Spurs success over the last two decades---that went something like this [paraphrased]: "It all starts and ends with Timmy."


GROUP E:

Despite being arguably the team's best overall player last season, Duncan is taking a $5 million pay cut this season so the team had the resources necessary to re-sign Leonard and Danny Green and bring in Aldridge, a prized free agent.

That's why when I see people talking about the Spurs winning 61 games in their first year post-Duncan, I know they haven't actually been following the Spurs on anything other than a superficial basis.

Duncan’s last gift to the Spurs is the ability to walk away and not leave the organization in complete ruins.

Steve Kerr on Duncan's retirement and where the Spurs go from here:

"It's going to be really strange for sure. When you think of a Spurs game, you think of the opening tip and Timmy cradling the ball and looking down at Pop and Manu and Tony. The four of them really kind of define who they are. But Tim is the main guy obviously. They'll still be the Spurs based on what they've built. And maybe that's Timmy's lasting legacy. He helped build something so strong that's still going after he leaves."

Plenty of great athletes in plenty of cities have delivered championships during their careers. But Duncan, more than anyone, first enabled Popovich's sharing culture to take root with his acceptance of it, and now is nurturing the next generation of Spurs championship potential. Remember the Celtics in the years after Larry Bird, Lakers after Magic Johnson, Pistons after Isiah Thomas, Rockets after Hakeem Olajuwon, Bulls after Michael Jordan. Now think about the Spurs with Aldridge and Leonard.

Duncan is no longer just teaching the next generation of Spurs how to keep driving. He's handing over the keys.

I'll just link the full article with the Popovich interview transcript from Duncan's retirement:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17024510/nba-popovich-duncan-retirement-transcript[/quote]

While on the well rounded scale I debated just posting a picture of a michelin tire and then posting a Flintstones style rock tire for hakeem (which btw is fair) to show their well roundness. This is an area I've never really heard discussed fairly on hakeem. Hakeem's teammates loved the dude. I mean he was an all time great, had to be the most amazing guy in the practice hall ever, he's easily imo better than MJ in a one on one (and yes I said it). But were coaches and GM's talking about him like Duncan? I doubt the HELL out of it! And that's an angle that's off the normal field for me in these kinds of debates, "well rounded primes" but I think perhaps I'm wrong to not stress it.

That said would anyone with hakeem have ever said a bad thing? The guy for his few flaws was still a top 15 guy and his peak was better than that.

[Vayuputra]

Great posts by 'dhsilv2'. He wins this thread. Also suggest the casual fans here to check 'trex_8063' many great posts in the RealGM Top 100 list about Duncan's game.

Of course the emotional fools like 'Coleman' and his ilk off the 'street' and 'barber shops' who cannot grasp numbers (or just go by raw numbers without checking the pace of the offense etc.) and 'casual fans' who go by the aesthetics will say Olajuwon is 'far better' than Duncan and will go down to the level of quoting Rob Horry, who clearly has a sour relationship with the Spurs ever since Popovich forced him into retirement. The comparison is close but I'd take Duncan any day all day. Look I get it, Duncan will never get the respect he deserves from the 'street' or the 'barber shops' or the 'casual fans', but I expect better from posters at Realgm. And to me Hakeem in the last 10 years has quickly gone from the most underrated to the most overrated star, to the extent that people are blindly putting him 'far ahead' of the likes of Kareem, Wilt, Shaq and Duncan.

Tim Duncan may not have the otherworldy grace and leaping ability of Hakeem, but they are pretty well matched in terms of low post game - with both possessing great footwork, IQ and finishing, anchoring All-NBA defense and ability to raise their games in the money season. I also think over the years Duncan's ability to score in a variety of ways has also become way underrated. People forget that besides his highly skilled and cerebral low post game, he was as fast as Karl Malone running end to end and was quite strong and long and possessed great hands and footwork and a very high IQ. And especially his ability to finish off the glass from a variety of angles (which I believe is him compensating for his lack of leaping ability) has become very underrated. I derived as much joy watching a Prime Duncan operating in the post, cleverly outmaneuvering defenses in a variety of ways and single-handedly carrying the offense for a period of 7 years (1998-2004) as watching any other superstar operate since then. He was the last of his kind - a franchise elevating, generational low-post scoring talent who in his prime regularly commanded double teams as much as any of his predecessors, just low-key.

I think the supporters putting Hakeem over Duncan would also be the ones putting Kobe over Lebron. To them the game is all about style and not substance. That says it all.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I think the supporters putting Hakeem over Duncan would also be the ones putting Kobe over Lebron. To them the game is all about style and not substance. That says it all

I think Duncan generally possessed a higher basketball IQ, more fundamentally sound than pre 93 Hakeem and was a better passer.

But having watched both of their careers I haven't seen anything Duncan could do on a basketball court that Hakeem didn't prove capable of doing and that's why I rank Hakeem ahead of him.

There are quite a few things Hakeem did that Duncan never had the ability to.

No version of Duncan offensively could put up the kinds of series Hakeem had vs 2 way threats Robinson and Shaq h2h. He was played to a standstill vs the likes of KG and Rasheed h2h in the playoffs and nowhere near averaging above 25ppg.

I find it laughable these nonsensical "offensive indicators" people throw around on RealGM when comparing the twos scoring don't admit that.

He never had the agility to play the type of horizontal floor defense that routinely thwarted opposing players. He gambled a lot more than TD but Duncan had FAR more defensive help in his career than Hakeem causing a lot of this at times. He never had a Rocket make a all D team for his entire career. TD did NOT have the agility to have the type of defensive series Hakeem had vs Seattle in 93.

Duncan was a more fundamentally sound player and stable leader than Hakeem.

Hakeem was a more athletic, versatile and explosive player on offense and defense.