Player of the Day: Andre Roberson

[Atomic Punk]

I love what Dre brings to the court defensively but to suggest his complete incompetence on the offensive end is not a problem is just foolish. I get that the team generally does well offensively while he is on the court with the starters, but for crying out loud, you have to be able to hit a damn shot and the team has to have confidence that you can. Even his freakin layups look shaky.

how about baron westbrook not trying on 75% of defensive possessions? allowing himself to get rubbed out of a play by any screen? is that a problem?

all these guys have problems right now. dre is performing about as well as you would expect overall, doing what he usually does. he turned down a shot he makes maybe 25% of the time, went to the bench, and then watch westbrook attempt a pull up 28 footer that he probably makes 25% of the time also. the guy who's not doing his job right now on the team is westbrook, not dre.

roberson's issues on offense are being overblown because it's visible and because the team is trying to scapegoat him for some reason; likely because of westbrook.

I told you already, you are not worth arguing with, not until you admit Dre is a bloody disaster of an offensive player and is a liability on that end of the court as an individual. Get off his d**k for five minutes then we can talk.

[slick_watts]

I told you already, you are not worth arguing with, not until you admit Dre is a bloody disaster of an offensive player and is a liability on that end of the court as an individual. Get off his d**k for five minutes then we can talk.

dre's effect on the offense can and has been quantified without the use of childish metaphors (i.e. 'bloody disaster'). he's a minus on offense, probably not as big a one as you think, but i don't know why you have the impression that anyone on this board (myself included) has not acknowledged that this is a major weakness for him. if it wasn't, he would be one of the best wings in the nba.

[hardenASG13]

I love what Dre brings to the court defensively but to suggest his complete incompetence on the offensive end is not a problem is just foolish. I get that the team generally does well offensively while he is on the court with the starters, but for crying out loud, you have to be able to hit a damn shot and the team has to have confidence that you can. Even his freakin layups look shaky.

how about baron westbrook not trying on 75% of defensive possessions? allowing himself to get rubbed out of a play by any screen? is that a problem?

all these guys have problems right now. dre is performing about as well as you would expect overall, doing what he usually does. he turned down a shot he makes maybe 25% of the time, went to the bench, and then watch westbrook attempt a pull up 28 footer that he probably makes 25% of the time also. the guy who's not doing his job right now on the team is westbrook, not dre.

roberson's issues on offense are being overblown because it's visible and because the team is trying to scapegoat him for some reason; likely because of westbrook.

The team is trying to scapegoat him because no other team has to deal with a wing who isn't at all confident on offense. This is the NBA! It's simply not acceptable to be as bad as he is offensively. He deserved to be shown up on National TV for passing up that shot. He does that stuff all the time. Guys like melo, oladipo, westbrook, etc. Repeatedly take bad shots, rather than pass to an open Roberson, because it's clear he doesn't want the ball. A good leader (coach) would've pulled the plug on the Roberson nonsense long ago. His teammates are too talented not to be rightfully frustrated with him. If he can't shoot layups, won't draw fouls or attempt open jumpers, even at the end of a shot clock, he can't play wing in the best league in the world.

And, yes, westbrook needs to play better defensively. Curious, if you don't like him, why do you like OKC? For roberson?

[Atomic Punk]

I told you already, you are not worth arguing with, not until you admit Dre is a bloody disaster of an offensive player and is a liability on that end of the court as an individual. Get off his d**k for five minutes then we can talk.

dre's effect on the offense can and has been quantified without the use of childish metaphors (i.e. 'bloody disaster'). he's a minus on offense, probably not as big a one as you think, but i don't know why you have the impression that anyone on this board (myself included) has not acknowledged that this is a major weakness for him. if it wasn't, he would be one of the best wings in the nba.

Wow. This is exactly why it is worthless trying to reason with or debate with you. You kind of admit that Dre is a dog on offense but you still have to qualify that by saying we don’t need to use “childish metaphors” (CHILDISH? REALLY? BARON?) or he is not as big a minus as I think. Or if not for his offensive ineptitude he would be one of the best wings in the NBA (by that logic, if Kanter wasn’t so bad on defense he would be one of the best bigs in the NBA). Your support of Dre is as unreasonable as your continued criticism of Westbrook.

I said I won’t argue with you and this will be my last response or reply to any of your posts, so read carefully:

You frequently change the argument, argue for, then against the relevance of certain stats or the value of history based on whatever narrative you are peddling. You don’t engage in discussions, you give lectures. You are obviously intelligent, but intellectually dishonest. You frequently claim that people are personally attacking you and then you personally attack them. You are the RealGM discussion board equivalent of the kid that licks his finger and sticks it someones ear or puts that same finger one inch from someone’s face and says “I’m not touching you, I’m not touching you!” Worst of all, you are a hypocrite and irony is apparently lost on you.

Sometimes I wonder if you even believe half of the sh*t you say or if you just get off on arguing. Because as I said, there is no discussion with you, in your mind you are right, everyone else is wrong, and that’s it. I think that if everyone finally said, yep, slick is right about everything, you would turn around and argue against that conclusion. I also wonder if you actually like watching the game. You constantly reduce everything to some goddamn stat (nobody likes a math geek). Do you get no joy at all from just watching these incredible athletes perform?

Your level of condescension, arrogance, and pretentiousness are shocking, even for the internet.

Fire away, do your worst, but I am forever done with you sir.

[hardenASG13]

I told you already, you are not worth arguing with, not until you admit Dre is a bloody disaster of an offensive player and is a liability on that end of the court as an individual. Get off his d**k for five minutes then we can talk.

dre's effect on the offense can and has been quantified without the use of childish metaphors (i.e. 'bloody disaster'). he's a minus on offense, probably not as big a one as you think, but i don't know why you have the impression that anyone on this board (myself included) has not acknowledged that this is a major weakness for him. if it wasn't, he would be one of the best wings in the nba.

Wow. This is exactly why it is worthless trying to reason with or debate with you. You kind of admit that Dre is a dog on offense but you still have to qualify that by saying we don’t need to use “childish metaphors” (CHILDISH? REALLY? BARON?) or he is not as big a minus as I think. Or if not for his offensive ineptitude he would be one of the best wings in the NBA (by that logic, if Kanter wasn’t so bad on defense he would be one of the best bigs in the NBA). Your support of Dre is as unreasonable as your continued criticism of Westbrook.

I said I won’t argue with you and this will be my last response or reply to any of your posts, so read carefully:

You frequently change the argument, argue for, then against the relevance of certain stats or the value of history based on whatever narrative you are peddling. You don’t engage in discussions, you give lectures. You are obviously intelligent, but intellectually dishonest. You frequently claim that people are personally attacking you and then you personally attack them. You are the RealGM discussion board equivalent of the kid that licks his finger and sticks it someones ear or puts that same finger one inch from someone’s face and says “I’m not touching you, I’m not touching you!” Worst of all, you are a hypocrite and irony is apparently lost on you.

Sometimes I wonder if you even believe half of the sh*t you say or if you just get off on arguing. Because as I said, there is no discussion with you, in your mind you are right, everyone else is wrong, and that’s it. I think that if everyone finally said, yep, slick is right about everything, you would turn around and argue against that conclusion. I also wonder if you actually like watching the game. You constantly reduce everything to some goddamn stat (nobody likes a math geek). Do you get no joy at all from just watching these incredible athletes perform?

Your level of condescension, arrogance, and pretentiousness are shocking, even for the internet.

Fire away, do your worst, but I am forever done with you sir.

I don't see how he can enjoy, or even watch games, with all his side charting, obsession over stats,etc. Roberson stinks, clear as day. He's just arguing it for the sake, I agree. If grant (who defied stats and improved in his second season on a real team) did half the things Roberson does, he'd have a field day attacking him. Such a hypocrite, can't take him serious.

[slick_watts]

Or if not for his offensive ineptitude he would be one of the best wings in the NBA (by that logic, if Kanter wasn’t so bad on defense he would be one of the best bigs in the NBA).

if kanter were a plus on defense, yeah, he'd basically be one of the best bigs in the nba. roberson and kanter are interesting as polar opposites, however it's been shown over thousands of minutes that it's easier to build a productive offense next to roberson than it is to build a productive defense next to kanter.

Your support of Dre is as unreasonable as your continued criticism of Westbrook.

i support every thunder player.

You frequently change the argument, argue for, then against the relevance of certain stats or the value of history based on whatever narrative you are peddling.

if you're referring to the discussion with bondom34 (which, you weren't a part of) on the merits of net rating and rpm this early in the season- i thought i explained my position thoroughly. certain things are more relevant than others. but that depends on the context, not the narrative. that was the issue in the discussion on net rating. using a stat like individual net rating to value-rank players a few hundred minutes into the season is probably not kosher. using a stat like individual net rating to value-rank players over thousands of minutes? yeah. the distinction is well understood. larger sample sizes are needed with any sort of plus/minus metric in order to extract the individual contribution from the noise of four other teammates.

this isn't "changing arguments" or changing my opinion "based on whatever narrative" i'm peddling. it's common sense.

You don’t engage in discussions, you give lectures. You are obviously intelligent, but intellectually dishonest. You frequently claim that people are personally attacking you and then you personally attack them. You are the RealGM discussion board equivalent of the kid that licks his finger and sticks it someones ear or puts that same finger one inch from someone’s face and says “I’m not touching you, I’m not touching you!” Worst of all, you are a hypocrite and irony is apparently lost on you.

I think that if everyone finally said, yep, slick is right about everything, you would turn around and argue against that conclusion.

i'm wrong about plenty of things. you're overreacting. calm down.

I also wonder if you actually like watching the game. You constantly reduce everything to some goddamn stat (nobody likes a math geek). Do you get no joy at all from just watching these incredible athletes perform?

i'm pretty sure in this very thread, or previous andre roberson threads, i've posted dozens of links to clips illustrating some of the points i've made.

nobody likes a math geek? why not? feel threatened by my calculator?

Fire away, do your worst, but I am forever done with you sir.

whatever. this whole post was nonsense. do you want to talk basketball or not?

[slick_watts]

The team is trying to scapegoat him because no other team has to deal with a wing who isn't at all confident on offense. This is the NBA! It's simply not acceptable to be as bad as he is offensively. He deserved to be shown up on National TV for passing up that shot. He does that stuff all the time. Guys like melo, oladipo, westbrook, etc. Repeatedly take bad shots, rather than pass to an open Roberson, because it's clear he doesn't want the ball. A good leader (coach) would've pulled the plug on the Roberson nonsense long ago. His teammates are too talented not to be rightfully frustrated with him. If he can't shoot layups, won't draw fouls or attempt open jumpers, even at the end of a shot clock, he can't play wing in the best league in the world.

it's dre's fault westbrook takes bad shots? really? did you miss the 28-foot pull up he took the play after dre was benched in 2Q? dre defends two guys on the court regularly (basically, any time westbrook gets screened). what's the difference between that and playing 4 v. 5 on offense? i'm speaking rhetorically of course since the 4 v. 5 thing is absurd.

that's what scapegoating is btw. does dre have issues on the court offensively? yeah. but attributing this kind of nonsense- melo, oladipo westbrook take bad shots because of him- is scapegoating. and sad since it's dre making up for the defensive shortcomings.

dre does his job and he does it well. he's bounced back after a rough few games to start and is on his way to another dominant defensive season. it must make you furious. were you satisfied when dre was benched v. the spurs and they went on a run that they never let go of? how about against minnesota both times when the team couldn't defend in 4Q?

face it. dre's not close to the biggest problem on the team right now. he's doing what he's supposed to do.

And, yes, westbrook needs to play better defensively. Curious, if you don't like him, why do you like OKC? For roberson?

i'm a fan of baron westbrook, but i hold star players to star standards.

[RalphSampsonJr]

Why is Roberson in the spotlight for the thunders struggle on offense?!
Crazy

[Pillendreher]

face it. dre's not close to the biggest problem on the team right now. he's doing what he's supposed to do.

Say what you want about him, but his defense is consistently excellent and offensively, he's doing what he's capabale of. I don't blame him not taking those 3s.

Fun fact tho: While Russ is making 6.3 % (!!!) of his post up attempts (1.1 per game) and 29.1 % of his pull-up jumpers (8.5 per game). I'd much rather him taking better shots than yelling at Roberson for not taking bad ones.

[sleestak33]

If Kanter plays in a game and scores 14 points, throws 2 assists which lead to another 4 points and grabs 3 offensive rebounds that lead to another 4 points he accounted for 20 points in let's say 22 minutes. That's an average game for him. Let's say defensively he gives up 12 in that time frame (which would be a ton)...even though he played poor defensively he still put the team 8 points in the plus.

this is the silliest accounting of basketball impact i've seen in my life. what thought processes drove you toward thinking about a basketball game in this manner?

also- aside from the reductive (and, impossible) manner in which you are assigning value, you do know that if kanter wasn't in someone else would be, right? so the proper way to do is this account for what kanter is doing relative to the players that would replace him, right? the team doesn't just take kanter off the floor and leave a void on the court.

it's amusing you say 'post whatever stat or metric you want' when most of the metrics and stats being posted here are doing the thing that you are trying to do in your made up way.

You live alone in a world where a guy who accounts for around 18 points offensively in 21 minutes per game is somehow a negative to the team. You also live alone in a world where a starting shooting guard in the NBA who is so pathetic offensively that he doesn't even need to be guarded is somehow a positive to the team. Tell you what slick...watch Roberson closely when OKC plays the Warriors this week and when they continually take Draymond Green (who will probably be his "defender") and either stand him by the lane clogging it or use him to run at the ballhandler and double team and truly understand all of the issues his pathetic offense causes. You are going to get an up close and personal look at what's happening at its most impactful moment. Whether you like it or not Roberson's benching is inevitable and this game will take him that much closer. Also watch as he tries to either guard KD or Thompson and I guarantee you whoever he is on will score 30 just like they did last year (KD averaged 37 and Thompson had 34 in the last game).

[hardenASG13]

The team is trying to scapegoat him because no other team has to deal with a wing who isn't at all confident on offense. This is the NBA! It's simply not acceptable to be as bad as he is offensively. He deserved to be shown up on National TV for passing up that shot. He does that stuff all the time. Guys like melo, oladipo, westbrook, etc. Repeatedly take bad shots, rather than pass to an open Roberson, because it's clear he doesn't want the ball. A good leader (coach) would've pulled the plug on the Roberson nonsense long ago. His teammates are too talented not to be rightfully frustrated with him. If he can't shoot layups, won't draw fouls or attempt open jumpers, even at the end of a shot clock, he can't play wing in the best league in the world.

it's dre's fault westbrook takes bad shots? really? did you miss the 28-foot pull up he took the play after dre was benched in 2Q? dre defends two guys on the court regularly (basically, any time westbrook gets screened). what's the difference between that and playing 4 v. 5 on offense? i'm speaking rhetorically of course since the 4 v. 5 thing is absurd.

that's what scapegoating is btw. does dre have issues on the court offensively? yeah. but attributing this kind of nonsense- melo, oladipo westbrook take bad shots because of him- is scapegoating. and sad since it's dre making up for the defensive shortcomings.

dre does his job and he does it well. he's bounced back after a rough few games to start and is on his way to another dominant defensive season. it must make you furious. were you satisfied when dre was benched v. the spurs and they went on a run that they never let go of? how about against minnesota both times when the team couldn't defend in 4Q?

face it. dre's not close to the biggest problem on the team right now. he's doing what he's supposed to do.

And, yes, westbrook needs to play better defensively. Curious, if you don't like him, why do you like OKC? For roberson?

i'm a fan of baron westbrook, but i hold star players to star standards.

You are blinded by your mancrush in your argument here. Does Westbrook take bad shots exclusively because of Roberson? Of course not. The Guy plays in constant attack mode, has since day 1 and it's why many people like him. That said If you don't think those guys force bad shots, instead of passing to an open Roberson, specifically under 10 on the shot clock, then you are in denial. Watch for it, it happens.

Are you attributing the run vs. The spurs to him going to the bench, when okc also dominated the stretch where he went to the bench in the first/start of the second? One could just as easily argue his reinsertion contributed to the start of the run, that extended in ugly fashion.

He is a good help defender, to claim he is regularly guarding 2 guys is an absurd overstatement. He also regularly switches when he is screened, and the team in general has done a great job rotating defensively. To attribute Roberson for all their success defensively is a massive reach. George, grant, adams, etc. Have all been very good as well.

The minnesota games, where they "couldn't defend in the 4th quarter"?! Look at the actual results, not the D rating or pp100. First game minnesota points by quarter:
28, 33, 27, 27

Second minnesota game, minny points by quarter:
26,33, 32, 29.

The 4th doesn't stand out as a bad quarter defensively, in either game, despite what your useless stats tell you. Minnesota didn't go off in either 4th, it was actually tied for their lowest point total in the first game and was 2nd lowest in the second game. The Thunder in those 4th quarters? Won by 11 in game 1, scoring 38 points, and lost by 2 in the second game. Your argument is wrong, take off the blinders.

[hardenASG13]

Why is Roberson in the spotlight for the thunders struggle on offense?!
Crazy

Certainly not the spotlight, but they can't come close to reaching their ceiling when he's in the game.

He is so far worse than any other wing offensively (people argued he was better than guys like Marcus smart, Danny green, and TJ Warren with me last year!) that while he isnt the lone culprit for the struggles, playing 5 on 5 for 48 minutes would be an improvement, and playing a wing who can dribble, use a ball screen, use a dribble handoff, shoot a basketball off a dribble, collapse the D with a dribble, get to the foul line, demand the respect of a closeout, or make a low post move (he doesn't even attempt to do those things) would go a long way in improving the teams offense in terms of fluidity, ball movement, and being difficult to guard in general.

[hardenASG13]

face it. dre's not close to the biggest problem on the team right now. he's doing what he's supposed to do.

Say what you want about him, but his defense is consistently excellent and offensively, he's doing what he's capabale of. I don't blame him not taking those 3s.

Fun fact tho: While Russ is making 6.3 % (!!!) of his post up attempts (1.1 per game) and 29.1 % of his pull-up jumpers (8.5 per game). I'd much rather him taking better shots than yelling at Roberson for not taking bad ones.

Russ pull up jumper is one of his go to moves, he should be taking them. He needs to be better at them. I think he is hesitating slightly, as to not be a ballhog, and it's messing with his head and percentages. Smart money says he will snap out of that based on his career. His post ups haven't worked as well this year as last year either, doesn't mean he hasn't shown he can be successful there. I hope he can be once he loses half a step.

He yelled at Roberson because he expects an NBA level guard to be able to attempt an open jumper. Roberson should expect to be yelled at for passing up the shot. It kills a teams flow offensively when 1 guy is playing with 0 confidence, and Dre is the only wing in the NBA with 0 confidence. Has to be frustrating.

[slick_watts]

You live alone in a world where a guy who accounts for around 18 points offensively in 21 minutes per game is somehow a negative to the team.

is it the same world where this player was benched in consecutive playoff series because he was constantly exploited? i think you're in the minority re: kanter, pal. i expect kanter will not be starting for the knicks all season for many of the same reasons his minutes were impacted here.

You also live alone in a world where a starting shooting guard in the NBA who is so pathetic offensively that he doesn't even need to be guarded is somehow a positive to the team.

look man, if the team was bad when dre was in and the evidence pointed the other way, i'd be right there with you on this. if the evidence pointed toward kanter being a positive on the team, i'd be with you. there are simple ways to demonstrate whether or not these players are helpful. you're choosing to ignore them. the same exact thing is happening in new york that has happened everywhere kanter has been.

Tell you what slick...watch Roberson closely when OKC plays the Warriors this week and when they continually take Draymond Green (who will probably be his "defender") and either stand him by the lane clogging it or use him to run at the ballhandler and double team and truly understand all of the issues his pathetic offense causes.

you do not need to lecture me on dre's limitations. i'd like you to watch dre closely on defense. watch how he is constantly half way between his man and westbrook's (or melo's) and how often he correctly recovers to contest a shot or close a passing lane. like i said, you're not going to find anyone on this board who doesn't think dre has limitations on offense. i don't know why you keep beating that dead horse. but you refuse to acknowledge his impact (and, kanter's) on defense. do you watch defense?

Also watch as he tries to either guard KD or Thompson and I guarantee you whoever he is on will score 30 just like they did last year (KD averaged 37 and Thompson had 34 in the last game).

i don't care about counterpart scoring. i care about how the defense performs when he is in the game. which will probably be a lot better v. when he is out of the game.

[RalphSampsonJr]

Why is Roberson in the spotlight for the thunders struggle on offense?!
Crazy

Certainly not the spotlight, but they can't come close to reaching their ceiling when he's in the game.

He is so far worse than any other wing offensively (people argued he was better than guys like Marcus smart, Danny green, and TJ Warren with me last year!) that while he isnt the lone culprit for the struggles, playing 5 on 5 for 48 minutes would be an improvement, and playing a wing who can dribble, use a ball screen, use a dribble handoff, shoot a basketball off a dribble, collapse the D with a dribble, get to the foul line, demand the respect of a closeout, or make a low post move (he doesn't even attempt to do those things) would go a long way in improving the teams offense in terms of fluidity, ball movement, and being difficult to guard in general.

Im not gonna argue that he sucks on offense. He is not the main concern when it comes to whats happening with the thunder right now though.
Look at Abrines. whats he do when hes in? he should be used like Klay/Korver as soon as hes in but he cant even get the ball!

This is Billys lack of skill as a coach as far as im concerned. Three stars who dont wanna play team ball but just want to go one on one and have a pissing contest with their opponent while Billy does nothing.

Look at that last play against the Spurs. Billy cant create any type of effective set play. Abrines was inbounding the ball for godsake! WHY??????

The thunders defense is elite.
The thunders offense has gone from average to down right poor since we aquired two all stars. Robersons minutes are even down yet here we are at 7-8. He is not the problem.

[hardenASG13]

Why is Roberson in the spotlight for the thunders struggle on offense?!
Crazy

Certainly not the spotlight, but they can't come close to reaching their ceiling when he's in the game.

He is so far worse than any other wing offensively (people argued he was better than guys like Marcus smart, Danny green, and TJ Warren with me last year!) that while he isnt the lone culprit for the struggles, playing 5 on 5 for 48 minutes would be an improvement, and playing a wing who can dribble, use a ball screen, use a dribble handoff, shoot a basketball off a dribble, collapse the D with a dribble, get to the foul line, demand the respect of a closeout, or make a low post move (he doesn't even attempt to do those things) would go a long way in improving the teams offense in terms of fluidity, ball movement, and being difficult to guard in general.

Im not gonna argue that he sucks on offense. He is not the main concern when it comes to whats happening with the thunder right now though.
Look at Abrines. whats he do when hes in? he should be used like Klay/Korver as soon as hes in but he cant even get the ball!

This is Billys lack of skill as a coach as far as im concerned. Three stars who dont wanna play team ball but just want to go one on one and have a pissing contest with their opponent while Billy does nothing.

Look at that last play against the Spurs. Billy cant create any type of effective set play. Abrines was inbounding the ball for godsake! WHY??????

The thunders defense is elite.
The thunders offense has gone from average to down right poor since we aquired two all stars. Robersons minutes are even down yet here we are at 7-8. He is not the problem.

Agree it's very clear their lack of offensive system is what's killing them. That's been the okc way since I can remember. There was almost no change going from Brooks to Donovan. The Thunder way is stars go 1 on 1. Id love a new coach.

That said, again, from a coaching perspective, how do you design a team offense with a guy who can't attempt to do the things I mention as 1 of your wings. The offense, if it featured continual ball and player movement, would/does stall every time he touches it, as he can't dribble, use a screen or a handoff, or shoot a jumper or pull up. The defense doesn't rotate to him. So what people are wanting ( a flowing offensive system) is really hard to design when you feature a player like Roberson on the wing 20 plus min a night. They almost have to go iso by design, due to the defense not having to rotate and almost always having the floor overloaded from a help perspective.

[slick_watts]

You are blinded by your mancrush in your argument here. Does Westbrook take bad shots exclusively because of Roberson? Of course not. The Guy plays in constant attack mode, has since day 1 and it's why many people like him. That said If you don't think those guys force bad shots, instead of passing to an open Roberson, specifically under 10 on the shot clock, then you are in denial. Watch for it, it happens.

ok. so? how often does this happen? you went from blaming their poor shooting on dre to saying 'watch for it, it happens'. this is kind of a meaningless statement unless we know the frequency, no? the tools are out there for you to figure it out. stats.nba.com and nbawowy have shooting numbers based on distance (shot quality) and time left on the shot clock. or at least make up a frequency.

Are you attributing the run vs. The spurs to him going to the bench, when okc also dominated the stretch where he went to the bench in the first/start of the second? One could just as easily argue his reinsertion contributed to the start of the run, that extended in ugly fashion.

for someone who 'watches the games', you did not notice the change in baron's demeanor after this incident? the change in how we defended the spurs? the team allowed 140pp100 after that occurred. westbrook and melo had no interest in defense after that point.

He is a good help defender, to claim he is regularly guarding 2 guys is an absurd overstatement. He also regularly switches when he is screened, and the team in general has done a great job rotating defensively. To attribute Roberson for all their success defensively is a massive reach. George, grant, adams, etc. Have all been very good as well.

except it's not an overstatement. any time westbrook is screened and trailing the play, either dre or adams is defending to two guys and sometimes both. we have the 3rd best defense in the league mostly due to dre, adams, and george. i mean, you don't seem to care about this whatsoever or dre's part in it, despite this being an impact consistent with his presence in the lineup for years. dre is probably the best player in the nba at contesting a jump shot of someone else's man, recovering to the hip, and staying in the play. he saves westbrook 4-5 times a game doing this.

The minnesota games, where they "couldn't defend in the 4th quarter"?! Look at the actual results, not the D rating or pp100.

pp100 are the results if we are comparing scoring between lineups because it controls for pace. also, didn't we already discuss this? dre wouldn't have been re-inserted into either of these games until butler and wiggins came back in (and westbrook)- that's when we couldn't defend them. by looking at the entire fourth quarter here you're capturing reserve minutes which is not part of the discussion.

honestly, i'm getting a little tired of repeating myself, so i'm just going to link to earlier parts of the thread(s) when these topics come back up.

The Thunder in those 4th quarters? Won by 11 in game 1, scoring 38 points, and lost by 2 in the second game. Your argument is wrong, take off the blinders.

we are talking about minutes that dre would have been playing defending either wiggins or butler. not 'fourth quarter'. quarters are arbitrary cut-offs.

from the point wiggins and butler and westbrook were re-inserted into the game v. the wolves they scored 121pp100 which would be the best offense in the nba. and we only scored 108pp100. in those 18 minutes, grant did not even attempt a shot. felton attempted one and missed. abrines made a layup. so that's not a lot of productivity on offense (either from dre's replacement or the team in general) to make up for the issues on defense.

-micdrop-

[slick_watts]

That said, again, from a coaching perspective, how do you design a team offense with a guy who can't attempt to do the things I mention as 1 of your wings. The offense, if it featured continual ball and player movement, would/does stall every time he touches it, as he can't dribble, use a screen or a handoff, or shoot a jumper or pull up. The defense doesn't rotate to him. So what people are wanting ( a flowing offensive system) is really hard to design when you feature a player like Roberson on the wing 20 plus min a night. They almost have to go iso by design, due to the defense not having to rotate and almost always having the floor overloaded from a help perspective.

last year, after acquiring gibson, the thunder starters scored 109.1pp100. this year, the thunder starters are scoring 102.1pp100.

109.1pp100 is decent considering they were also the best defensive starters in the nba, and their 11.3pp100 scoring differential was best among all starting units in the league.

so ignoring all the subjective b.s. let us get to the meat of this. and that's the issue of the thunder replacing taj gibson with carmelo anthony- and replacing victor oladipo with paul george- and the thunder offense with the starters going from decent to downright pitiful.

andre roberson is a constant here. nothing with him has changed. the offense was fine with him in those units last season. so why is he getting the blame now?

it's because you're scapegoating him. the true culprit is baron westbrook, whose productivity offensively is a fraction of what it was last season. those are the facts.

[RalphSampsonJr]

That said, again, from a coaching perspective, how do you design a team offense with a guy who can't attempt to do the things I mention as 1 of your wings. The offense, if it featured continual ball and player movement, would/does stall every time he touches it, as he can't dribble, use a screen or a handoff, or shoot a jumper or pull up. The defense doesn't rotate to him. So what people are wanting ( a flowing offensive system) is really hard to design when you feature a player like Roberson on the wing 20 plus min a night. They almost have to go iso by design, due to the defense not having to rotate and almost always having the floor overloaded from a help perspective.

last year, after acquiring gibson, the thunder starters scored 109.1pp100. this year, the thunder starters are scoring 102.1pp100.

109.1pp100 is decent considering they were also the best defensive starters in the nba, and their 11.3pp100 scoring differential was best among all starting units in the league.

so ignoring all the subjective b.s. let us get to the meat of this. and that's the issue of the thunder replacing taj gibson with carmelo anthony- and replacing victor oladipo with paul george- and the thunder offense with the starters going from decent to downright pitiful.

andre roberson is a constant here. nothing with him has changed. the offense was fine with him in those units last season. so why is he getting the blame now?

it's because you're scapegoating him. the true culprit is baron westbrook, whose productivity offensively is a fraction of what it was last season. those are the facts.

Exactly.
Roberson should be low on the priority list on things that need to be changed at the moment.
Roberson has been apart of very effective offensive lineups. This lineup (on paper) has the most offensive fire power Roberson has ever played with yet here we are at 7-8.

Billy is my scapegoat.

Look at Victor and Sabonis. Both seem to be flourishing now. Its either Billy or Russ. im bias so im gonna say Billy

[hardenASG13]

That said, again, from a coaching perspective, how do you design a team offense with a guy who can't attempt to do the things I mention as 1 of your wings. The offense, if it featured continual ball and player movement, would/does stall every time he touches it, as he can't dribble, use a screen or a handoff, or shoot a jumper or pull up. The defense doesn't rotate to him. So what people are wanting ( a flowing offensive system) is really hard to design when you feature a player like Roberson on the wing 20 plus min a night. They almost have to go iso by design, due to the defense not having to rotate and almost always having the floor overloaded from a help perspective.

last year, after acquiring gibson, the thunder starters scored 109.1pp100. this year, the thunder starters are scoring 102.1pp100.

109.1pp100 is decent considering they were also the best defensive starters in the nba, and their 11.3pp100 scoring differential was best among all starting units in the league.

so ignoring all the subjective b.s. let us get to the meat of this. and that's the issue of the thunder replacing taj gibson with carmelo anthony- and replacing victor oladipo with paul george- and the thunder offense with the starters going from decent to downright pitiful.

andre roberson is a constant here. nothing with him has changed. the offense was fine with him in those units last season. so why is he getting the blame now?

it's because you're scapegoating him. the true culprit is baron westbrook, whose productivity offensively is a fraction of what it was last season. those are the facts.

The offense wasn't 'fine' with him. It was, and has been the same problem we are seeing now. While the lineups have rated well in the regular season, particularly against non contenders, it doesn't change the fact they were iso heavy relying on superstars to make something out of nothing every night. It often stalled against good teams, both last year and in years prior. Last year Russ was amazing. He and KD were for years before that. But to look at ratings, and say they have been fine with him in, is an over reliance on stats and a flat out denial of the fact that there offense has been good simply because they have had superstars. This year the stars are not shooting well, particularly Westbrook, and the flaws in the team not having an actual offense, relying on stars to bail them out, is being further magnified. It will be until they have a better system, which is much harder to design with his massive limitations.