All Things Luka Doncic

[J_T]

It's hard to tell that to someone who has been supporting himself and his family with betting on basketball for 20 years. Especially when I completely agree with them.

The playoff starts in April, not tomorrow. That will be a completely different team.

Olympiacos is currently placed second, playing at home and yet they are considered only 60% fav. if you think that's wrong, you can exploit it yourself. You can bet literally a million.

You can't fool mathematics. It's easy to calculate what home court advantage is worth and Real will probably be the fav in that playoff series even without home court advantage, as long as they will actually be the better team. I think they will be the better team, but of course it could be that they wouldn't be. Having no home court advantage is NOT end of the world.

The main point is that there is enough liquidity to support my view and allow me to hedge the bet so no risk there. We will see what actually happens.

I have enough “gambling” on stock exchange and I like odds much more there. But I have won back2back Euroleague fantasy in
last 2 years, so I have to know something above Euroleague.

Anything can happen. But mistake you and your friends are doing is, you’re predicting future results on old data. Real is with all injuries not the same team like it was 1 month ago. Real is the worst team in last 6 games in Euroleague. Before they start winning some games, you can’t calculate like they’re still one the best teams in Euroleague, because they’re not at the moment. in last month they have lost against Baskonia, Pao and Maccabi away and Khimki, Zvezda at home, and beat only Unicaja, not exactly that they played against the best teams in Euroleague. Just look at Real’s starting 5 and you can see that more than half teams have better starting 5. If they will continue to lose, it won’t even matter how they will play in April. And we don’t know in which position will Real be in March, when Llull and Ayon return and we don’t know how Llull and Ayon will look either. Calculations should be remade or you will have garbage in in garbage out situation.
About playoffs, it looks to me you don’t know some facts. Last year Fener was first team ever to go 0:2 up after 2 away games. And like I said, Bogdanovic looked like LeBron in this 2 nights. In last 4 years it’s 14:2 for teams with home court advantage. Pretty convincing. Saying all that, I’m big fan of Real Madrid and hope you and your friends are right and I’m wrong. But honestly I’m not believing that.. Bet on Real not coming in F4 looks incredible interesting if the odds are really that in favor of coming.

Again, if you think that Olympiacos at home is more than 60% fav right now against Real Madrid, I am sure you will not miss the opportunity to place (almost) sure bet. From what you are saying you must be thinking that the odds are too good.

As for relying on future improvements, when there are 20 rounds and 5 months to go - I think that's a reasonable assumption and I will not change my opinion for the moment. For every injured player there is timetable for return and this timetable tells me that their squad will be better in the future. Real Madrid started the season as top fav of the competition. When the players return I see no reason why they would not be considered best team in Europe again. I think that when the playoffs come, the team that gets home court advantage against them is going to be quite unhappy. I could even see teams trying to avoid Real in last round by resting best players. The reason why teams with home court advantage have been winning so convincingly has in my opinion a lot to do with the fact that teams with home court advantage are better than their opponents. If Real Madrid gets all their players back that would not be the case. Real Madrid will probably be the fav of the playoff series.

We will have to agree to disagree, I guess. Fortunately the future is always ahead of us, should be interesting.

[Bob8]

It's hard to tell that to someone who has been supporting himself and his family with betting on basketball for 20 years. Especially when I completely agree with them.

The playoff starts in April, not tomorrow. That will be a completely different team.

Olympiacos is currently placed second, playing at home and yet they are considered only 60% fav. if you think that's wrong, you can exploit it yourself. You can bet literally a million.

You can't fool mathematics. It's easy to calculate what home court advantage is worth and Real will probably be the fav in that playoff series even without home court advantage, as long as they will actually be the better team. I think they will be the better team, but of course it could be that they wouldn't be. Having no home court advantage is NOT end of the world.

The main point is that there is enough liquidity to support my view and allow me to hedge the bet so no risk there. We will see what actually happens.

I have enough “gambling” on stock exchange and I like odds much more there. But I have won back2back Euroleague fantasy in
last 2 years, so I have to know something above Euroleague.

Anything can happen. But mistake you and your friends are doing is, you’re predicting future results on old data. Real is with all injuries not the same team like it was 1 month ago. Real is the worst team in last 6 games in Euroleague. Before they start winning some games, you can’t calculate like they’re still one the best teams in Euroleague, because they’re not at the moment. in last month they have lost against Baskonia, Pao and Maccabi away and Khimki, Zvezda at home, and beat only Unicaja, not exactly that they played against the best teams in Euroleague. Just look at Real’s starting 5 and you can see that more than half teams have better starting 5. If they will continue to lose, it won’t even matter how they will play in April. And we don’t know in which position will Real be in March, when Llull and Ayon return and we don’t know how Llull and Ayon will look either. Calculations should be remade or you will have garbage in in garbage out situation.
About playoffs, it looks to me you don’t know some facts. Last year Fener was first team ever to go 0:2 up after 2 away games. And like I said, Bogdanovic looked like LeBron in this 2 nights. In last 4 years it’s 14:2 for teams with home court advantage. Pretty convincing. Saying all that, I’m big fan of Real Madrid and hope you and your friends are right and I’m wrong. But honestly I’m not believing that.. Bet on Real not coming in F4 looks incredible interesting if the odds are really that in favor of coming.

Again, if you think that Olympiacos at home is more than 60% fav right now against Real Madrid, I am sure you will not miss the opportunity to place (almost) sure bet. From what you are saying you must be thinking that the odds are too good.

As for relying on future improvements, when there are 20 rounds and 5 months to go - I think that's a reasonable assumption and I will not change my opinion for the moment. For every injured player there is timetable for return and this timetable tells me that their squad will be better in the future. Real Madrid started the season as top fav of the competition. When the players return I see no reason why they would not be considered best team in Europe again. I think that when the playoffs come, the team that gets home court advantage against them is going to be quite unhappy. I could even see teams trying to avoid Real in last round by resting best players. The reason why teams with home court advantage have been winning so convincingly has in my opinion a lot to do with the fact that teams with home court advantage are better than their opponents. If Real Madrid gets all their players back that would not be the case. Real Madrid will probably be the fav of the playoff series.

We will have to agree to disagree, I guess. Fortunately the future is always ahead of us, should be interesting.

Real for sure didn’t start as top favorite of the competition, because Llull was injured 2 months before the start of Euroleague, expected return in March. Yes, life is like a box of chocolate you never know what you gonna get. But I don’t believe that’s the way professional bookies look on things. Next 5 games will be very important for Real’s destiny in this season. And believe me, Real, if quality for top8, won’t be a favorite against Fener, Cska, Oly and Pao without home court advantage. Maybe only against some unexpected club in top4 after regular season.

About Oly game. This will be first game for Spanoulis, maybe bookies think, Oly will be worse with him.

[Mirotic12]

About Oly game. This will be first game for Spanoulis, maybe bookies think, Oly will be worse with him.

Spanoulis was out for 3 months with a knee injury. I doubt he plays more than 15 minutes or so. Probably 20 at the most. He couldn't possibly have his conditioning yet.

It's the same with this argument being made that once Llull and Ayon get back, that instantly Real starts winning a bunch of games........well, they will have to get back into shape too, and in Llull's case,it's highly unlikely he will even be 100% healthy.

The injury Llull had - players usually are not 100% healthy until at least a year later.

[Bob8]

About Oly game. This will be first game for Spanoulis, maybe bookies think, Oly will be worse with him.

Spanoulis was out for 3 months with a knee injury. I doubt he plays more than 15 minutes or so. Probably 20 at the most. He couldn't possibly have his conditioning yet.

It's the same with this argument being made that once Llull and Ayon get back, that instantly Real starts winning a bunch of games........well, they will have to get back into shape too, and in Llull's case,it's highly unlikely he will even be 100% healthy.

The injury Llull had - players usually are not 100% healthy until at least a year later.

I agree. I tried to explain all that and more, why Real can’t be considered as Top3 team. Real’s only fight at the moment is to stay in Top8, and with 1/6 in last games and the way they’re playing, it’s not the easiest task to accomplish.

Spanoulis looked very decent in Greek league last weekend. Knowing that Real simply can’t defend Pick&roll, his return can’t be good news for Real. And then comes Barca with Huertel and Seraphin + all shooters. Real’s biggest mistake was signing Tavares after injuries. He’s just a big three. I know Vidmar was expensive, but he would be much better solution for Real.

[J_T]

Real for sure didn’t start as top favorite of the competition, because Llull was injured 2 months before the start of Euroleague, expected return in March. Yes, life is like a box of chocolate you never know what you gonna get. But I don’t believe that’s the way professional bookies look on things.

Well, if you want to nitpick, yeah, Real in the week before first round was not top fav, it was second behind CSKA, with around 40 cents difference on average. I believe CSKA was around 3.50 and Real was around 3.75-4.00. I meant with Llull being healthy, Real was the fav during summer.

As for what the bookies think, we don't have to guess.

http://www.oddsportal.com/basketball/europe/euroleague/outrights/

Not only that Real is top 3, most bookies have them tied for second place with Fenerbahce. I did check couple of these odds on actual websites and they do offer them for betting, they are real odds. I hope this clarifies and we can move on.

[Bob8]

Real for sure didn’t start as top favorite of the competition, because Llull was injured 2 months before the start of Euroleague, expected return in March. Yes, life is like a box of chocolate you never know what you gonna get. But I don’t believe that’s the way professional bookies look on things.

Well, if you want to nitpick, yeah, Real in the week before first round was not top fav, it was second behind CSKA, with around 40 cents difference on average. I believe CSKA was around 3.50 and Real was around 3.75-4.00. I meant with Llull being healthy, Real was the fav during summer.

As for what the bookies think, we don't have to guess.

http://www.oddsportal.com/basketball/europe/euroleague/outrights/

Not only that Real is top 3, most bookies have them tied for second place with Fenerbahce. I did check couple of these odds on actual websites and they do offer them for betting, they are real odds. I hope this clarifies and we can move on.

Well, bookies are wrong. I wonder what were the odds for Zvezda beating Real in Madrid last week? Let’s see what will happen in December. Tomorrow Real has maybe the easiest game, nobody expect or demands the win against Oly. Maybe they can play relax and have a great game. But after that, things will become reality tense. El Classico against Barca, must win. Valencia, must win. Brose, must win. And then another psychologically easier games against Fener. 3 wins in December are almost must. Anything more would be great. Anything less near disaster. 2 wins minimum to have realistic chances for top8.

[J_T]

Well, more importantly, I was right about everything I said. The bookies could be wrong (I don't think they are in this case) but they are "thinking" exactly like I said. If they are wrong I am sure they will be hit hard by people who think more correctly. That's why Bet365 alone this year had revenues of almost 3 billion dollars. Let's see what their odds are... 4.00 for Real to win Euroleague, Fenerbahce 4.50, so they consider Real to be second fav.

I'm not trying to belittle anybody, I'm really not. But I know these things. If I have to pick between any single person's opinion and the liquidity of around 600 billion industry, I'll pick the latter and it's not personal at all. That's just me.

[Bob8]

Well, more importantly, I was right about everything I said. The bookies could be wrong (I don't think they are in this case) but they are "thinking" exactly like I said. If they are wrong I am sure they will be hit hard by people who think more correctly. That's why Bet365 alone this year had revenues of almost 3 billion dollars. Let's see what their odds are... 4.00 for Real to win Euroleague, Fenerbahce 4.50, so they consider Real to be second fav.

I'm not trying to belittle anybody, I'm really not. But I know these things. If I have to pick between any single person's opinion and the liquidity of around 600 billion industry, I'll pick the latter and it's not personal at all. That's just me.

But you said before, that your friend is beating the industry and make a living from that. Industry is winning because of mass, not because they’re right in every bet. If a single person is going against industry in 1 sports he knows, he can sure beat them and they will still make billions dollars. Who says that people working in industry know more about current situation in Euroleague than me? And it’s not everything about possibilities what will happen, but what people think it will happen, they’re placing their odds in a way, to risk as little possible. That means big clubs will always have better odds. Slovenia was 1:35 to win a Eurobasket. France, if I remember right, 1:8 or something like that. Was France without many Nba stars that better than Slovenia. Of course not. But bookies could afford it to pay small bets on Slovenia, it would be much more costly for them if France was 1:35 and won a tournament. As long the majority of people thinks like you, that Real is one of the best clubs inEuroleague, regardless roster, the odds will remain optimistic for Real making F4, when the sentiment changes, bookies will change their odds too.

The only important data at this moment is, that they’re 1/6 and having difficult schedule in last 5 games. 4:0 is a past, that was different team.

[J_T]

Wrote a long reply but I give up. It looks to me that I've backed sufficiently every claim I made. If you want to bet against Real making F4 go on, nobody is stopping you.

[XTraderXL]

Real for sure didn’t start as top favorite of the competition, because Llull was injured 2 months before the start of Euroleague, expected return in March. Yes, life is like a box of chocolate you never know what you gonna get. But I don’t believe that’s the way professional bookies look on things.

Well, if you want to nitpick, yeah, Real in the week before first round was not top fav, it was second behind CSKA, with around 40 cents difference on average. I believe CSKA was around 3.50 and Real was around 3.75-4.00. I meant with Llull being healthy, Real was the fav during summer.

As for what the bookies think, we don't have to guess.

http://www.oddsportal.com/basketball/europe/euroleague/outrights/

Not only that Real is top 3, most bookies have them tied for second place with Fenerbahce. I did check couple of these odds on actual websites and they do offer them for betting, they are real odds. I hope this clarifies and we can move on.

Well, bookies are wrong. I wonder what were the odds for Zvezda beating Real in Madrid last week? Let’s see what will happen in December. Tomorrow Real has maybe the easiest game, nobody expect or demands the win against Oly. Maybe they can play relax and have a great game. But after that, things will become reality tense. El Classico against Barca, must win. Valencia, must win. Brose, must win. And then another psychologically easier games against Fener. 3 wins in December are almost must. Anything more would be great. Anything less near disaster. 2 wins minimum to have realistic chances for top8.

So you think that if Real is 2 wins behind top 8 with 15 games to go, they dont have realistic chances for 8th spot at the end of regular season? Do you realize 15 games is 50% of the season? They can easily go on a 5 game winning streak and get to top 4 in a month. You are really overreacting, I am 99.9% sure Real will easily get to top 8 and if injured players are back in January, they will be in top 4 after 30 games. You sound like Real is 0-10 right now LOL

[Mirotic12]

The team the bookies pick, very rarely actually wins the title. In fact, as far as EuroLeague goes....the only time the bookies were right was when everyone knew ahead of time that one of the best teams was going to host the final four (and anyone could have guess that, because the home team always wins the final four)...........

In years where the final four is neutral...I can't remember the last time the bookies picked the right winner. So it really means absolutely nothing what the bookies are saying.

Yes, Real Madrid is one of the top 5 teams in EuroLeague on paper, and maybe top 3, if they are totally healthy. Yes, some bookies are picking them for whatever. Let's not pretend though that top 3 talent roster isn't old and injured, and inconsistent.

You have guys injured for a long time (Ayon, Llull), guys out totally (Kuzmic), guys that are clearly old and on a huge decline (Carroll, Maciulis), guys that can only play limited minutes (Rudy, Reyes), or guys that are very specific limited role players (Causeur, Taylor, Randle, Tavares, Thompkins)....combined with the lead players of Doncic and Campazzo that are not compatible with each other......and suddenly that top 3 team can easily lose to the 16th team talent wise of the league, as they did lose to that team, which is Red Star.

Regardless, the bookie odds definitely do not mean they are a strong mathematical favorite. That's not how the EuroLeague works, and it's never been how the EuroLeague works.

EuroLeague betting is nothing like NBA - it's more like NCAA tournament. I can't tell you for example, how many times the bookies picked CSKA to win the title, and they never did. Unlike with the NBA, where the bookies almost always have the winner or finalist runner-up right.

EuroLeague is very unpredictable, and anyone that's followed it long enough knows that. Yes, Real could win the title, but the way EuroLeague works...so could several teams, which in fact makes those betting odds fairly meaningless. I guarantee you that the bookies never had Olympiacos winning in 2012, never had Olympiacos winning in 2013, never had Maccabi winning in 2014...

As far as making the final four, as Bob8 is explaining, home court advantage is enormous in EuroLeague. The only teams I can remember winning a series without home court in the last 5-6 years were Fener last year (where for a couple games they played way above their heads) and Olympiacos twice, in 2012 and 2015 (mainly due to Spanoulis heroics).

It's overwhelming advantage in EuroLeague playoffs to the team with home court advantage. So yes, finishing in the top 4 is really important.

[Bob8]

Well, if you want to nitpick, yeah, Real in the week before first round was not top fav, it was second behind CSKA, with around 40 cents difference on average. I believe CSKA was around 3.50 and Real was around 3.75-4.00. I meant with Llull being healthy, Real was the fav during summer.

As for what the bookies think, we don't have to guess.

http://www.oddsportal.com/basketball/europe/euroleague/outrights/

Not only that Real is top 3, most bookies have them tied for second place with Fenerbahce. I did check couple of these odds on actual websites and they do offer them for betting, they are real odds. I hope this clarifies and we can move on.

Well, bookies are wrong. I wonder what were the odds for Zvezda beating Real in Madrid last week? Let’s see what will happen in December. Tomorrow Real has maybe the easiest game, nobody expect or demands the win against Oly. Maybe they can play relax and have a great game. But after that, things will become reality tense. El Classico against Barca, must win. Valencia, must win. Brose, must win. And then another psychologically easier games against Fener. 3 wins in December are almost must. Anything more would be great. Anything less near disaster. 2 wins minimum to have realistic chances for top8.

So you think that if Real is 2 wins behind top 8 with 15 games to go, they dont have realistic chances for 8th spot at the end of regular season? Do you realize 15 games is 50% of the season? They can easily go on a 5 game winning streak and get to top 4 in a month. You are really overreacting, I am 99.9% sure Real will easily get to top 8 and if injured players are back in January, they will be in top 4 after 30 games. You sound like Real is 0-10 right now LOL

I said minimum 2 wins, it should be realistic goal. If you want to see realistic picture of Real at the moment, you should discount 4:0 from the start of the season, after all injuries they’re different team now. They’re 1:6 after great start and if they win only 1 in next 5, they will be 2:11 and that won’t only show they’re pretty bad, but will mean thay have to win around 11/15 games in second half to go for sure in playoffs. And that’s pretty difficult with full team, but we know Llull and Ayon will probably be back only in March and nobody knows in what condition they will be. I still think thay have a realistic chance to do it, but they will need to start wining as soon as possible. In Piraeus would be the best.

[Mirotic12]

I said minimum 2 wins, it should be realistic goal. If you want to see realistic picture of Real at the moment, you should discount 4:0 from the start of the season, after all injuries they’re different team now. They’re 1:6 after great start and if they win only 1 in next 5, they will be 2:11 and that won’t only show they’re pretty bad, but will mean thay have to win around 11/15 games in second half to go for sure in playoffs. And that’s pretty difficult with full team, but we know Llull and Ayon will probably be back only in March and nobody knows in what condition they will be. I still think thay have a realistic chance to do it, but they will need to start wining as soon as possible. In Piraeus would be the best.

If they are going to beat Olympiacos, now is the time. Because Spanoulis comes off months being out (can't play much minutes and rusty), Mantzaris comes off an injury and isn't healthy, and Papapetrou and Agravanis are both out with injuries. Plus, Olympiacos has their own rotation player that is out for the season, in Tillie. So this might be Real's best chance to get a win right now, when they play another team that is also dealing with injury issues.

[Don7]

If they couldn't beat Zvezda , they for sure won't beat the bigger brother in Piraeus.

I know it's not the exact science but chances are slim.

[Bob8]

I said minimum 2 wins, it should be realistic goal. If you want to see realistic picture of Real at the moment, you should discount 4:0 from the start of the season, after all injuries they’re different team now. They’re 1:6 after great start and if they win only 1 in next 5, they will be 2:11 and that won’t only show they’re pretty bad, but will mean thay have to win around 11/15 games in second half to go for sure in playoffs. And that’s pretty difficult with full team, but we know Llull and Ayon will probably be back only in March and nobody knows in what condition they will be. I still think thay have a realistic chance to do it, but they will need to start wining as soon as possible. In Piraeus would be the best.

If they are going to beat Olympiacos, now is the time. Because Spanoulis comes off months being out (can't play much minutes and rusty), Mantzaris comes off an injury and isn't healthy, and Papapetrou and Agravanis are both out with injuries. Plus, Olympiacos has their own rotation player that is out for the season, in Tillie. So this might be Real's best chance to get a win right now, when they play another team that is also dealing with injury issues.

Tillie was injured in warmup of first game and didn’t played even a minute, but they’re still 8:2. The same goes with Spanoulis. And it’s not the same, if you have injured 4 starters( Taylor is stil questionable, but he might play) or 1 starter and bench players. Oly would have had similar problems like Real, if Printezis and Milutinov were longterm injured. Tomorrow the key will be how Real will defend pick&roll, control defensive rebounds and how they will stop Printezis. Thompkins is a black hole in D. and Maciulis former player. I guess they will again play a lot of zone and hope Oly won’t hit open 3s, but with Strelnieks in great form...

[Mirotic12]

Tillie was injured in warmup of first game and didn’t played even a minute, but they’re still 8:2. The same goes with Spanoulis. And it’s not the same, if you have injured 4 starters( Taylor is stil questionable, but he might play) or 1 starter and bench players. Oly would have had similar problems like Real, if Printezis and Milutinov were longterm injured. Tomorrow the key will be how Real will defend pick&roll, control defensive rebounds and how they will stop Printezis. Thompkins is a black hole in D. and Maciulis former player. I guess they will again play a lot of zone and hope Oly won’t hit open 3s, but with Strelnieks in great form...

The whole starters and bench thing is all American basketball. It has no bearing at all in European basketball. The best players on the team often come off the bench...league MVP has numerous times been a bench player.

It's not an issue of starters, it's the overall importance of the individual player. The best player could be a starter, or not. In case of Taylor for example, calling him a "starter" and implying that is the same as NBA terms, is very misleading. Even the 50% crippled version of current Rudy is a much better player than Taylor is.

Same issue with Olympiacos. Thompson, Milutinov are "starters".........yeah, but it's nothing at all like an NBA starter. Spanoulis, and McLean are better players than them, at the same position they play. It's also debatable between Papanikolaou, who starts and plays a s 2/3, and Strelnieks, who comes off the bench, as a 2.

This "starters" and "bench" thing is only for NBA. The best players are not divided up like that in European basketball. The coaches decide who starts and who comes off the bench based on match ups and game strategy, not a caste system created by the players, like in NBA.

[Bob8]

Tillie was injured in warmup of first game and didn’t played even a minute, but they’re still 8:2. The same goes with Spanoulis. And it’s not the same, if you have injured 4 starters( Taylor is stil questionable, but he might play) or 1 starter and bench players. Oly would have had similar problems like Real, if Printezis and Milutinov were longterm injured. Tomorrow the key will be how Real will defend pick&roll, control defensive rebounds and how they will stop Printezis. Thompkins is a black hole in D. and Maciulis former player. I guess they will again play a lot of zone and hope Oly won’t hit open 3s, but with Strelnieks in great form...

The whole starters and bench thing is all American basketball. It has no bearing at all in European basketball. The best players on the team often come off the bench...league MVP has numerous times been a bench player.

It's not an issue of starters, it's the overall importance of the individual player. The best player could be a starter, or not. In case of Taylor for example, calling him a "starter" and implying that is the same as NBA terms, is very misleading. Even the 50% crippled version of current Rudy is a much better player than Taylor is.

Same issue with Olympiacos. Strelnieks, Milutinov are "starters".........yeah, but it's nothing at all like an NBA starter. Spanoulis, and McLean are all better players than them at the same position they play. It's also debatable between Papanikolaou, who starts, and Thompson, who comes off the bench.

This "starters" and "bench" thing is only for NBA. The best players are not divided up like that in European basketball. The coaches decide who starts and who comes off the bench based on match ups and game strategy, not a caste system created by the players, like in NBA.

Please spare me with this. We all know how important are Llull, Ayon, Randolph. And how important are Tilie, Agravanis and Papapetrou. I can change starters in the most important players of Real, if you want.

[Mirotic12]

Please spare me with this. We all know how important are Llull, Ayon, Randolph. And how important are Tilie, Agravanis and Papapetru.

I'm keeping the discussion factual. Of course those players are more important. What is not factual is that it matters that they are starters. Starting or not has no importance in European basketball. And in fact, in NBA terms, no way would Taylor be a starter. Rudy plays his same position, and is way better than him (in NBA terms of a starter, 100% that would be Rudy and not Taylor). The point is, it's about just those players, not about starters, which is what is being said.

Actually, a lot of European coaches have asked their best player to come off the bench.

Also, to keep things accurate, Tillie would have been a major rotation player for Olympiacos, and he would have definitely been one of their most important players. His replacement, Kyle Wiltjer, really does almost nothing but shoot 3s.

[Bob8]

Please spare me with this. We all know how important are Llull, Ayon, Randolph. And how important are Tilie, Agravanis and Papapetru.

I'm keeping the discussion factual. Of course those players are more important. What is not factual is that it matters that they are starters. Starting or not has no importance in European basketball. And in fact, in NBA terms, no way would Taylor be a starter. Rudy plays his same position, and is way better than him (in NBA terms of a starter, 100% that would be Rudy and not Taylor). The point is, it's about just those players, not about starters, which is what is being said.

Actually, a lot of European coaches have asked their best player to come off the bench.

Please. Btw. Rudy is doubtful too.

[Mirotic12]

Please. Btw. Rudy is doubtful too.

Are you saying Taylor is better than Rudy? I can't believe anyone would think that.