Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron

[OdomFan]

Lebron for me has a Wilt Chamberlain legacy. Just like Wilt he has great stats that stand out but hasn't won enough to be the GOAT. He has to win a few more rings to get there. Going to the finals every year and losing does not make you the GOAT. It's an impressive achievement but you also have to factor in the difficulty of conference in which the East hasn't had a legit team that can challenge Lebron since the 2010 Celtics.

I don't hold the final losses against Lebron but at the same time I don't buy into the crap where people say it's not fair he has had to face great teams like the Warriors,Spurs in the finals and MJ never had to deal with it. It works both ways MJ had to deal with a stacked Eastern conference for the first several years of his career that had GOAT teams in the Pistons,Sixers,Celtics. The difference is instead of going to the finals and losing to the GOAT teams he lost to them in earlier rounds of the playoffs. They are so many greats who would have been considered the GOAT if they didn't have to face certain teams. Duncan would have had 8 rings instead of 5 if he didn't have to deal with the Lakers and you could say the same with Shaq and Kobe if didn't have to deal with the Duncan Spurs. Larry and Magic would have had more rings if they didn't have to face each other. All the guys I mention above their legacies are completely different if they never had to face their rivals. Stop making excuses for Lebron not winning enough. He still has plenty opportunities to win a few more considering if the Cavs don't win it this year I see him forming another super team somewhere else.

You're not giving MJ's finals opponents enough credit then. the 93 Suns and 98 Jazz both went 6 games with the Bulls with the finish coming down to a final basket that would have led to game 7 being on their home floors. Neither one of those teams are something Lebron and his crew would just run through either.

[The_Hater]

He's right. When you consider the talent and coaching MJ had around him, as well as the significantly weaker opposition in the Finals, I think it's clear the say LeBron has definitely surpassed MJ in stats as well as overall standing.

Lebron has had great talent around him post 10
Coaching sure, the talent disparity is not huge

For sure, although the 2015 finals team was decimated by injuries.

I think the biggest difference between the league that MJ played in and the one Bron plays in now is MJ didn't have a team nearly as good as the current Golden State team standing in his way during his prime. He road out the Celtic/Lakers/Pistons era and after that the Bulls had the best roster for every season he played from 1991 onward.

[taj2133]

Lebron for me has a Wilt Chamberlain legacy. Just like Wilt he has great stats that stand out but hasn't won enough to be the GOAT. He has to win a few more rings to get there. Going to the finals every year and losing does not make you the GOAT. It's an impressive achievement but you also have to factor in the difficulty of conference in which the East hasn't had a legit team that can challenge Lebron since the 2010 Celtics.

I don't hold the final losses against Lebron but at the same time I don't buy into the crap where people say it's not fair he has had to face great teams like the Warriors,Spurs in the finals and MJ never had to deal with it. It works both ways MJ had to deal with a stacked Eastern conference for the first several years of his career that had GOAT teams in the Pistons,Sixers,Celtics. The difference is instead of going to the finals and losing to the GOAT teams he lost to them in earlier rounds of the playoffs. They are so many greats who would have been considered the GOAT if they didn't have to face certain teams. Duncan would have had 8 rings instead of 5 if he didn't have to deal with the Lakers and you could say the same with Shaq and Kobe if didn't have to deal with the Duncan Spurs. Larry and Magic would have had more rings if they didn't have to face each other. All the guys I mention above their legacies are completely different if they never had to face their rivals. Stop making excuses for Lebron not winning enough. He still has plenty opportunities to win a few more considering if the Cavs don't win it this year I see him forming another super team somewhere else.

You're not giving MJ's finals opponents enough credit then. the 93 Suns and 98 Jazz both went 6 games with the Bulls with the finish coming down to a final basket that would have been on their home floors. Neither one of those teams are something Lebron and his crew would just run through either.

I actually agree I watched both of those finals as kid so I remember them pretty well.

[dabonett]

What is the goal? Winning or it’s like a show to impress?
If you want to win, Lebron is in the same tier of Curry not in MJ or even Kobe tier. It’s not a great winner, not worth a discussion.
If you want to view from an hedonistic point of view, sure it’s a joy to watch.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Jordan wasn't the one who bought superteam formations into the game. That was all Lebron. Therefore Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lerbon

So you've never heard of Bird's Celtics, Showtime Lakers, Russell Celtics, Pierce/Garnett/Allen Celtics, Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton Lakers, Malone/Dr J Sixers, Jordan/Pippen/Rodman Bulls... LeBron bought super team formations to the game.

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And which of those plotted with their boys to form a super team?
There's a difference between having a good front office and a player being a bitch that has to run to her friends to form a super team because she can't get the job done on her own

I'm always amazed that people embrace this argument so much. There is plenty of reason to critique LeBron, but his going to another team is one of the most absurd. It's not his fault the front office couldn't build a decent roster for him, and it would have been a stupid move for him to stay put.

They had no assets to trade to get better. They weren't going to get any decent draft picks because he was a guarantee to get them to the second round and have a top record in the league. Their coach was middling. He was banging his head against the wall against a super team in the Celtics, and even a spectacular series like the one against the Magic wasn't enough to make up for the deficiencies in his team. The Cavaliers were on a dead end road and that wasn't going to change.

Bird had a multiple HOF cast around him almost as soon as he entered the league. Magic immediately was playing next to a GOAT contender and quickly got more HOF and all NBA level help. Jordan only played three years before he was given a spectacular player to play with. LeBron stayed with the franchise seven years, had nothing and wasn't going to get anything any time soon.

I don't understand the preoccupation with how the team comes together. Everyone on top ten all time lists played with other HOFers when they were making their championship runs. Their teams were stacked with elite talent. It's as if to become an all time great you have to play with an all time great, yet people hold it against LeBron that he found a way to do that. The blame should be on the Cavs front office for failing to do their jobs effectively.

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[flow]

Which player would you rather have in a game 7?

There's your answer.

[711takeover]

Pippen is 6-0 too so Pippen = Jordan?

No dumba$$... rings isn't the only argument but it damn sure helps when comparing two similar players. If rings only matter Robert Horry would be a top 5 player.

Oh so you're saying context is important? You guys can't have it both ways. You can't say "Michael is 6-0 therefore he is the best" while failing to acknowledge the context in which LeBron has lost in the finals.

The 90s were an unquestionably watered down league with the Celtics, Lakers, Detroit, and 76ers in decline, the international market barely beginning to take shape and six expansion teams between when Jordan was drafted and when he won his last championship. The Bulls were by far the best team in the 90s. Jordan never had to face a team like Golden State and he's never had a finals performance like LeBron did in 2016 beating the greatest regular season team of all-time. LeBron should be held accountable for such a poor finals performance in 2011 but the Mavericks were still a very good team and so were both Spurs teams he lost to.

He actually had better performances in the Finals than LeBron, that's why this is comical.

He averaged 41 PPG, 8.5 RPG, and 6.3 APG on 50.8% FG and 40% 3PT in a 4-2 win vs the Suns.
He averaged 31.2 PPG, 6.6 RPG, and 11.4 APG on 55.8% FG and 50% 3PT in a 4-1 win vs the Lakers.

Sure, LeBron had a great finals vs GS 2016 averaging 29.7 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 8.9 APG on 49.4% FG and 37.1% 3PT. I still fail to see how that's better than MJ's finals listed above. I don't think you'd be hearing MJ say "I'm averaging a triple double I'm fine" when asked how he's feeling about being down 3-0.

[711takeover]

Which player would you rather have in a game 7?

There's your answer.

Well MJ never had to go to a game 7 so i guess the answer is LeBron

[loserX]

So you've never heard of Bird's Celtics, Showtime Lakers, Russell Celtics, Pierce/Garnett/Allen Celtics, Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton Lakers, Malone/Dr J Sixers, Jordan/Pippen/Rodman Bulls... LeBron bought super team formations to the game.

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And which of those plotted with their boys to form a super team?
There's a difference between having a good front office and a player being a bitch that has to run to her friends to form a super team because she can't get the job done on her own

I'm always amazed that people embrace this argument so much. There is plenty of reason to critique LeBron, but his going to another team is one of the most absurd. It's not his fault the front office couldn't build a decent roster for him, and it would have been a stupid move for him to stay put.

They had no assets to trade to get better. They weren't going to get any decent draft picks because he was a guarantee to get them to the second round and have a top record in the league. Their coach was middling. He was banging his head against the wall against a super team in the Celtics, and even a spectacular series like the one against the Magic wasn't enough to make up for the deficiencies in his team. The Cavaliers were on a dead end road and that wasn't going to change.

Bird had a multiple HOF cast around him almost as soon as he entered the league. Magic immediately was playing next to a GOAT contender and quickly got more HOF and all NBA level help. Jordan only played three years before he was given a spectacular player to play with. LeBron stayed with the franchise seven years, had nothing and wasn't going to get anything any time soon.

I don't understand the preoccupation with how the team comes together. Everyone on top ten all time lists played with other HOFers when they were making their championship runs. Their teams were stacked with elite talent. It's as if to become an all time great you have to play with an all time great, yet people hold it against LeBron that he found a way to do that. The blame should be on the Cavs front office for failing to do their jobs effectively.

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Bingo. It's a weird employer-employee dynamic that we have in this culture (a profound sociological issue that I could ramble about, but won't ).

If the employer decides to build the best team he can, that's his job and he should be lauded for doing it.

If the employees do it, they are cheaters and cowards who should be drawn and quartered in the public square.

[711takeover]

If you roll back 4 years and did this comparison, 95% will say Jordan easily. Now fast forward to 2017, I'm starting to see a shift and it's about 50/50 now. If we go forward another 4 years with Lebron playing at this level and if he gets a couple more rings, I'm pretty certain it will continue to follow this trend. It's inevitable!

I mean it's a 50-50 split on RealGm General Board lol. Majority of media after this past finals loss all proclaimed that the argument is done

[Warren G]

Lebron is 32 and has gone 3-5 in the finals.

At 32 Jordan set the all time W-L regular season record, then swept the defending East finalist in the conference finals. That team had Shaq, and Shaq is one of the guys who threepeated since then.

Jordan ended up threepeating again and played all 82 games during the second threepeat. Lebron takes days off for the grueling playoff gauntlet of coach Bud's Hawks, Lowry and DeRozan, and a 5'7''pg and.. Al "Softer than ****" Horford.

It's not his fault he's not good enough to dominate in every finals like it was the 2016 Warriors.

[JonFromVA]

So you've never heard of Bird's Celtics, Showtime Lakers, Russell Celtics, Pierce/Garnett/Allen Celtics, Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton Lakers, Malone/Dr J Sixers, Jordan/Pippen/Rodman Bulls... LeBron bought super team formations to the game.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

And which of those plotted with their boys to form a super team?
There's a difference between having a good front office and a player being a bitch that has to run to her friends to form a super team because she can't get the job done on her own

I'm always amazed that people embrace this argument so much. There is plenty of reason to critique LeBron, but his going to another team is one of the most absurd. It's not his fault the front office couldn't build a decent roster for him, and it would have been a stupid move for him to stay put.

They had no assets to trade to get better. They weren't going to get any decent draft picks because he was a guarantee to get them to the second round and have a top record in the league. Their coach was middling. He was banging his head against the wall against a super team in the Celtics, and even a spectacular series like the one against the Magic wasn't enough to make up for the deficiencies in his team. The Cavaliers were on a dead end road and that wasn't going to change.

Bird had a multiple HOF cast around him almost as soon as he entered the league. Magic immediately was playing next to a GOAT contender and quickly got more HOF and all NBA level help. Jordan only played three years before he was given a spectacular player to play with. LeBron stayed with the franchise seven years, had nothing and wasn't going to get anything any time soon.

I don't understand the preoccupation with how the team comes together. Everyone on top ten all time lists played with other HOFers when they were making their championship runs. Their teams were stacked with elite talent. It's as if to become an all time great you have to play with an all time great, yet people hold it against LeBron that he found a way to do that. The blame should be on the Cavs front office for failing to do their jobs effectively.

Probably because the Cavs won 60+ games the two seasons before James bolted. It's similar to the situation KD walked out on in OKC, except Westbrook is held in higher regard even though Mo Williams was an easier fit playing off the ball with LeBron. Ferry couldn't land a big star (hard to do when your best asset is JJ Hickson, James won't commit, and you play in Cleveland) but he did bring in players who fit so well with James that in 08/'09 that 66-win team's +10.0 net rating beat every other team James has played on. Bringing in Shaq and Antawn weren't the wisest choices that next year, but Ferry was still thinking about how they'd deal with Orlando but instead got the Celtics.

I've felt since 2010 that it was when LeBron hurt his elbow that he realized how much he'd been propping up the team, and that they just couldn't do anything without him playing at 200%. That's the luxury having those other stars bring - James can have a bad game or a minor injury, etc, and in theory the team can still win; but by the end in Miami he was back in the role of having to prop-up the team.

[Johnny Kilroy]

This finals comparison is nonsense. The 97 and 98 jazz were better than any team LeBron faced. They were a team for the ages. I don't think any team in history would have beat Stockton/Malone/Sloan at that time. And don't forget, in 98 they were favored to beat Chicago.

96 was the best two records matched up ever. Sonics did that vs a minefield in the west, one that is much stronger than today's west.

93 suns would demolish the comp in today's league.

92 blazers, who is going to stop them with these rules?

91 Lakers still had a prime magic, second best player ever since the modern era. LeBron never suited up against someone of his stature.

[Zeitgeister]

No dumba$$... rings isn't the only argument but it damn sure helps when comparing two similar players. If rings only matter Robert Horry would be a top 5 player.

Oh so you're saying context is important? You guys can't have it both ways. You can't say "Michael is 6-0 therefore he is the best" while failing to acknowledge the context in which LeBron has lost in the finals.

The 90s were an unquestionably watered down league with the Celtics, Lakers, Detroit, and 76ers in decline, the international market barely beginning to take shape and six expansion teams between when Jordan was drafted and when he won his last championship. The Bulls were by far the best team in the 90s. Jordan never had to face a team like Golden State and he's never had a finals performance like LeBron did in 2016 beating the greatest regular season team of all-time. LeBron should be held accountable for such a poor finals performance in 2011 but the Mavericks were still a very good team and so were both Spurs teams he lost to.

He actually had better performances in the Finals than LeBron, that's why this is comical.

He averaged 41 PPG, 8.5 RPG, and 6.3 APG on 50.8% FG and 40% 3PT in a 4-2 win vs the Suns.
He averaged 31.2 PPG, 6.6 RPG, and 11.4 APG on 55.8% FG and 50% 3PT in a 4-1 win vs the Lakers.

Sure, LeBron had a great finals vs GS 2016 averaging 29.7 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 8.9 APG on 49.4% FG and 37.1% 3PT. I still fail to see how that's better than MJ's finals listed above. I don't think you'd be hearing MJ say "I'm averaging a triple double I'm fine" when asked how he's feeling about being down 3-0.

LeBron had a transcendent performance on defense in that series, it wasn't just the offense, and the fact that he was playing what is arguably an all-time great team matters too.

[JonFromVA]

Lebron for me has a Wilt Chamberlain legacy. Just like Wilt he has great stats that stand out but hasn't won enough to be the GOAT. He has to win a few more rings to get there.

Wilt's legacy must be getting lost because while he never had a problem putting up stats, what he had a problem with was balancing his play with his teammates to create the sort of synergy that lifts a team beyond the sum of those stats. James came in to the league with a balanced mindset and has been making his team far better than the sum of it's parts for his entire career. As for MJ, you have to credit Phil and the Triangle for making sure that his teammates got involved in the game or else Jordan would have gone down like Wilt.

Going to the finals every year and losing does not make you the GOAT. It's an impressive achievement but you also have to factor in the difficulty of conference in which the East hasn't had a legit team that can challenge Lebron since the 2010 Celtics.

The way James curb-stomped those teams has something to do with how they're perceived, though. If James had come in to the league earlier and prevented the Big Ben Pistons from winning a championship, wouldn't they have ended up being viewed like the Hawks? the Magic? the Celtics? etc...

Or to put it another way ... losing before even reaching the finals does not make you the GOAT either.

[711takeover]

Underrated that Jordan and Kobe only won with a HOF coach in Phil Jackson but Lebron had Mike Brown, David Blatt, and now Ty Lue. Only real coach Lebron had was Spo but Spo didn't win a ring as a head coach either on his own.

Yeah man Phil Jackson made both of them

[Long2s]

He's right. When you consider the talent and coaching MJ had around him, as well as the significantly weaker opposition in the Finals, I think it's clear the say LeBron has definitely surpassed MJ in stats as well as overall standing.

Lebron has had great talent around him post 10
Coaching sure, the talent disparity is not huge

For sure, although the 2015 finals team was decimated by injuries.

I think the biggest difference between the league that MJ played in and the one Bron plays in now is MJ didn't have a team nearly as good as the current Golden State team standing in his way during his prime. He road out the Celtic/Lakers/Pistons era and after that the Bulls had the best roster for every season he played from 1991 onward.

Ludicrous claim.

Payton 19-8-3
Kemp 19-11
Schrempf 17-5-4
Hawkings 16-5
Perkins 12-5

vs

Jordan 30-6-6
Pippen 19-6-6
Longley 9-5
Harper 7-3
Rodman 5-15

How is the Bulls a better roster?

Jordan made them the better roster.

Swap MJ for Payton, who has the best roster now do you think? Does Payton make up for Rodman's 5ppg?

Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Cedric Ceballos, Dan Majerle, Danny Ainge, Tom Chambers, Richard Dumars, all scoring in double figures.

That's a stacked team!

Vets like Chambers, Ainge, Mark West. Young athletic scorers like Dumars, Ceballos, KJ. 1st team defense in Dan Majerle. Cedric Ceballos scorer 21ppg in 2 seasons with the Lakers when he left them. KJ suffered injuries but had 20-10 at 30 years old in 1996-97, you know, when Kobe was coming off the bench for the Lakers! Tom Chambers was an absolute stud (with one of the best dunks ever) and only 3 seasons removed from scoring 27ppg. Richard Dumas got kicked from the league for drugs, but was a beast and you would know his name today if he hadn't. Supremely athletic with a killer midrange.

[Warren G]

Worst record in the West today Carlisle beat Bron in the Finals leaning heavily on Jason Kidd (38 at the time, 17th season in the league) and Deshawn Stevenson (out of the league 2 years later) in Bron's second finals when Bron was there with his hand picked collusion team.

If you're getting D-ed up by old Kidd and a marginal NBA talent and still choke....

[RaptorsLife]

Lebron is the goat

[AndriPerdhian93]

I'm sorry but Lebron's performance against the Mavs in the 2011 finals make this not even a conversation for me.

Aye jordan flu game, you see how stacked da bull is.