Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats

[PaulieWal]

Please link us to all of his wonderful fitness post moves. I can watch on my phone.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Youtube is pretty easy. Just type what you're looking for.

See this is what I'm talking about. Poor footwork. If by postgame, you mean a sloppy hook shot from time to time, or backing down his opponents and then spinning, then sure. Kobe had footwork and touch. It was natural and consistently used.

A post game is a post game even if you think it looks ugly. There have been seasons when LeBron has been the a top 2 or 3 best player scoring wise from the post statistically (2013, 2014 off the top of my head), not to mention the post isn't just about scoring but also creating scoring opportunities for the shooters and LeBron is the best at that in the game (IE passing out of the post to the open man). IIRC he did dip quite a bit in 2015, although I'd guess he's back up there in 2017.

You can't just say stuff like he has no post game when he clearly does just because you think it's not refined or finessed. That adds nothing to the conversation and that's why many find you biased, not because you simply think MJ or anyone else is a better player than LeBron.

[Xherdan 23]

Please link us to all of his wonderful fitness post moves. I can watch on my phone.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Youtube is pretty easy. Just type what you're looking for.

See this is what I'm talking about. Poor footwork. If by postgame, you mean a sloppy hook shot from time to time, or backing down his opponents and then spinning, then sure. Kobe had footwork and touch. It was natural and consistently used.

And as usual, style over substance. Kobe had a better looking post game, alright? So what? LeBron's game is ugly but it's effective.
Now your problem isn't that LeBron doesn't have a post game, it's that his hook shot is sloppy

You're really missing the career one of the best basketball players in history just because you decided you don't like him and you like living in the past. If you really like basketball I feel bad for you for missing it.

[dhsilv2]

For those asking earlier. Kobe and Lebron stats by points scored in a game.

A few small interesting things. Kobe as expected has more 40 and 50 point games, both in total impact and as a percentage of games played. That said leborn has a meaningfully higher rate of scoring at least 30 points in a game (38.8% of his career games vs 33.1% from Kobe).

Lebron has higher than career average assists when scoring more than 40. Kobe is the opposite.

40 mean 40 or more, including the 50 point games btw.

[Long2s]

PaulieWal, you're a mod, I'd ask you not to clutter my thread with offtopic comments.

I want this thread to stay open.

That goes for the rest of you. This is about Kobe/Lebron/MJ clutch debate, not a general Kobe vs MJ vs Lebron.

Please don't derail my thread.

PaulieWal, I would ask you to delete the off topic posts made by you and others in the thread.

[Baski]

For those asking earlier. Kobe and Lebron stats by point scored in a game.

A few small interesting things. Kobe as expected has more 40 and 50 point games, both in total impact and as a percentage of games played. That said leborn has a meaningfully higher rate of scoring at least 30 points in a game (38.8% of his career games vs 33.1% from Kobe).

Lebron has higher than career average assists when scoring more than 40. Kobe is the opposite.

Thanks for this.

The results are surprisingly more in LeBron's favor than i expected. And that assist difference, *whistle*

Crazy that it's so hard for some people to imagine LeBron increasing his FGA and dropping his TS% to Kobe level for a few extra points per game. Apparently that's something only Kobe and Jordan could do.

[PaulieWal]

PaulieWal, you're a mod, I'd ask you not to clutter my thread with offtopic comments.

I want this thread to stay open.

That goes for the rest of you. This is about Kobe/Lebron/MJ clutch debate, not a general Kobe vs MJ vs Lebron.

Please don't derail my thread.

PaulieWal, I would ask you to delete the off topic posts made by you and others in the thread.

You are derailing your own thread with this post and backseat modding to boot.

[bledredwine]

For those asking earlier. Kobe and Lebron stats by point scored in a game.

A few small interesting things. Kobe as expected has more 40 and 50 point games, both in total impact and as a percentage of games played. That said leborn has a meaningfully higher rate of scoring at least 30 points in a game (38.8% of his career games vs 33.1% from Kobe).

Lebron has higher than career average assists when scoring more than 40. Kobe is the opposite.

Thanks for this.

The results are surprisingly more in LeBron's favor than i expected. And that assist difference, *whistle*

Crazy that it's so hard for some people to imagine LeBron increasing his FGA and dropping his TS% to Kobe level for a few extra points per game. Apparently that's something only Kobe and Jordan could do.

A few points per game? Kobe averaged 35. If love to see Lebron attempt that. Look at how much he struggles to get his post moves off. That's my point. Kobe had efficient footwork. No way can Lebron pull that off, hence the .396 FG% against the Spurs when he had to score more. When he's defended well, Lebron struggles.

[Xherdan 23]

For those asking earlier. Kobe and Lebron stats by point scored in a game.

A few small interesting things. Kobe as expected has more 40 and 50 point games, both in total impact and as a percentage of games played. That said leborn has a meaningfully higher rate of scoring at least 30 points in a game (38.8% of his career games vs 33.1% from Kobe).

Lebron has higher than career average assists when scoring more than 40. Kobe is the opposite.

Thanks for this.

The results are surprisingly more in LeBron's favor than i expected. And that assist difference, *whistle*

Crazy that it's so hard for some people to imagine LeBron increasing his FGA and dropping his TS% to Kobe level for a few extra points per game. Apparently that's something only Kobe and Jordan could do.

A few points per game? Kobe averaged 35. If love to see Lebron attempt that. Look at how much he struggles to get his post moves off. That's my point. Kobe had efficient footwork. No way can Lebron pull that off, hence the .396 FG% against the Spurs when he had to score more. When he's defended well, Lebron struggles.

What are you talking about? The same season Kobe averaged 35 LeBron averaged 31 on 4 less shots. You don't think LeBron could score 4 more points if he took 4 more shots?

[Baski]

Thanks for this.

The results are surprisingly more in LeBron's favor than i expected. And that assist difference, *whistle*

Crazy that it's so hard for some people to imagine LeBron increasing his FGA and dropping his TS% to Kobe level for a few extra points per game. Apparently that's something only Kobe and Jordan could do.

A few points per game? Kobe averaged 35. If love to see Lebron attempt that. Look at how much he struggles to get his post moves off. That's my point. Kobe had efficient footwork. No way can Lebron pull that off, hence the .396 FG% against the Spurs when he had to score more. When he's defended well, Lebron struggles.

What are you talking about? The same season Kobe averaged 35 LeBron averaged 31 on 4 less shots. You don't think LeBron could score 4 more points if he took 4 more shots?

Muh midrange, muh feetzworks, muh postups

[Baski]

A few points per game? Kobe averaged 35. If love to see Lebron attempt that. Look at how much he struggles to get his post moves off. That's my point. Kobe had efficient footwork. No way can Lebron pull that off, hence the .396 FG% against the Spurs when he had to score more.

Your point keeps changing though. Plus you're ignoring my other posts. I'm really interested in hearing how you justify calling Kobe a better playoff scorer given the data i showed you, and how Durant outscoring LeBron in the clutch makes him worse than Kobe who was also bad in the clutch in 09 and 10. I'll say it again: for all of Kobe's footwork, post game and midrange, he still shot terribly in every single finals he played in from 04 till 10, especially in the clutch.

And am i the only one who doesn't know about this 35ppg on .396 shooting series against the Spurs? What year was this? I addressed this as well but you ignored it.

When he's defended well, Lebron struggles.

And Kobe doesn't? This is still a comparison between LeBron and the career 40% finals shooter right?

[dhsilv2]

For those asking earlier. Kobe and Lebron stats by point scored in a game.

A few small interesting things. Kobe as expected has more 40 and 50 point games, both in total impact and as a percentage of games played. That said leborn has a meaningfully higher rate of scoring at least 30 points in a game (38.8% of his career games vs 33.1% from Kobe).

Lebron has higher than career average assists when scoring more than 40. Kobe is the opposite.

Thanks for this.

The results are surprisingly more in LeBron's favor than i expected. And that assist difference, *whistle*

Crazy that it's so hard for some people to imagine LeBron increasing his FGA and dropping his TS% to Kobe level for a few extra points per game. Apparently that's something only Kobe and Jordan could do.

A few points per game? Kobe averaged 35. If love to see Lebron attempt that. Look at how much he struggles to get his post moves off. That's my point. Kobe had efficient footwork. No way can Lebron pull that off, hence the .396 FG% against the Spurs when he had to score more. When he's defended well, Lebron struggles.

That's 4 points per game more than Lebron did at his highest scoring season. Kobe has averaged 30+ 3 times in his career, Lebron twice with a 29.7 also in there. The difference in their scoring volume is immaterial, and it is Lebron who averages more points per possession over his career.

[LeBird]

People like bledredwine just make converts to the LeBron camp, even if you were indifferent.

How people can ignore straightforward logic and facts to still hype Kobe is a testament to the ego and collective delusion that can be brought about via nothing more than myths.

Kobe beats LeBron from the free throw line and is markedly inferior whenever/whereever else. This isn't even close.

[Baski]

People like bledredwine just make converts to the LeBron camp, even if you were indifferent.

How people can ignore straightforward logic and facts to still hype Kobe is a testament to the ego and collective delusion that can be brought about via nothing more than myths.

Yeah it's weird. I saw some post by him about how annoying it is to watch people just disrespect Jordan constantly, so i thought he wasn't the type to do the same to other greats. He seems to know his Jordan lore, but with LeBron, he just says anything to put him down, without any backing whatsoever. Like believing LeBron James can score multiple 50pt games is the same as believing Derozan can average 40. What the hell?
He doesn't even know which team LeBron had his 36 ppg on 40% shooting series against. That's about as blind as hatred gets.

[Baski]

Thanks for this.

The results are surprisingly more in LeBron's favor than i expected. And that assist difference, *whistle*

Crazy that it's so hard for some people to imagine LeBron increasing his FGA and dropping his TS% to Kobe level for a few extra points per game. Apparently that's something only Kobe and Jordan could do.

A few points per game? Kobe averaged 35. If love to see Lebron attempt that. Look at how much he struggles to get his post moves off. That's my point. Kobe had efficient footwork. No way can Lebron pull that off, hence the .396 FG% against the Spurs when he had to score more. When he's defended well, Lebron struggles.

That's 4 points per game more than Lebron did at his highest scoring season. Kobe has averaged 30+ 3 times in his career, Lebron twice with a 29.7 also in there. The difference in their scoring volume is immaterial, and it is Lebron who averages more points per possession over his career.

You know i bet he didn't even know that. He probably just thinks Lebron tops oit at like 28ppg or something, because that's the only way his comment makes sense, and it would fit right in with his other comments in the thread. He just "knows" Kobe has to be better, so he makes comments to that effect without even checking.

[Long2s]

A few points per game? Kobe averaged 35. If love to see Lebron attempt that. Look at how much he struggles to get his post moves off. That's my point. Kobe had efficient footwork. No way can Lebron pull that off, hence the .396 FG% against the Spurs when he had to score more. When he's defended well, Lebron struggles.

What are you talking about? The same season Kobe averaged 35 LeBron averaged 31 on 4 less shots. You don't think LeBron could score 4 more points if he took 4 more shots?

Muh midrange, muh feetzworks, muh postups

Muh adaption of a racist meme.

[CoffeeCakez]

Not about Jordan? Who's names are in the title of the thread? As long as Lebron fans are calling clutch stats arbitrary, something that they seem to use against Kobe all of the time, I will argue otherwise. Jordan is an ideal example to use and is obviously a part of this.

Yeah i said if we're being honest, this thread really isn't about MJ at all. It's clear that OP wanted to use it to show that LeBron is not clutch while Kobe is. Jordan was just added to make it looked less biased. This is like comparing the 3pt shooting ability of LeBron, Kobe and Curry for example. One of the three is clearly above the rest, and it's really going to be a discussion about the other two.
And again if we're being honest, all these clutch statistics used by "LeBron fans" are the response to Kobe fans constantly proclaiming what a killer, assassin, mamba and whatever else Kobe was in the fourth quarter of every game, and how LeBron was the exact opposite of that.
If we're being truly honest, Kobe's legendary career gave rise to a lot of overrating of his actual clutch ability, at least in comparison to other all time greats, especially LeBron.

Again Jordan is easily better than both in those situations, and as this thread has shown by how few, if any, posts actually place him below any of the other two, the discussion is really about LeBron vs Kobe.

This discussion is about 3 players who arguably have had the MOST fanfare worldwide and are thus the most talked about players.

So kobe is overrated in the clutch when compared to LeBron? funny you say that when the data in the OP states otherwise, and its a pretty decent shot sample when compared to looking at just game tying/winning shots by both in the playoffs (which is a sample of just ~20 or so shots)

We could analyze every single playoff game that both kobe and lebron played in look at the play by play in close games in the last few minutes or better yet, watch the videos but that would be a daunting task. But we don't need to go that far, Lebron's performance in the 2011 finals itself should ideally re-affirm the notion that he isn't as clutch as kobe or jordan and cement it as a fact. Nevermind the fact that he only scored a whopping 8 points in a finals game - he also mentally checked out and did not even show heart and EFFORT in some of those games. Unfortunately, stat sheets don't show body language but you can tell he was out of it and wanted to leave the court asap. That to me is unacceptable and should destroy any media comparison of him being 'clutch' by any means whatsoever.

[dhsilv2]

A few points per game? Kobe averaged 35. If love to see Lebron attempt that. Look at how much he struggles to get his post moves off. That's my point. Kobe had efficient footwork. No way can Lebron pull that off, hence the .396 FG% against the Spurs when he had to score more. When he's defended well, Lebron struggles.

That's 4 points per game more than Lebron did at his highest scoring season. Kobe has averaged 30+ 3 times in his career, Lebron twice with a 29.7 also in there. The difference in their scoring volume is immaterial, and it is Lebron who averages more points per possession over his career.

You know i bet he didn't even know that. He probably just thinks Lebron tops oit at like 28ppg or something, because that's the only way his comment makes sense, and it would fit right in with his other comments in the thread. He just "knows" Kobe has to be better, so he makes comments to that effect without even checking.

Reading comments here about Jordan and Lebron sometimes I'm not sure that people can see past style and substance. And I'm convinced when they start posting about Kobe as if he's an equal to either of the other two. Kobe was certainly smooth, fluid, and well he was like a ballerina on the court. But the results? They were great, but not at the level of either of the other two.

[CoffeeCakez]

If I go for a last shot, I actually choose Kobe. His ability to create a shot that he has a chance of making is second to none.

LeBron has made three playoff buzzer beaters against Chicago, Indiana and Orlando. Kobe only made one against the Suns.

LeBron is better on game tying and go ahead with 5 seconds, 10 seconds and 24 seconds. Not just a better percentage, but more baskets made. So if you want a missed shot in those situations going with Kobe is a solid plan,but if you want a made shot go with LeBron. There really is no argument to be made there unless you want to flat out ignore actual results.

so 7/17 vs 7/28 and 6 FGM vs 5 FGM is substantially more baskets made and therefore affirms that LeBron would be the go to guy for the last shot?

thats an awfully small sample size and isn't significant in anyway. The data in the OP has a much better sample size and is therefore more meaningful

[CoffeeCakez]

That's 4 points per game more than Lebron did at his highest scoring season. Kobe has averaged 30+ 3 times in his career, Lebron twice with a 29.7 also in there. The difference in their scoring volume is immaterial, and it is Lebron who averages more points per possession over his career.

You know i bet he didn't even know that. He probably just thinks Lebron tops oit at like 28ppg or something, because that's the only way his comment makes sense, and it would fit right in with his other comments in the thread. He just "knows" Kobe has to be better, so he makes comments to that effect without even checking.

Reading comments here about Jordan and Lebron sometimes I'm not sure that people can see past style and substance. And I'm convinced when they start posting about Kobe as if he's an equal to either of the other two. Kobe was certainly smooth, fluid, and well he was like a ballerina on the court. But the results? They were great, but not at the level of either of the other two.

hey I don't know about you but I will gladly take 5 championships to 3.

[dhsilv2]

You know i bet he didn't even know that. He probably just thinks Lebron tops oit at like 28ppg or something, because that's the only way his comment makes sense, and it would fit right in with his other comments in the thread. He just "knows" Kobe has to be better, so he makes comments to that effect without even checking.

Reading comments here about Jordan and Lebron sometimes I'm not sure that people can see past style and substance. And I'm convinced when they start posting about Kobe as if he's an equal to either of the other two. Kobe was certainly smooth, fluid, and well he was like a ballerina on the court. But the results? They were great, but not at the level of either of the other two.

hey I don't know about you but I will gladly take 5 championships to 3.

You know the best way to become a millionaire?

Start with a billion dollars.