Player of the Day: Andre Roberson

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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#541 » by slick_watts » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:29 am

sleestak33 wrote: Those are the screenshots I want to see...much more educational.


uh, no. i'm not going to make your own argument for you.

besides- you completely ignored the entire point of my reply. instead of addressing the topic at hand, which is the use of counterpart boxscore stats to value dre's defensive impact, you go on a long ramble about something completely unrelated.

i want you to defend your sole us of counterpart boxscore stats to value dre's defensive value. you say because harden had 29 and 14 dre's defense wasn't valuable. my reply was directed at that comment. stay on topic.
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#542 » by hardenASG13 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:46 pm

RalphSampsonJr wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
Knrstz wrote:Are you still advocating playing Abrines instead of Roberson?


No, abrines has been a massive disappointment. I'm advocating trading him, potentially with Roberson and Ferguson, for some proven bench depth.


Yea.. youre looking sillier and sillier as the season goes on
All preseason you swore how much he needed to start. Now you have 180ed. Just like your mate Sleestak 180ed about Adams.


Let's where I was wrong.....i thought abrines would emerge as a 2 guard who could hit open 3s and play passable defense ( as any thunder fan should've....they really needed him to be that) He's had a hard time getting shots off and Defending.

Let's see where I've been right, against almost all of you:

1. Grant will become a rotation level player/improve with a year in okc under his belt (he's been playing out of position, but had been a bright spot amoung their prospects/bench players)

2. Okc will turn it around after a rough start, because, you know, they have Russell Westbrook and Paul George ( how anyone could've thought otherwise is just funny. Reminds me of a staff member at the alternative school I used to work at, who had some developmental disabilities and served lunch. He was a huge Celtics fan, it was his whole life. Year they won the title. Id always talk ball with him, and after every loss, he'd come in the next day panicking, saying his Celtics stunk and were awful. I'd reassure him they were awesome.)

3. The offense would stink with Roberson just standing in the corner, as he had the previous 3 years......which it did! During those first 20 games, where he was just standing outside, occasionally throwing the ball near the rim as he was unguarded, they struggled big-time offensively. With him actively screening and capitalizing on not being guarded every night by getting almost exclusively layups, he has at least found a way to contribute on that end, making it harder for opposing defenses to play 5 on 4. The addition of a 3rd scorer has also mitigated this effect. This may be the best he has consistently played offensively, as he is sustaining his ability to find layups. I still maintain any solid guard, in the Courtney Lee mold, is what this team needs at that spot to hit their ceiling, as they could be completely dominant offensively, with Roberson providing spot minutes, particularly when the other team has a superstar, just like other defensive specialists. His deficiencies are hidden by the superstars he has to play with exclusuvely to be on an NBA court. He is that bad offensively.


4. Kanter wasn't nearly as bad as everyone made him out to be. He was obviously great offensively, and still is. As for his D? Maybe don't switch him onto point guards after 1 screen?! He's been much improved on that end this year, playing in a system with half a brain. Before someone says he's a negative, look! He's doing great in New York, they love him there!

http://hoopshype.com/2017/12/29/enes-kanter-is-enjoying-the-best-season-of-his-career-and-other-players-have-taken-notice/

But you got me on my (almost universal) optimism on abrines. Man I feel silly. What were YOU right about? Have you ever had the confidence to make a prediction, or do anything but echo others points/come on here after Roberson has a good game (ex. He shut down klay thompson in 1 game!......although last time they met in the playoffs, and generally always, Klay took his and Okcs soul).
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#543 » by sleestak33 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:14 pm

slick_watts wrote:
sleestak33 wrote: Those are the screenshots I want to see...much more educational.


uh, no. i'm not going to make your own argument for you.

besides- you completely ignored the entire point of my reply. instead of addressing the topic at hand, which is the use of counterpart boxscore stats to value dre's defensive impact, you go on a long ramble about something completely unrelated.

i want you to defend your sole us of counterpart boxscore stats to value dre's defensive value. you say because harden had 29 and 14 dre's defense wasn't valuable. my reply was directed at that comment. stay on topic.


You won't answer any of those questions because you know they completely contradict your stance on Roberson and they clearly show that he costs the team considerably more points offensively than anything he could ever negate with his defense. And yeah, when Harden gets 29 points and 14 assists that most certainly is NOT negating anything defensively and he is surpassing his normal offensive output, just like in the playoffs when Harden scorched Roberson for almost 34 per game. I will never argue that Roberson is not a very good defender and that he tries very hard but I will argue with you or anybody else until the cows come home that his defense does not make the impact it would need to to validate continuing to start him or play him this much. Roberson at best is a role player who can come off the bench for a team to play 14-16 minutes max (or some games not at all because he's not needed) to play good defense, to rest your starter and occasionally make a layup or dunk. That's all he is right now and all he ever will be assuming he even makes it in the NBA. I assure you no other team would consider starting him...that's just a complete joke. Just like Kendrick Perkins was a complete joke and he got booted from the NBA 2 years after starting for OKC and playing almost 30 minutes per game just like Roberson is.
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#544 » by slick_watts » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:49 pm

1. our srs thru nov 30 was 2.94. our srs since dec 1 is 3.84. that's less than one point of improvement. saying the team has 'turned it around' is going a little far. mostly what's happened is we've won more of the close games, which was a predictable outcome over the long term.

2. the knicks are better with enes kanter off the court and can't defend with him in the game. as always, he puts up his stats. but he makes the team worse. he's still bottom 10 among all c defensively.

3. grant remains last among all okc rotation players on rpm estimate by a lot. his three point shot was an illusion, it seems, so he's far less useful offensively. if anything it seems as if he's regressed due to this.

whoops.
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#545 » by slick_watts » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:50 pm

sleestak33 wrote:And yeah, when Harden gets 29 points and 14 assists that most certainly is NOT negating anything defensively and he is surpassing his normal offensive output, just like in the playoffs when Harden scorched Roberson for almost 34 per game.


did you watch the clips i posted? do you understand why counterpart boxscore stats are not a reliable way to value individual defensive impact? can we please stick to one topic at a time?
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#546 » by RalphSampsonJr » Mon Jan 1, 2018 9:03 pm

slick_watts wrote:1. our srs thru nov 30 was 2.94. our srs since dec 1 is 3.84. that's less than one point of improvement. saying the team has 'turned it around' is going a little far. mostly what's happened is we've won more of the close games, which was a predictable outcome over the long term.

2. the knicks are better with enes kanter off the court and can't defend with him in the game. as always, he puts up his stats. but he makes the team worse. he's still bottom 10 among all c defensively.

3. grant remains last among all okc rotation players on rpm estimate by a lot. his three point shot was an illusion, it seems, so he's far less useful offensively. if anything it seems as if he's regressed due to this.

whoops.


Yep. Like i said.. sillier and sillier
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#547 » by sleestak33 » Fri Jan 5, 2018 1:22 pm

slick_watts wrote:
sleestak33 wrote:And yeah, when Harden gets 29 points and 14 assists that most certainly is NOT negating anything defensively and he is surpassing his normal offensive output, just like in the playoffs when Harden scorched Roberson for almost 34 per game.


did you watch the clips i posted? do you understand why counterpart boxscore stats are not a reliable way to value individual defensive impact? can we please stick to one topic at a time?


How many wide open, completely unguarded shots does Roberson pass up every game because he knows he can't shoot? How many points would you expect a remotely competent shooting guard to score given all of those looks? How much of advantage is it that the other team is getting by using Roberson's defender to play free safety and either stand in the paint clogging it or double teaming since he sucks so bad on offense that he doesn't need to be guarded? How big of an advantage is it that guys like Harden who is guarding Roberson never has to expend any energy on defense guarding him which allows him to conserve energy for offense? How big of an advantage is it for the other team to have a guy like Roberson that they can foul repeatedly knowing that it essentially is a turnover and doing this can completely change the momentum of the game in their favor? How many other teams in the NBA do you think would start a shooting guard who shoots 22% on wide open, completely unguarded 3s and 33% on free throws?

The answer to my second question is being answered for you and I don't know that I would call Ferguson "competent" yet but he at least has some offensive skill. 24 and 11 points in the last 2 games. Pretty obvious that the Thunder not only doesn't miss Roberson when he's out but a starting shooting guard that actually has to be accounted for defensively and can at least knock down some shots makes the team and everybody better.
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#548 » by slick_watts » Fri Jan 5, 2018 1:44 pm

sleestak33 wrote:How many wide open, completely unguarded shots does Roberson pass up every game because he knows he can't shoot?


dude. this is not how debate works. you don't answer questions with more questions. i have no problem answering yours, i do all time in these threads. you need to substantiate your position on dre's individual impact and how james harden (or anyone's) scoring numbers should be the sole barometer. then i will answer your questions. this isn't burger king. you don't get to have it your way.

sleestak33 wrote:The answer to my second question is being answered for you and I don't know that I would call Ferguson "competent" yet but he at least has some offensive skill. 24 and 11 points in the last 2 games. Pretty obvious that the Thunder not only doesn't miss Roberson when he's out but a starting shooting guard that actually has to be accounted for defensively and can at least knock down some shots makes the team and everybody better.


oh really? this starting unit is getting beaten when it's on the court, and we don't miss andre roberson? this unit with ferguson is actually yet another perfect example of roberson's value. the offense is scoring a lot more, but the defense is giving up even more than that.

the starters with roberson this year are +13pp100
the starters with ferguson the last two games are -1pp100

a difference of 14pp100. but yeah sure, they don't miss him. :crazy:
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#549 » by Kizz Fastfists » Fri Jan 5, 2018 6:46 pm

Slick, we do not care about winning games or what the scoreboard says. We only care about how a player looks when he is on the court on offense. Clearly Ferguson, Abrines and most players look better then Roberson. Therefore we are willing to miss the playoffs as long as it means we can leave Roberson off the court and the offense looks better even though there will be no relevant increase in production on that end of the court and the defense will be bottom 5 in the NBA.
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#550 » by bondom34 » Sun Jan 7, 2018 11:30 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#551 » by Funcrusher » Sun Jan 7, 2018 11:53 pm

bondom34 wrote:https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/7/16860064/oklahoma-city-thunder-russell-westbrook-carmelo-andre-roberson

Sleestak strikes again!
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#552 » by bbms » Mon Jan 8, 2018 3:05 am

Well we’re not exactly world beaters without Robes


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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#553 » by slick_watts » Mon Jan 8, 2018 1:28 pm

westbrook-george-anthony-adams w/o dre in 239 minutes is scoring an incredible 122.5pp100. but they are allowing 122.3pp100. more or less neutral.

the same group with dre in 436 minutes is scoring a decent 112.2pp100. they are allowing 98.5pp100. that's +12.7pp100.

we're allowing 114.8pp100 in the last four games dre has been out. that would rank dead last in the nba by a mile. ranks of the teams we've faced in those four games offensively: 12th, 18th, 26th, 28th. well below average.

i'm sorry, dre haters.
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#554 » by bbms » Mon Jan 8, 2018 6:15 pm

This is DPOY material.


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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#555 » by Pillendreher » Tue Jan 9, 2018 5:31 pm

Starters with Robes since 12/1: 45.8 oppFG%, 32.4 opp3P%
Starters without Robes since 12/1: 49.1 oppFG%, 40.0 opp3P%

So I wasn't imagining that our 3point defense has been putrid without him. Maybe his unique ability to recover and contest shots really does matter.
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#556 » by bondom34 » Tue Jan 9, 2018 5:32 pm

Read on Twitter
MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#557 » by Pillendreher » Tue Jan 9, 2018 5:39 pm

bondom34 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Justin is John Schuhmann.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#558 » by slick_watts » Tue Jan 9, 2018 7:35 pm

sleestak and the andre roberson haters nowhere to be seen (hmm)
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#559 » by hardenASG13 » Tue Jan 9, 2018 8:15 pm

slick_watts wrote:sleestak and the andre roberson haters nowhere to be seen (hmm)


Honestly, if his replacements were proven, solid NBA vets, I'd be alot more impressed, instead of d-league call ups, second year busts from Europe, or 150 pound rookies essentially right out of high school. That's not to say he hasn't been missed.....he obviously has. But surely you can't ignore who he's being replaced with, either, or the small sample size. As you can see with the big 3, or if you played basketball, familiarity and continuity do effect a unit/team, and the more you play with a group the more cohesive you become.
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Re: Player of the Day: Andre Roberson 

Post#560 » by Pillendreher » Tue Jan 9, 2018 9:28 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
slick_watts wrote:sleestak and the andre roberson haters nowhere to be seen (hmm)


Honestly, if his replacements were proven, solid NBA vets, I'd be alot more impressed, instead of d-league call ups, second year busts from Europe, or 150 pound rookies essentially right out of high school. That's not to say he hasn't been missed.....he obviously has. But surely you can't ignore who he's being replaced with, either, or the small sample size. As you can see with the big 3, or if you played basketball, familiarity and continuity do effect a unit/team, and the more you play with a group the more cohesive you become.


His replacements may be bad defenders, but the difference should not be 15 points per 100 poss. Unless Abrines et al. are historically bad. Or might just be both: His replacements are bad and he is a damn good defender himself. ;)
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