Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 5

[bwgood77]

You might get ridiculed anyway just putting that package together and suggesting it might be close to enough to get someone like Kawhi. Kawhi is an all-NBA player who's probably just hitting his prime, there's just no way you're gonna get him without a young player with star potential and picks going back. By that I mean at least Booker and our 1st as a starting point.

Yeah but at the same time, he will most certainly opt out of his contract after next season anyway, so if he really wants out, wouldn't it be best for the Spurs to trade him sooner rather than later? It's kind of similar to Kyrie wanting out, a 25 year old superstar that netted the Cavs an older pg in IT, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic, and the Nets pick. The Cavs didn't get a young player with star potential, though they got IT. Josh Jackson is suppose to be the same mold as Kawhi, plus I actually feel like JJ's catch and shoot 3 is coming along nicely. If push came to shove, then I would certainly give our 2018 pick instead, but obviously the first thing you want to do is bargain and get the best deal.

If we look at the IT/Kyrie trade, I see it as Cleveland making a lateral move (PG for PG) while getting some wing help (Crowder) and what was atm a likely top 5 pick for a guy that wanted out. They got what they wanted. They didn't/couldn't get a star at another position which, to their benefit meant they didn't need to somehow backfill the star level PG they lost.

With the Spurs, when Duncan retired they slotted LMA in that role hoping to extend Pop's system. Teams with an established, winning system don't want major changes. And if they are going to trade their all-NBA wing, I'd imagine they would target a star level wing in return. Booker is the only guy who could match Kawhi's scoring. I don't think they would be interested in JJ because he's still too young and too raw. I'd imagine they would want to keep the train rolling rather than develop and see what they have in JJ. Booker is at the age imo where he's ready to learn from the best and get slotted into an offense where he can be way more efficient and on defense, be hidden by their defensive scheme.

If we can talk to the Spurs in the first instance without putting Booker on the table, that's a great start. But I'd assume the talks would start with Booker

I think Kawhi has way more trade value than Kyrie did. Kawhi is pretty much one of, if not the best defenders in the league. He already won DPOY twice and regularly is among league leaders in steals. His wingspan is enormous. His drtg is extremely low. Players like Kawhi are much harder to come by than players like Kyrie. Kyrie is in the upper tier of point guards but there isn't a huge separation between him a bunch of others. He is super clutch, but he was terrible defensively.

Then Kawhi scored 25 a game last year...and you'd think Kyrie is more efficient...but no, Kawhi was 61% or more TS% the last two years whereas Kyrie was at 58% and 54% the year before.

So yeah, of course it would be nice to offer a 2019 unprotected pick, but that pick probably isn't too good if we had Kawhi and definitely not if we had Kawhi and Booker. The 2018 pick holds more value not only because of the stacked draft, but because of that and that the pick would likely be much much higher.

If he really ever did get on the trading block, which would shock me probably more than anyone maybe ever going on the block, then I don't think we could trump other offers. The only thing that might put us in the running is with Booker and the 2018, and that doesn't make sense for 2019 pending free agent, no matter how good he is.

[bwgood77]

What is the most assets ever included in a trade?

The biggest I can remember is the original Garnett trade of Top 10 Pick, Late 1st, Young Star, Young Starter, 2 Young Prospects.

That'd be the equivilent of Phoenix 2018, Miami 2018, TJ Warren, Marquese Chriss, Josh Jackson, Alex Len.

It seems like a ton of players moved in the Melo trade. Seems like half of the Knicks roster became Nuggets.

[bwgood77]

I'm trading anyone but Booker and Bender. We can give up JJ, Chriss, 2 of our unprotected picks, both Miami picks, Bucks pick. I'd literally offer them everything (besides Book/Bender). I don't think Spurs are opposed to young developing players since they got Dejounte Murray (21 years old) already starting and Kyle Anderson finally getting some decent minutes. I think if we included Chriss it's an offer that is worth considering, maybe even one Murray advocates for since they played together in college. Before the Bucks game I remember seeing a stat about JJ along the lines of him averaging 15 points, 6 rebounds on 47/39/80 split for January. If there is any coach out there that can get him to reach his ceiling in the NBA as fast as possible, it's Popovich.

I think the Celtics could beat our trade package, but other than them, I'm not sure anyone else can.

Booker-Kawhi is Jordan-Pippen esque in the modern day era. The NBA needs this to happen!

For some reason I can't imagine Pop liking Chriss too much.

[lilfishi22]

Yeah but at the same time, he will most certainly opt out of his contract after next season anyway, so if he really wants out, wouldn't it be best for the Spurs to trade him sooner rather than later? It's kind of similar to Kyrie wanting out, a 25 year old superstar that netted the Cavs an older pg in IT, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic, and the Nets pick. The Cavs didn't get a young player with star potential, though they got IT. Josh Jackson is suppose to be the same mold as Kawhi, plus I actually feel like JJ's catch and shoot 3 is coming along nicely. If push came to shove, then I would certainly give our 2018 pick instead, but obviously the first thing you want to do is bargain and get the best deal.

If we look at the IT/Kyrie trade, I see it as Cleveland making a lateral move (PG for PG) while getting some wing help (Crowder) and what was atm a likely top 5 pick for a guy that wanted out. They got what they wanted. They didn't/couldn't get a star at another position which, to their benefit meant they didn't need to somehow backfill the star level PG they lost.

With the Spurs, when Duncan retired they slotted LMA in that role hoping to extend Pop's system. Teams with an established, winning system don't want major changes. And if they are going to trade their all-NBA wing, I'd imagine they would target a star level wing in return. Booker is the only guy who could match Kawhi's scoring. I don't think they would be interested in JJ because he's still too young and too raw. I'd imagine they would want to keep the train rolling rather than develop and see what they have in JJ. Booker is at the age imo where he's ready to learn from the best and get slotted into an offense where he can be way more efficient and on defense, be hidden by their defensive scheme.

If we can talk to the Spurs in the first instance without putting Booker on the table, that's a great start. But I'd assume the talks would start with Booker

I think Kawhi has way more trade value than Kyrie did. Kawhi is pretty much one of, if not the best defenders in the league. He already won DPOY twice and regularly is among league leaders in steals. His wingspan is enormous. His drtg is extremely low. Players like Kawhi are much harder to come by than players like Kyrie. Kyrie is in the upper tier of point guards but there isn't a huge separation between him a bunch of others. He is super clutch, but he was terrible defensively.

The Kawhi scored 25 a game last year...and you'd think Kyrie is better offensively, more efficient...but no, Kawhi was 61% or more TS% the last two years whereas Kyrie was at 58% and 54% the year before.

So yeah, of course it would be nice to offer a 2019 unprotected pick, but that pick probably isn't too good if we had Kawhi and definitely not if we had Kawhi and Booker. The 2018 pick holds more value not only because of the stacked draft, but because of that and that the pick would likely be much much higher.

If he really ever did get on the trading block, which would shock me probably more than anyone maybe ever going on the block, then I don't think we could trump other offers. The only thing that might put us in the running is with Booker and the 2018, and that doesn't make sense for 2019 pending free agent, no matter how good he is.

Oh no question Kawhi's a different level player than Kyrie. His defense alone (still DPOY level imo) is worth more imo than Kyrie's offense. There's a lot more guys who can do what Kyrie does (to a slightly lesser extent) than what Kawhi can do defensively. Kawhi's a super unique package that can play both ends of the floor at elite levels and there might be maybe 3 other players that are on his level (Lebron, Giannis, Durant.....PG?) on both ends of the floor.

[lilfishi22]

What is the most assets ever included in a trade?

The biggest I can remember is the original Garnett trade of Top 10 Pick, Late 1st, Young Star, Young Starter, 2 Young Prospects.

That'd be the equivilent of Phoenix 2018, Miami 2018, TJ Warren, Marquese Chriss, Josh Jackson, Alex Len.

It seems like a ton of players moved in the Melo trade. Seems like half of the Knicks roster became Nuggets.

That was the most recent "kitchen sink" trade imo

[hollywood6964]

I'm trading anyone but Booker and Bender. We can give up JJ, Chriss, 2 of our unprotected picks, both Miami picks, Bucks pick. I'd literally offer them everything (besides Book/Bender). I don't think Spurs are opposed to young developing players since they got Dejounte Murray (21 years old) already starting and Kyle Anderson finally getting some decent minutes. I think if we included Chriss it's an offer that is worth considering, maybe even one Murray advocates for since they played together in college. Before the Bucks game I remember seeing a stat about JJ along the lines of him averaging 15 points, 6 rebounds on 47/39/80 split for January. If there is any coach out there that can get him to reach his ceiling in the NBA as fast as possible, it's Popovich.

I think the Celtics could beat our trade package, but other than them, I'm not sure anyone else can.

Booker-Kawhi is Jordan-Pippen esque in the modern day era. The NBA needs this to happen!

For some reason I can't imagine Pop liking Chriss too much.

Yeah he's really akin to whining that goes on over every play.

[bwgood77]

Oh no question Kawhi's a different level player than Kyrie. His defense alone (still DPOY level imo) is worth more imo than Kyrie's offense. There's a lot more guys who can do what Kyrie does (to a slightly lesser extent) than what Kawhi can do defensively. Kawhi's a super unique package that can play both ends of the floor at elite levels and there might be maybe 3 other players that are on his level (Lebron, Giannis, Durant.....PG?) on both ends of the floor.

I don't think any are on his level on the defensive side...except maybe Giannis...but probably not even him. MAYBE the old LeBron. But he isn't as good as Durant offensively...no one is, except Curry...shooting I mean.

And then of course LeBron/Giannis have the passing.

But assuming you meant number of guys who's total package, all things considered who play both sides of the ball...I think your list is right. George and Butler are a notch below.

Though I'm not sure how often LeBron tries on defense this year...his defense is a lot worse than most any year...his last couple years have dropped off. It's his best offensive year in several years though. Since he's been with Cleveland. 63% TS%

[SideSwipe]

Time to see if we can pull off a trade for both Kawhi and Cousins, with Reke for bonus points?

Reke
Booker
Kawhi
Cousins
Chandler

Offense, Defense, Versatility.

[lilfishi22]

Oh no question Kawhi's a different level player than Kyrie. His defense alone (still DPOY level imo) is worth more imo than Kyrie's offense. There's a lot more guys who can do what Kyrie does (to a slightly lesser extent) than what Kawhi can do defensively. Kawhi's a super unique package that can play both ends of the floor at elite levels and there might be maybe 3 other players that are on his level (Lebron, Giannis, Durant.....PG?) on both ends of the floor.

I don't think any are on his level on the defensive side...except maybe Giannis...but probably not even him. MAYBE the old LeBron. But he isn't as good as Durant offensively...no one is, except Curry...shooting I mean.

And then of course LeBron/Giannis have the passing.

But assuming you meant number of guys who's total package, all things considered who play both sides of the ball...I think your list is right. George and Butler are a notch below.

Though I'm not sure how often LeBron tries on defense this year...his defense is a lot worse than most any year...his last couple years have dropped off. It's his best offensive year in several years though. Since he's been with Cleveland. 63% TS%

Yeah I mean in terms of the combination of offense/defense. He's in the elite category on both ends but of course there's levels to elite too. He's better than all three defensively but I'd put all three above him offensively. For sure PG and Butler are a notch below too. Just shows how hard it is to get a player with that package when guys who are comparatively close to him are all MVP level players.

As for Lebron's defense, I think age has certainly caught up to him in terms of his ability to play legendary level offense while simultaneously taking on a massive workload playing elite individual and team defense. Last couple of years he's slowly focused his energy more on offense while being less engaged defensively. But also with the way his teams has been constructed, I don't think he has nearly as much help defensively either. So the combination of him not be able to keep up his previously levels of defense as well as the team getting worst collectively on defensive just means the issue is exacerbated

[Frank Lee]

Hard to imagine McD swinging a deal with SA without having #1-2- or 3, but also hard to see him not try if Leonard is really up for bids.

I could see interest in Love as well. This off season is going to be swirling with rumors.

[hollywood6964]

Hard to imagine McD swinging a deal with SA without having #1-2- or 3, but also hard to see him not try if Leonard is really up for bids.

I could see interest in Love as well. This off season is going to be swirling with rumors.

Love is someone realistic for phoenix to procure.

I don't think we have a chance at kawai. Not without booker in the equation. He'd really shore up our **** defense though.

Either big in NO is probably not going to happen either. N I could do without cousins, in the end he'll be too much of a headache. N I'd worry about davis, injuries eventually become too much to for recover from. N that's besides all the games he misses every year.

We need to either strike gold in the lotto, or strike a hell of a heist in the trade market. Other than that, I think kevin love is a viable option.

[thamadkant]

If Kawhi indeed is wanting out due to maybe fearing he will be stuck on a tread milling team next season due to the lack of salary space to really improve to beat Warriors... or maybe Spurs notice they can win games without him and would like to re-load on youth whilst winning 50 games etc.... what ever could be the reason...



Suns / Spurs

Warren
Jackson (Spurs likes him, hence they wanted to move up last draft apparently)
Bender
Monroe (expiring)
Bucks pick 2018
Heat pick 2018
Len

for

Leonard
Aldridge or Gasol (albatross salary)

[ATTL]

If kawaii is unhappy in san Antonio winning high 50's in games, how happy will he be in phoenix? Especially after gutting the roster to get him?

[Damkac]

If kawaii is unhappy in san Antonio winning high 50's in games, how happy will he be in phoenix? Especially after gutting the roster to get him?

^This.

I can't belive this Kawhii story. He is literally the last player I would expect to request a trade. 90%+ He will stay on the Spurs.

[Blonde]

I'm not investing any energy into this Kawhi thing because it's not happening.

[Qwigglez]

If Kawhi really wants out why wouldn't they at least listen to offers? Again, they are 3rd seed in the stacked Western Conference, and that is without Kawhi. Yes they are far better with him, but still not good enough to beat the Warriors, maybe the Rockets (Pop>D'Antoni). Leonard is supposedly out for the year, so once they get knocked out in the playoffs, how likely is it for the Spurs to improve their roster when they are already sitting at $99mil in salary? Meanwhile Kawhi has an opt out clause next out season, so while his value is extremely high, he would be a 1 year rental so it would be risky for teams to make that deal for him, unless he puts out a list similar to what Kyrie did.
So here's what could potentially happen. Over the summer Kawhi submits his request to be traded, he gives out a list and hopefully we are on that list, not sure why we would be, unless he sees the potential in a Devin Booker duo. We can then trade the Spurs our 2018 pick, along with Josh Jackson, the Bucks pick, and the 2021 Miami pick. I could see them requesting Bender too since he seems like a Popovich kind of player, and I would include him if that is what the Spurs are demanding.

Really though, the Celtics would only need to offer Tatum, Brown, and Smart and their picks and then they'd have a dynamic Kyrie-Hayward-Leonard-Horford lineup. Some reason I am hoping the Celtics would prefer to keep Tatum and Brown but I doubt it.

Kind of sucks that we traded Bledsoe because we'd have a solid defensive team around Booker if we somehow traded for Kawhi without including Bledsoe/Booker.

[Qwigglez]

Not sure if anyone saw this yet.

Read on Twitter

[cberry78]

So, realistically, what is the going rate for a Kawhi? What about a Giannis?

Since DBook is off the table, what are the Suns realistically willing to offer for either of those players?

[Saberestar]

I'm not investing any energy into this Kawhi thing because it's not happening.

Same here.

[Saberestar]

So, realistically, what is the going rate for a Kawhi? What about a Giannis?

Since DBook is off the table, what are the Suns realistically willing to offer for either of those players?

Lillard, Kawhi, Giannis....all of them are dreams. They are not available now. Kemba is the only one "All-Star" who we can realistically obtain before the deadline, just that.