PG Thread: Tanks Trust The Process

[mpharris36]

how do you even define "courage" in terms of basketball

and what constitutes courage? Taking a lot of shots? Is commitment on the defensive end a requirement for courage?

[dakomish23]

Dennis Smith has led his team to a whopping 18 wins, and he already has a surgically repaired knee. He also wouldn't let the Knicks doctors examine him.

You really think the Knicks should have invested in a player that refused to be examined?

He's also older than Frank, and has been given free reign to do what he wants with the Mavs, despite having way better teammates than Frank. He doesn't have to play timidly, knowing that any mistake can get him a quick hook.

If they played their vets over their kids they’d probably be where we are. They took the hit to maximize the development of the kid this year and are going to likely add another stud to their core.

I wish we were that smart.

[Newyorknick94]

Its feels bad losing when we are seeing no progress. The team is booty and the HC and his coaching staff is largely responsible for it.
McDermott traded to Dallas and immediately he made his mark there.

8 pts and 4 assists with 33 percent shooting is making his mark?

On most nights he was playing for the Knicks, Doug would rack up Lance Thomas-like stat lines and making brick houses out of wide open looks.

Lol they both garbage I’m not losing sleep over McDermott dude couldn’t hit a jumper to save his life with us

[Jalen Bluntson]

Listen to the reporter's question to Jeff on the postgame on why he decided to take Frank out and tell me if you can make sense out of his answer. Btw, does anybody here know who that female reporter who asked the question is? Don't tell me it's Rebecca.

@ 0:35

Watch on YouTube

Yeah that's Rebecca.

And his answer is an indictment of how ass Frank is. Basically he said he wanted to make one last run at tryna get back into the game, so he subbed Frank out

Which indicates he believes if he wants to win he has a better shot of doing it without Frank on the court

That's a man who knows his time is over in NY. You can see it on his face and in his eyes.

Frank is defense only. You need offense to make a run. If that's his reason....then it's a good one. Frank leaves too many points in the floor when he passes up wide open looks. He'll help get you stops but, he's not sparking any runs. Not the way he was playing in that game.

I just want to know what happened to the poise and calm confidence he had in the beginning. When the crow thread was feeding the masses Frank looked like he had a promising future. He looks like a frightened little girl out there on offense with the ball in his hand. He can't wait to pass it now. Who is mentoring him? Jack? Jeff? It looks bad. He's a 19 yr old rookie. That's not an excuse to me. It's a valid reason. In the end he could just suck but, I'll wait a few more days to write him off.

[IllmaticHandler]

Everyone on this board giving up on the 19 year old already. Wonder why everyone hate us. Knick fans gonna Knick.

How you saying everyone and there is people who have been defending Frank all season, and still support him.

[Red Vines]

Not going to blame coaching on Tim's shooting and no way can you win with your main guy playing like that. Tim has to stop thinking of himself as an elite shooter and only take good, open shots like Wally said in postgame. Start thinking about other ways to score and help.

[Phish Tank]

I wake up this morning to all these crazy posts and I'm wondering what people really want. We lost a game and gained ground on the tankathon standings.

Some of y'all wanna lose but lose gracefully. Like yeah, we should lose, but Frank should have a double double, Mudiay should shoot well, Timmy shouldn't be shooting 2-20 or whatever he shot.... if those 3 things would have happened last night, we would have won the game.

You can't tank gracefully. Tanks are not graceful.

[IllmaticHandler]

I wake up this morning to all these crazy posts and I'm wondering what people really want. We lost a game and gained ground on the tankathon standings.

Some of y'all wanna lose but lose gracefully. Like yeah, we should lose, but Frank should have a double double, Mudiay should shoot well, Timmy shouldn't be shooting 2-20 or whatever he shot.... if those 3 things would have happened last night, we would have won the game.

You can't tank gracefully. Tanks are not graceful.

I watched the Philly Feed on the game. They interviewed TJ Mconnell after it... You know what he said after the game? The Fans booed us a few years ago and rightfully so, so its good to have turned things around. Philly's tank was not graceful at all, but of course Foolio Knick fans think otherwise. I said earlier why even be mad at the players. Im looking forward to offseason training at this point.

Tanks are Ugly. So why complain all day long. The complaints you see here in this thread about the players etc, sound as if we are competing for an NBA final this year.

[Phish Tank]

I wake up this morning to all these crazy posts and I'm wondering what people really want. We lost a game and gained ground on the tankathon standings.

Some of y'all wanna lose but lose gracefully. Like yeah, we should lose, but Frank should have a double double, Mudiay should shoot well, Timmy shouldn't be shooting 2-20 or whatever he shot.... if those 3 things would have happened last night, we would have won the game.

You can't tank gracefully. Tanks are not graceful.

I watched the Philly Feed on the game. They interviewed TJ Mconnell after it... You know what he said after the game? The Fans booed us a few years ago and rightfully so, so its good to have turned things around. Philly's tank was not graceful at all, but of course Foolio Knick fans think otherwise. I said earlier why even be mad at the players. Im looking forward to offseason training at this point.

Tanks are Ugly. So why complain all day long. The complaints you see here in this thread about the players etc, sound as if we are competing for an NBA final this year.

I've been watching the 76ers on League Pass last year and been observing them carefully over the last few years because many of my cousins are long-time 76ers fans.

They would put out a roster of players that didn't belong on an NBA team. Hell at one point, TJ McConnell played like a replacement-level player.

[Jalen Bluntson]

I wake up this morning to all these crazy posts and I'm wondering what people really want. We lost a game and gained ground on the tankathon standings.

Some of y'all wanna lose but lose gracefully. Like yeah, we should lose, but Frank should have a double double, Mudiay should shoot well, Timmy shouldn't be shooting 2-20 or whatever he shot.... if those 3 things would have happened last night, we would have won the game.

You can't tank gracefully. Tanks are not graceful.

I watched the Philly Feed on the game. They interviewed TJ Mconnell after it... You know what he said after the game? The Fans booed us a few years ago and rightfully so, so its good to have turned things around. Philly's tank was not graceful at all, but of course Foolio Knick fans think otherwise. I said earlier why even be mad at the players. Im looking forward to offseason training at this point.

Tanks are Ugly. So why complain all day long. The complaints you see here in this thread about the players etc, sound as if we are competing for an NBA final this year.

That was my argument earlier this year. Everyone wanted Frank to be a hit. Timmy to earn his money. KP to take a leap. Billy to prove he's a starting level talent etc etc...and lose every game.

[shtolky]

I wake up this morning to all these crazy posts and I'm wondering what people really want. We lost a game and gained ground on the tankathon standings.

Some of y'all wanna lose but lose gracefully. Like yeah, we should lose, but Frank should have a double double, Mudiay should shoot well, Timmy shouldn't be shooting 2-20 or whatever he shot.... if those 3 things would have happened last night, we would have won the game.

You can't tank gracefully. Tanks are not graceful.

I watched the Philly Feed on the game. They interviewed TJ Mconnell after it... You know what he said after the game? The Fans booed us a few years ago and rightfully so, so its good to have turned things around. Philly's tank was not graceful at all, but of course Foolio Knick fans think otherwise. I said earlier why even be mad at the players. Im looking forward to offseason training at this point.

Tanks are Ugly. So why complain all day long. The complaints you see here in this thread about the players etc, sound as if we are competing for an NBA final this year.

Agreed. I thought that this tanking would quell some of the craziness but it's still just as crazy here. I thought this is what we wanted, another shot at a high lotto pick. Yet I still see complaints about how we have too many centers or too many PGs or that Frank didn't do this or that in one game. 80-90% of the players on our roster won't be here in a few years when hopefully we've built around KP, Frank, 2018 first, and 2019 free agent(s). We are gonna lose a ton, it's gonna look bad, but it's going to help us long term.

[Dr. Detfink]

The Sixers are a team that the Knicks front office could learn a lot from. Yes, the Sixers did draft some stinkers BUT keep in mind of the follow:

1. The Sixers realized that they had NO CHANCE attract any top tier free agents. The only free agents the Sixers would get a sniff from, aging vets who were using one rebound season in order to justify $$$$$. Without vastly overpaying them to what end? Barely under .500?

2. The Sixers realized competing to just miss the playoffs didn't help in the draft. Let me repeat that: COMPETING TO MISS THE PLAYOFFS. Only led them to mid level picks NONE of which panned out.

3. The Sixers also realized the Lottery is FIXED. How many times did the Bulls, Cavs, Magic get the #1 pick? No one thought to fix this?
Ridiculous.

They needed to put down the foundation FIRST and the only way you do that was to TANK!

Now here come the Knicks...

1. Team President Steve Mills gives a BS speech on fielding a competitive team. The Knicks decide to use what cap space they have to overpay Tim Hardaway Jr, meaning the Knicks won't have cap space for at least 2-3 seasons. Never mind Hardaway Jr is basically a more expensive version of Courtney Lee. He would be the 6th or 7th best guy on a title contender.

2. Without any cap space, the Knicks kind of needed a point guard right?!?! Without much wiggle room, Knicks GM Steve Perry went out and addressed the Knicks' biggest deficiency point guard by signing Latino Viagra, Ramon Sessions. Luckily he ran into Jarret Jack begging for coins outside of the 42nd Street station in Times Square.

3. Perry traded Melo and got in return a Political Refugee for $18M-20M per season, second round pick. Perry traded a Hall of Famer and got basically a guy who allows Jeff Hornacek to bench Noah, Hernangomez, and reduce O'Quinn's minutes. Kanter will opt-in and stay with the Knicks, making it impossible for the Knicks to buy a first rounder. The Knicks won't get that much better because he's limited in so many ways. Most of all, Perry didn't address the point guard situation because he was pressured to move Melo before the season began.

4. The Knicks front office allowed their coach to de-value their assets. Hornacek goes with a short bench. Hence McDermott, Dotson, Hernangomez don't get any better and ride the bench.

5. No one wanted the Knicks' alleged assets. Kyle O'Quinn anyone? Any takers? Nope. Courtney Lee any takers? Nope. McDermott (1st round #11 pick) and Hernangomez given away for a couple second rounders. Thanks Jeff.

The Sixers Front office took a lot of flak and it took A LOT of time but they have 2 huge pieces of the puzzle in Simmons and Embiid, cap space, and a weak Eastern conference. The Knicks have Porzingis out till mid-way next season, 18 year old guard in Ntilikina that is not getting mentored, NO cap space, and a Front Office who thinks the "New York" moniker can still get them Lebron James.

The only GOOD news Knick fans is the injury has FORCED the Knick Front Office to focus exclusively on the draft. Let's PRAY they don't screw that up. The Knicks need TWO good drafts in order to rebuild this team proper nevermind a coach who isn't named Mark Jackson.

[vallen]

So everyone believes Dolan doesn't know anything about basketball, yet also believes that Dolan scouts international prospects and knows Frank Ntilikina's game to the point that he fires Phil over it?

you really dont know how many people run a F.O in basketball ? you really think its just Phil and Dolan who have stake in it.

it doesnt effect anyone else ? there no scouts ? no coaches ? no assistant gm's ? Gm's ? assistant coaches ? VP's ?

Phil was the boss of every single person you just mentioned. They all answered to him.

Which of those guys you listed could fire their boss?

Keep arguing something couldnt happen that actually did.

your spin is that he couldnt be fired for drafting but could be fired for something else ??

thats silly and naive. even for you.

[Deeeez Knicks]

I wake up this morning to all these crazy posts and I'm wondering what people really want. We lost a game and gained ground on the tankathon standings.

Some of y'all wanna lose but lose gracefully. Like yeah, we should lose, but Frank should have a double double, Mudiay should shoot well, Timmy shouldn't be shooting 2-20 or whatever he shot.... if those 3 things would have happened last night, we would have won the game.

You can't tank gracefully. Tanks are not graceful.

I watched the Philly Feed on the game. They interviewed TJ Mconnell after it... You know what he said after the game? The Fans booed us a few years ago and rightfully so, so its good to have turned things around. Philly's tank was not graceful at all, but of course Foolio Knick fans think otherwise. I said earlier why even be mad at the players. Im looking forward to offseason training at this point.

Tanks are Ugly. So why complain all day long. The complaints you see here in this thread about the players etc, sound as if we are competing for an NBA final this year.

Yeah, there is no pretty way to do this. For the most part Philly was not happy. They fired Hinkie and it was real ugly. Most games are going to be ugly for us. You hope for a few good performances here and there from the young players, but there will be some struggles.

I do like how Philly stuck with guys like McConnell and Covington thru some of their struggles. Beyond their lottery picks, they found 2 rotation players out of the rough and they developed pretty well. Hopefully we can do that too

[shtolky]

The Sixers are a team that the Knicks front office could learn a lot from. Yes, the Sixers did draft some stinkers BUT keep in mind of the follow:

1. The Sixers realized that they had NO CHANCE attract any top tier free agents. The only free agents the Sixers would get a sniff from, aging vets who were using one rebound season in order to justify $$$$$. Without vastly overpaying them to what end? Barely under .500?

2. The Sixers realized competing to just miss the playoffs didn't help in the draft. Let me repeat that: COMPETING TO MISS THE PLAYOFFS. Only led them to mid level picks NONE of which panned out.

3. The Sixers also realized the Lottery is FIXED. How many times did the Bulls, Cavs, Magic get the #1 pick? No one thought to fix this?
Ridiculous.

They needed to put down the foundation FIRST and the only way you do that was to TANK!

Now here come the Knicks...

1. Team President Steve Mills gives a BS speech on fielding a competitive team. The Knicks decide to use what cap space they have to overpay Tim Hardaway Jr, meaning the Knicks won't have cap space for at least 2-3 seasons. Never mind Hardaway Jr is basically a more expensive version of Courtney Lee. He would be the 6th or 7th best guy on a title contender.

2. Without any cap space, the Knicks kind of needed a point guard right?!?! Without much wiggle room, Knicks GM Steve Perry went out and addressed the Knicks' biggest deficiency point guard by signing Latino Viagra, Ramon Sessions. Luckily he ran into Jarret Jack begging for coins outside of the 42nd Street station in Times Square.

3. Perry traded Melo and got in return a Political Refugee for $18M-20M per season, second round pick. Perry traded a Hall of Famer and got basically a guy who allows Jeff Hornacek to bench Noah, Hernangomez, and reduce O'Quinn's minutes. Kanter will opt-in and stay with the Knicks, making it impossible for the Knicks to buy a first rounder. The Knicks won't get that much better because he's limited in so many ways. Most of all, Perry didn't address the point guard situation because he was pressured to move Melo before the season began.

4. The Knicks front office allowed their coach to de-value their assets. Hornacek goes with a short bench. Hence McDermott, Dotson, Hernangomez don't get any better and ride the bench.

5. No one wanted the Knicks' alleged assets. Kyle O'Quinn anyone? Any takers? Nope. Courtney Lee any takers? Nope. McDermott (1st round #11 pick) and Hernangomez given away for a couple second rounders. Thanks Jeff.

The Sixers Front office took a lot of flak and it took A LOT of time but they have 2 huge pieces of the puzzle in Simmons and Embiid, cap space, and a weak Eastern conference. The Knicks have Porzingis out till mid-way next season, 18 year old guard in Ntilikina that is not getting mentored, NO cap space, and a Front Office who thinks the "New York" moniker can still get them Lebron James.

The only GOOD news Knick fans is the injury has FORCED the Knick Front Office to focus exclusively on the draft. Let's PRAY they don't screw that up. The Knicks need TWO good drafts in order to rebuild this team proper nevermind a coach who isn't named Mark Jackson.

We are going to have a lot of cap space in 2019. The Sixers tanked but they also got lucky. They won the lottery in a year with a clear undisputed #1, and had Embiid not gotten hurt in college he would have gone #1. Lot of luck needed in the NBA.

Also, whether you want to admit it or not, players do like NY. We've gotten meetings with free agents when we have no business being in the same room as them. We just happen to suck big time but if we are decent and have money, they will be interested.

[Jalen Bluntson]

What we really should be worrying about is the FO/Coaching. Can they collect talent? Can they put it together on the court?

The players we have are going to be young. That means a lot of them are not polished. Will have flaws. Will take time to grow. It is important to add a stud to this mix. KP is the only one on the roster right now. Another advanced level player is needed in the next 2 drafts. UDFA? Cast off? However we find them. It's not an overnight change. It takes YEARS. ALL OF IT TAKES YEARS.

[vallen]

how do you even define "courage" in terms of basketball

and what constitutes courage? Taking a lot of shots? Is commitment on the defensive end a requirement for courage?

courage - the ability to do something that frightens one.

its the same meaning in basketball as it is anywhere. hes scared.

[GONYK]

you really dont know how many people run a F.O in basketball ? you really think its just Phil and Dolan who have stake in it.

it doesnt effect anyone else ? there no scouts ? no coaches ? no assistant gm's ? Gm's ? assistant coaches ? VP's ?

Phil was the boss of every single person you just mentioned. They all answered to him.

Which of those guys you listed could fire their boss?

Keep arguing something couldnt happen that actually did.

your spin is that he couldnt be fired for drafting but could be fired for something else ??

thats silly and naive. even for you.

Take a look back at our interaction. Did I insult you? No? Then you keep clear of insulting me.

No, I'm saying he wasn't fired for drafting because the time line doesn't add up and all the people who you speculate disagreed with his decision can't fire him, since he was their boss.

The only person who could fire Phil was Dolan. That was the only person in the entire organization that Phil answered to.

Dolan had no idea who these prospects were. KP was a wildly unpopular choice who was supposed to be a project too, and yet Dolan didn't fire Phil for that. It worked out great. So why would he do so after Phil's next pick?

Dolan only fired Phil a week after the draft. The only change was Phil said he wanted to waive Melo. In fact, Dolan fired Phil the day after Phil suggested it.

If you want to contort both the timing of events as well as the Knicks organizational chart just to fit your perception, knock yourself out. It just doesn't line up with the facts of the situation in any logical way.

[MP4LIFE]

Here we go again, Knick fans getting restless and angry at an 18-year old kid who had a bad game during a tanking system.

Giannis Antetokounmpo rookie season: 6.8 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.8 bpg

Frank Ntilikina rookie season: 5.3 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 3.3 apg, 0.2 bpg.

Frank's playing time averages 3-4 min LESS per game than the Greek Freak.

Frank is OUR guy. If this was his second and definitely his third season then take your pound of flesh but he's a KID.

Giannis is now in his FIFTH season and 23 yrs old. Frank has FIVE years before he gets to that age.

Come on...stop it.

BTW Mitchell and Smith Jr, two guys playing on awful teams where the coach has given them ALL the playing time and free reign. Let's wait...let's WAIT and see if they can co-exist with another player and go from a fantasy stat tracker to a WINNING team.

Frank is not a talent like Giannis, who showed flashes of greatness even as a rookie.

That being said, your post is definitely correct. But the select few who think Ntilikina is already a bust are people who have a relatively low basketball IQ and have historically supported similar low basketball IQ players. Best to not pay attention to those posts and simply remain patient.

There will come a time to properly observe and criticize Frank. Now is not that time.

He will need to show progress next year, however.

Come on man, here you go again with your high horse ****...don't insult other people's intelligence.

Now is not the time? He's playing, we have every right to observe and report. I waited half a season to say something...and I can see he's not capable enough to lead a team. He's a back seat I'll do what I'm told kind of guy....but there are millions of them.

It's not like we are asking him to lead us to the playoffs, but the fact is, DUDE IS PLAYING LIKE STRAIGHT GARBAGE even as a secondary role player...**** being the point guard.

Do you not see how a player reads and reacts to things on the floor? You can see that even in mediocre young guards like Lonzo and Russel....look at our own guy, Mudiay....he might suck too but the guy can play in the NBA, and Frank is no where close...dude looks like a rec league player out there. I must be losing my mind.

Like I said before, we had way worse draft picks who didn't play this bad, didn't show this kind of lack of progress over the course of their first season....Landry Fields made more of an impact in his rookie year, Jerian Grant, Iman Shumpert, I can go on.

There's nothing insulting going on. Observing people being consistently wrong isn't an insult, it's a fact.

Nobody said I'm always right, either. I've been wrong on my share of things. But I own up to them and acknowledge those faults. I also know that my mistakes were based on misguided beliefs, not on a lack of understanding of the game of basketball. It is a fact that there are certain posters who have little regard for basketball fundamentals and basketball intelligence - 2 very important things to be a great player and to win as a team. Some people choose style over substance, flash over safety.

Ntilikina isn't playing well and that's been acknowledged. Again, plenty of players have looked like straight doodoo at 18-19 years old out of Europe and developed into good players over the years. Frank will never be a star in the league but he has a potential to be a good starter in the future. He may very well end up being a certified scrub but the player he is now is not a finished product either way. Whatever he will be isn't what he is right now. So I don't get why we need to sit here and call the guy a bust and a scrub after a half season. This team is going nowhere and has been for close to 2 decades. We have time to develop Frank and see what he's about, whether he has it or he doesn't. What's the rush in shipping him out of here? Are you planning on winning games anytime soon with this team? Have some patience and see what happens.

Your issues should be with guys like Michael Beasley playing 39 minutes for a 'rebuilding' team than Frank playing like crap right now.

[mpharris36]

how do you even define "courage" in terms of basketball

and what constitutes courage? Taking a lot of shots? Is commitment on the defensive end a requirement for courage?

courage - the ability to do something that frightens one.

its the same meaning in basketball as it is anywhere. hes scared.

if someone goes 4-18 from the field does that mean they have courage to keep shooting or does that mean they are too stupid to realize they don't have it?