Let's stop and get a FrankfROOTER - Franktalk #3

[newyorker4ever]

disagree in terms of fit next to KP, would much rather prefer Bagley or JJJ

my top 5 at the moment is

Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, then Ayton.

if were outside of the top 5 I would target Bridges

The idea of Ayton as "what we need to start at center" is laughable. Going right off the bat to say that. I have him in my 3rd tier at the moment, below Bags / Doncic in tier 1 and Bamba in 2 (Mikal is in tier 2.5). JJJ is outside the top 6 because I don't trust that shot at all.

Bags/Doncic
Bamba
(2.5) Mikal
Miles/Ayton

Ayton is the exact type of big we don't need next to KP.

the shot is ugly but it goes in. And him impact in other areas is amazing. Maybe he can get by like Shawn Marion did...I just like the fact he can guard the perimeter but I am super tantalized by Bamba too. But that means KP sticks at the 4...which I guess he would like

Bamba and JJJ are interchangeable to me...I guess fit wise would just give the ever so slight edge to him over Bamba because I would like KP to transition to the 5 especially after the injury.

But the wingspan and length would be nuts for either.

What do you guys think about W.Carter and R.Williams?? You think Carter is definitely center and can't play PF and the opposite for R.Williams??

[NBA Fan 1234]

disagree in terms of fit next to KP, would much rather prefer Bagley or JJJ

my top 5 at the moment is

Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, then Ayton.

if were outside of the top 5 I would target Bridges

The idea of Ayton as "what we need to start at center" is laughable. Going right off the bat to say that. I have him in my 3rd tier at the moment, below Bags / Doncic in tier 1 and Bamba in 2 (Mikal is in tier 2.5). JJJ is outside the top 6 because I don't trust that shot at all.

Bags/Doncic
Bamba
(2.5) Mikal
Miles/Ayton

Ayton is the exact type of big we don't need next to KP.

the shot is ugly but it goes in. And him impact in other areas is amazing. Maybe he can get by like Shawn Marion did...I just like the fact he can guard the perimeter but I am super tantalized by Bamba too. But that means KP sticks at the 4...which I guess he would like

Bamba and JJJ are interchangeable to me...I guess fit wise would just give the ever so slight edge to him over Bamba because I would like KP to transition to the 5 especially after the injury.

But the wingspan and length would be nuts for either.

I hear what you're saying about the results speaking for themselves, but I still don't trust it. Hey, I might be wrong and he could become the next best stretch big (or, at the least, show he can hit it consistently in the pros). It's just an ugly release and looks like he was taught by the same guy who taught Noah a bit.

Watch on YouTube

(Can't find one of his jumper from this year.)

I think Bamba has the clear edge, though. Smooth form on his jumper, been hitting the outside shot (even if it's at a low clip), monster rebounder, monster defender on the interior and an absolute pest on the perimeter as well, and he's got a great frame to add strength. I was dead wrong on Gobert and I don't plan on making the same mistake twice. I think Bamba is going to be Gobert with offense. Even if we draft Bamba, we can still play KP at the 5. 48 minutes at the C. If we somehow manage to snag Bamba, we can give them both minutes there and can still stagger them so we're playing with 1 at all times - nobody would be scoring in the paint.

Playing both would be getting away from the small ball type of game, but, to be honest, I think "small ball" is really just another way to get the 5 most talented players on the court at the same time. I love Bamba's talent and I was a nonbeliever before the season, but he's proven me wrong.

That said, I still hope we somehow manage to get Bags / Doncic.

Watch on YouTube

(FOUND ONE!)

[newyorker4ever]

Markkanen was taken 7th, before Frank.

And I don't agree with you that we would have blown it if someone taken after Frank ended up the better player. Maybe it's semantics, but to me, you blow a pick if the player taken directly after or right after ends up much much better than the player we ended up picking. Johnny Flynn over Curry is blowing the pick. Thabeet over Harden, blowing the pick. Artest over Fredric Weis is blowing the pick. If Kuzma becomes so much better than Frank, did every single NBA team blow it? If Mitchell becomes an all nba player and Frank is just a 3/D guy, I see it as a prime example of the draft being an inexact science. When I see Oden over Durant, I see a blown pick because I felt at the time Durant was about as can't miss as you can get and Oden looked like he was 100 years old.

No biggie, we just disagree on it is all. I believe there were another 4-5-6 players taken after Frank that were in some way talked about as players that could get drafted around the 8 pick or around the end of the lottery that if they end up good/great and Frank ends up at best a 3-D player then i look at it as us blowing it especially with D.Mitchell. Hey man i hope to hell i'm wrong about Frank cause i've always been one of the more optimistic fans when it comes to any player wearing the jersey of my favorite team but i'm very nervous with what i've seen so far from Frank.

Yup, no harm in disagreement. I honestly wouldn't deal Frank for anyone taken after him (taking out Mitchell obviously). It's still way way way too early to pass judgment on him and I've seen enough flashes to want to see him get better and better. I've seen too many 19-20 year olds struggle and then become good NBA players. Honestly I'm not worried about his game at all.

Yep, it's not like the kid can't become a stud in 2-3-4 years with some growth and age and a hell of a lot of practice and game time, and i'm definitely no NBA scout or any kind of scout so everything i say is coming from my untrained eye for scouting talent.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Well first of all what i said was that there's a CHANCE that we blew the pick if Frank doesn't pan out and didn't say we DID blow the pick.

If B.Adebayo, D.Mitchell, J.Collins, K.Kuzma, L.Markkanan and any other players end up good/great players or better than Frank then doesn't that mean we blew it when we could of had L.Markkanan or D.Mitchell or one of the others?? I think it does.

lauri went before frank.

That's right. Well there's still plenty of other players taken later then 8 that are looking like they're gonna be better than Frank as of now so you guys get what i'm saying.

That happens every year into the 2nd rd. It's really a circular argument. Odds are better but, talent gets found everywhere in the draft. There are at least...off hand....7-8 players in every draft that are decent/good taken outside the lottery and into the 2nd rd.

Scouting is essential. Luck is involved. A lot goes into the draft.

[NBA Fan 1234]

The idea of Ayton as "what we need to start at center" is laughable. Going right off the bat to say that. I have him in my 3rd tier at the moment, below Bags / Doncic in tier 1 and Bamba in 2 (Mikal is in tier 2.5). JJJ is outside the top 6 because I don't trust that shot at all.

Bags/Doncic
Bamba
(2.5) Mikal
Miles/Ayton

Ayton is the exact type of big we don't need next to KP.

the shot is ugly but it goes in. And him impact in other areas is amazing. Maybe he can get by like Shawn Marion did...I just like the fact he can guard the perimeter but I am super tantalized by Bamba too. But that means KP sticks at the 4...which I guess he would like

Bamba and JJJ are interchangeable to me...I guess fit wise would just give the ever so slight edge to him over Bamba because I would like KP to transition to the 5 especially after the injury.

But the wingspan and length would be nuts for either.

What do you guys think about W.Carter and R.Williams?? You think Carter is definitely center and can't play PF and the opposite for R.Williams??

I have Carter above JJJr - Carter reminds me of Al Horford. In that same way that Horford was never really a PF but never really a C, I think that's Carter. He's just a big (which isn't a bad thing).

Williams...man was I pumped to see him this year. Fell in love with his defense last year everywhere on the court and was expecting a nice step on offense. Unfortunately it never came. Dunno what happened, but to me its a red flag. Guy ends last season with one glaring weakness - offensive talent. All he had to do over the summer was put in work in the gym with mid-range jumpers, pick and pop, face up, etc. That's it. Guy comes into this season with everyone expecting he worked on that one weakness. Guy shows throughout this season he didn't work on that weakness. At all. He's been the guy I've been most disappointed in this year. In terms of what he brought to the table (finishing in the paint, defense everywhere, rebounding, tenacity, etc), he'd be an awesome fit next to KP. Oh well. I guess he's still a good fit, but I'm nowhere near as high on him as I was. Now I see just a more athletic Larry Sanders...with the same question marks about how hard he works.

Honestly, if you want some good talk (mixed with some bad and too many gifs), go to the college thread. Best thread on the Knicks board.

[newyorker4ever]

lauri went before frank.

That's right. Well there's still plenty of other players taken later then 8 that are looking like they're gonna be better than Frank as of now so you guys get what i'm saying.

That happens every year into the 2nd rd. It's really a circular argument. Odds are better but, talent gets found everywhere in the draft. There are at least...off hand....7-8 players in every draft that are decent/good taken outside the lottery and into the 2nd rd.

Scouting is essential. Luck is involved. A lot goes into the draft.

Absolutely. Just like how good/great players are found in the late 1st round and into the 2nd round, it goes the same for how in every single draft multiple high picks end up as busts. It's not easy to be a scout and i don't think there's a scout or GM out there that gets it right every time. Some of the best have drafted duds with high picks.

[mpharris36]

The idea of Ayton as "what we need to start at center" is laughable. Going right off the bat to say that. I have him in my 3rd tier at the moment, below Bags / Doncic in tier 1 and Bamba in 2 (Mikal is in tier 2.5). JJJ is outside the top 6 because I don't trust that shot at all.

Bags/Doncic
Bamba
(2.5) Mikal
Miles/Ayton

Ayton is the exact type of big we don't need next to KP.

the shot is ugly but it goes in. And him impact in other areas is amazing. Maybe he can get by like Shawn Marion did...I just like the fact he can guard the perimeter but I am super tantalized by Bamba too. But that means KP sticks at the 4...which I guess he would like

Bamba and JJJ are interchangeable to me...I guess fit wise would just give the ever so slight edge to him over Bamba because I would like KP to transition to the 5 especially after the injury.

But the wingspan and length would be nuts for either.

I hear what you're saying about the results speaking for themselves, but I still don't trust it. Hey, I might be wrong and he could become the next best stretch big (or, at the least, show he can hit it consistently in the pros). It's just an ugly release and looks like he was taught by the same guy who taught Noah a bit.

Watch on YouTube

(Can't find one of his jumper from this year.)

I think Bamba has the clear edge, though. Smooth form on his jumper, been hitting the outside shot (even if it's at a low clip), monster rebounder, monster defender on the interior and an absolute pest on the perimeter as well, and he's got a great frame to add strength. I was dead wrong on Gobert and I don't plan on making the same mistake twice. I think Bamba is going to be Gobert with offense. Even if we draft Bamba, we can still play KP at the 5. 48 minutes at the C. If we somehow manage to snag Bamba, we can give them both minutes there and can still stagger them so we're playing with 1 at all times - nobody would be scoring in the paint.

Playing both would be getting away from the small ball type of game, but, to be honest, I think "small ball" is really just another way to get the 5 most talented players on the court at the same time. I love Bamba's talent and I was a nonbeliever before the season, but he's proven me wrong.

That said, I still hope we somehow manage to get Bags / Doncic.

oh I get it...its ugly but the results speak for themselves.

He's shooting 80% from the line on over 4 attemps (good sample size) and 42% from 3

For example Bamba (while the form is nice) is shooting 68% from the line (I love Bamba too he was my preseason #3 behind Doncic an Bags.

FT shooting:

Bamba - 68%
Ayton - 73%
Carter - 70%
Bagley - 62%
JJJ - 80%

so he's got a soft touch, always a good sign when your big can shoot FT"s usually means he can then develop legit NBA range with the jump shot. Not always the case but usually.

DeAndre Jordan looks like he has pretty normal form at the line and just misses. Sometimes its just about results...and its funny like that its ugly and low...but its simple. Less moving parts.

I think the only thing that may knock mikal from being a top 5 pick (which is great if we don't be a top 5) and he's there 7 or 8 which is likely. Teams will take into consideration he is 22...maybe they wont as much now that Mitchell has thrived as an older player in a young draft. But teams do take those extra "years" of control and development into account. Going for a guy thats 19 sometimes can be more tantalizing then someone that will be 22...not always the right evaluation but I'm sure that will come into play.

[HarthorneWingo]

lol, is this the draft thread or the Frank thread?

[NYKHardKnock]

Frank grow 2 more inches and you'll be a better Nic Batum c'mon man squeeze

[NBA Fan 1234]

the shot is ugly but it goes in. And him impact in other areas is amazing. Maybe he can get by like Shawn Marion did...I just like the fact he can guard the perimeter but I am super tantalized by Bamba too. But that means KP sticks at the 4...which I guess he would like

Bamba and JJJ are interchangeable to me...I guess fit wise would just give the ever so slight edge to him over Bamba because I would like KP to transition to the 5 especially after the injury.

But the wingspan and length would be nuts for either.

I hear what you're saying about the results speaking for themselves, but I still don't trust it. Hey, I might be wrong and he could become the next best stretch big (or, at the least, show he can hit it consistently in the pros). It's just an ugly release and looks like he was taught by the same guy who taught Noah a bit.

Watch on YouTube

(Can't find one of his jumper from this year.)

I think Bamba has the clear edge, though. Smooth form on his jumper, been hitting the outside shot (even if it's at a low clip), monster rebounder, monster defender on the interior and an absolute pest on the perimeter as well, and he's got a great frame to add strength. I was dead wrong on Gobert and I don't plan on making the same mistake twice. I think Bamba is going to be Gobert with offense. Even if we draft Bamba, we can still play KP at the 5. 48 minutes at the C. If we somehow manage to snag Bamba, we can give them both minutes there and can still stagger them so we're playing with 1 at all times - nobody would be scoring in the paint.

Playing both would be getting away from the small ball type of game, but, to be honest, I think "small ball" is really just another way to get the 5 most talented players on the court at the same time. I love Bamba's talent and I was a nonbeliever before the season, but he's proven me wrong.

That said, I still hope we somehow manage to get Bags / Doncic.

oh I get it...its ugly but the results speak for themselves.

He's shooting 80% from the line on over 4 attemps (good sample size) and 42% from 3

For example Bamba (while the form is nice) is shooting 68% from the line (I love Bamba too he was my preseason #3 behind Doncic an Bags.

FT shooting:

Bamba - 68%
Ayton - 73%
Carter - 70%
Bagley - 62%
JJJ - 80%

so he's got a soft touch, always a good sign when your big can shoot FT"s usually means he can then develop legit NBA range with the jump shot. Not always the case but usually.

DeAndre Jordan looks like he has pretty normal form at the line and just misses. Sometimes its just about results...and its funny like that its ugly and low...but its simple. Less moving parts.

I think the only thing that may knock mikal from being a top 5 pick (which is great if we don't be a top 5) and he's there 7 or 8 which is likely. Teams will take into consideration he is 22...maybe they wont as much now that Mitchell has thrived as an older player in a young draft. But teams do take those extra "years" of control and development into account. Going for a guy thats 19 sometimes can be more tantalizing then someone that will be 22...not always the right evaluation but I'm sure that will come into play.

I know the results speak for themselves, but my gut just tells me it's not going to translate. I'd trust smooth form over something funky any day of the week. At least with the jumpers, the fact that the NBA game is so much faster and guys get out to shooters faster (unless you're playing us) has me thinking the consistency on the threes might change. He's not going to have his time to set up the shot, which is why the shot with less moving parts / more normal form is something I trust more. As for DJ, he's never had the shot. The form is fine, which makes me think it's either mental or he just doesn't practice.

I agree with what you're saying about Mikal. The age is definitely a factor, but his season by season improvement shouldn't be overlooked. Khris Middleton is my comparison because of the way they play in college which is eerily similar, but also because he improved year by year. I was super high on Khris in his draft and wrote about him on my old blog saying he'd be a steal (along with Dray, yay me!). I think Mikal has the same two way potential, but even better defensively because he just doesn't take a play off and he's longer, whereas Middleton has some stretches where it seems like he just doesn't care. Even though he's a couple years older, I still think he has high potential.

I'm still salty he didn't come out last year, though. Selfishly, of course, but salty nonetheless.

We need that top pick, though.

[BeagleBoss]

are those the hot picks of the week?

Ayton is what we need to start at center for us.

disagree in terms of fit next to KP, would much rather prefer Bagley or JJJ

my top 5 at the moment is

Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, then Ayton.

if were outside of the top 5 I would target Bridges

You're going to pass on Ayton because of KP who is a injury prone coming off an ACL tear?

Take Ayton and trade KP.

[newyorker4ever]

Ayton is what we need to start at center for us.

disagree in terms of fit next to KP, would much rather prefer Bagley or JJJ

my top 5 at the moment is

Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, then Ayton.

if were outside of the top 5 I would target Bridges

You're going to pass on Ayton because of KP who is a injury prone coming off an ACL tear?

Take Ayton and trade KP.

Unfortunately the return we could get for KP has now gone down, somewhat anyway. We should of let Phil trade him and got Kyrie or Tatum, Brown and picks from Boston.

[Marty McFly]

Ayton is what we need to start at center for us.

disagree in terms of fit next to KP, would much rather prefer Bagley or JJJ

my top 5 at the moment is

Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, then Ayton.

if were outside of the top 5 I would target Bridges

You're going to pass on Ayton because of KP who is a injury prone coming off an ACL tear?

Take Ayton and trade KP.

[NoLayupRule]

I feel exactly the same way

Lord knows I’m as positive and supportive of this team and it’s players as it gets. But frank has been consistently unimpressive this season

Sure, he’s 19. So is Tatum. But fine. Give him a couple of years and he might develop. I sure hope so because right now he doesn’t seem to possess any nba level skills besides a defensive instinct. Which is lovely but not nearly enough

Yeah i agree with both of you as well. I get that he's young, i get that he's never played our style basketball in the states and i get with time he should get better but as kane said, we're usually able to see something from these kids to think that there's a good/great player in that kid but i just don't see it, or haven't seen anything yet from him to say he's gonna be worth the 8th pick in the draft. We might get a 3-D player out of him playing from the 2 spot but that's not worth the 8th pick.

There's a strong chance that this is another setback for the Knicks blowing another high pick that could of been used on someone that could be a big help in this rebuild but if he doesn't pan out then just another setback in this rebuild we're in.

If i could get a nice return for trading him right now i would do it in a heartbeat and if he turned into a good player down the road for another team then i'd eat crow but i don't see it.

I sure as hell hope i'm wrong on this kid because i was all about him when we first drafted him and up until a few weeks into the season, actually i had D.Mitchell as my guy but was still good with the Frank pick.

Who else other than Mitchell would you have taken over Frank at 8? Mitchell is complete hindsight for both fans and teams. If anyone saw that Mitchell would play this way, he'd have gone near the top. Look at the other lotto players taken after Frank. DSJ, Monk, Zach Collins, Kennard, Adebayo...Given those names you can't possibly say it's looking like we blew the 8th pick.

Also, it's really not a good idea to give up on a player 55 games into his rookie season.

it pains me to say it but Lari is looking good but he was also picked at 7 so.

the guy I really wanted all along was Fox. it kills we we didn't get him.

everyone else is just whatever after Tatum and Ball and Mitchel.

Im not a fan of giving up on a rookie unless its an extraordinary situation

Frank isn't getting that kind of payback

lets develop him and hope for the best

[BeagleBoss]

disagree in terms of fit next to KP, would much rather prefer Bagley or JJJ

my top 5 at the moment is

Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, then Ayton.

if were outside of the top 5 I would target Bridges

You're going to pass on Ayton because of KP who is a injury prone coming off an ACL tear?

Take Ayton and trade KP.

Unfortunately the return we could get for KP has now gone down, somewhat anyway. We should of let Phil trade him and got Kyrie or Tatum, Brown and picks from Boston.

Minnesota was able to trade LaVine so I think there some dumb team out there who would trade high value for KPs potential. I would do it quickly if I were Perry and Mills. I have zero confidence KP comes back as good as he was and he's a ticking time bomb getting severely hurt again. This won't be the first major injury he suffers.

[3toheadmelo]

the shot is ugly but it goes in. And him impact in other areas is amazing. Maybe he can get by like Shawn Marion did...I just like the fact he can guard the perimeter but I am super tantalized by Bamba too. But that means KP sticks at the 4...which I guess he would like

Bamba and JJJ are interchangeable to me...I guess fit wise would just give the ever so slight edge to him over Bamba because I would like KP to transition to the 5 especially after the injury.

But the wingspan and length would be nuts for either.

What do you guys think about W.Carter and R.Williams?? You think Carter is definitely center and can't play PF and the opposite for R.Williams??

I have Carter above JJJr -

i been sayin that for months now!

[mpharris36]

Ayton is what we need to start at center for us.

disagree in terms of fit next to KP, would much rather prefer Bagley or JJJ

my top 5 at the moment is

Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, then Ayton.

if were outside of the top 5 I would target Bridges

You're going to pass on Ayton because of KP who is a injury prone coming off an ACL tear?

Take Ayton and trade KP.

im not a fan of the motor or his defensive IQ...I would rather have other prospects. The motor concerns the hell out of me.

[whocares1]

disagree in terms of fit next to KP, would much rather prefer Bagley or JJJ

my top 5 at the moment is

Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, then Ayton.

if were outside of the top 5 I would target Bridges

You're going to pass on Ayton because of KP who is a injury prone coming off an ACL tear?

Take Ayton and trade KP.

im not a fan of the motor or his defensive IQ...I would rather have other prospects. The motor concerns the hell out of me.

Who would you rather have than Ayton?

[BeagleBoss]

disagree in terms of fit next to KP, would much rather prefer Bagley or JJJ

my top 5 at the moment is

Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, then Ayton.

if were outside of the top 5 I would target Bridges

You're going to pass on Ayton because of KP who is a injury prone coming off an ACL tear?

Take Ayton and trade KP.

im not a fan of the motor or his defensive IQ...I would rather have other prospects. The motor concerns the hell out of me.

How does Ayton have a motor issue? I've seen the kid play hard every game I've watched. Never saw him play lazy or careless. And his IQ is not bad for someone his age. His timing on the boards and blocking shots is almost elite.

[mpharris36]

You're going to pass on Ayton because of KP who is a injury prone coming off an ACL tear?

Take Ayton and trade KP.

im not a fan of the motor or his defensive IQ...I would rather have other prospects. The motor concerns the hell out of me.

Who would you rather have than Ayton?

Doncic, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba...