The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[Trippinskarlo]

Ben Simmons 32-7-11-1-1 (1 turnover and 2 fouls) and clutch free throws at the end.

The clutch free throws are the most impressive. Already know he's capable of the rest.

[LordCovington33]

Ben Simmons shooting 83/125 (66%) in his last 10 games

[Filthadelphia]

Beezy Taught 'em

[_Joker]

Ben Simmons is doing nothing for the Donovan Mitchell ROTY push.

What does this mean?

Simmons had a very good/excellent game so given he's in competition with (the also very good/excellent) Donovan Mitchell for ROTY he's not helping Mitchell out here.

I get ya

[Black Mage]

Competitive basketball playing in the tourney against kids that'll never sniff the NBA, while Simmons was learning his system and offense, fine-tuning his practice habits at the NBA level, getting NBA-level coaching and training, getting acquainted with the league's long schedule and travel.

Sure, whatever you say.

Im all for calling Simmons a rookie this year, doesnt really make much difference to me since the ROTY award holds pretty low value in the grand scheme of things in my opinion. So I dont agree with clyde on that part, but ya I agree with Clyde on the 2nd part. Even if he was rehabbing for the majority of the year, he was still spending probably 8 hours a day working out, rehabbing, training, learning to scout and being taught by the elite of the elite for basketball. And I believe he was doing 5 on 5 drills around all star weekend or so his rookie year but just never came back, so that means he still got plenty of training against NBA quality opponents.

There are pretty strict rules on how much time a college player can train with the coaching staff per week, even then the level of training isnt even close to what someone would get in the NBA. Ya he was playing actual games, but ya give me a year of being a full time NBA player over the limits they set on college players any day of the week when it comes to bettering your game.

Agreed, but you missed the most important part: getting used to the schedule. Going from playing ~30 odd games to 82 games cross country is a HUGE change and spending an extra year prepping for that is a big advantage.

This is what a rookie wall exists. After a certain amount of games, rookies tend to stop playing well because they're just not used to the load or the travelling.

You are starting to sound like Clint Eastwood yelling at an empty chair.

[cksdayoff]

donovan mitchell played another college season, improving his game and improving his draft stock on a team that has a coach who coached in the nba while simmons sat out his rookie season and only got cleared to practice in late jan/feb.

i still don't see the big deal

[_Joker]

Simmons is just a really smooth mover, it's a joy to watch

[Kolkmania]

Watch on YouTube

There's been a shift in his workout routines as well. Early in the year he wouldn't attempt a three in open practice sessions and warmups, that changed recently.

Read on Twitter

Still hate the job the shooting staff did with his form (elbow), but at least he's getting more comfortable with them. I do think he's going to extend his range at one point.

[DCRYsing89]

Still think Simmons and Ball have the highest potential regardless. It's a toss up between Mitchell and Simmons right now for ROTY.

Tbh simmons got crazy potential yeah...
But lonzo is weird,
Like i see his prime being a 18-11-7-2 guy, which is amazing but not that high compared to tatum or mitchell who could end up 30-6-6 guys..

[jangles86]

Ben Simmons has ROTY locked.

The difference between he and Donovan Mitchell is Simmons has the potential to be a top 3 player in the world. Mitchell isn’t likely to even sniff those heights as a player.

If Simmons could get his jumper and outside shot to even a John Wall level then he’s a top 3-5 player in the nba for mine. His defence has been a lot better then advertised coming into the league.
He is that good.

[DCRYsing89]

Ben Simmons has ROTY locked.

The difference between he and Donovan Mitchell is Simmons has the potential to be a top 3 player in the world. Mitchell isn’t likely to even sniff those heights as a player.

If Simmons could get his jumper and outside shot to even a John Wall level then he’s a top 3-5 player in the nba for mine. His defence has been a lot better then advertised coming into the league.
He is that good.

I dunno, ROTY is just this year...
Yeah simmons has mad potential, but Mitchell does to, IMO he has got Kobe like potential...
Kid can score like this as a rookie, imagine once he is polished, and he got a little killer instinct, i would be suprise if they both are competing for MVP in a couple years.

[marcush]

He is a rookie because that is how the rules work.

Damn.

He's an amazing player that will deserve every iota of a ROY award. Folks need to quit looking for asterisks. (and if Mitchell happens to win, please try to accept that he deserved it as well and not look to diminish his accomplishment either)

Lets quit tearing these guys down, both are amazing. Best of luck to both to win a hotly contested award, but mostly best of luck in the next 15 years of their career giving us folks hours of enjoyment, amazement and entertainment.

Good call jazzfan. Both teams are lucky and should be confident enough in their respective players abilities without feeling the need to tear the others down.And honestly, a number of teams fan should be extremely satisfied with this years rookie class.

Its interesting how the Rookie thread is often the most easy to read thread for the 1st part of the year, yet the 2nd part it is cringe worthy. Its great at the start when everyone is hyping their rooks, sharing vids, getting enjoyment out of other teams new talents. But by this time of the year, its my guy vs your guy. Everyone has picked their sides and thats it.

[nurseryc]

Simmons has really elevated his game. He is now knocking down the outside shot with ease. It’s just a matter of time before he starts taking and making the 3. He is looking every bit as likely to be as good a player as Lebron when he hits his prime. He’s that good!

[bebopdeluxe]

Both Mitchell and Simmons have great potential - with Mitchell's potential as a perimeter closer being something that any team playing in May and June needs. He has the alpha dog mentality that you need to be a closer, in addition to a great offensive toolbox. He has Dame/DWade-like upside - if I were a Jazz fan I would be STOKED.

However, as others in this thread have said, Simmons' potential to throw triple doubles and 5x5's out there on the reg simply puts him on another level...and that does not even count his All-Defensive Team play RIGHT NOW.

There are probably national ROY voters who are "Process" haters, or those who will hold Ben's "redshirt" year against him (even though Mitchell benefitted from an extra year of top-tier D-1 basketball playing and experience, while Ben did not even travel with the Sixers last season...but I digress). I could still see Mitchell winning ROY, in spite of games like last night for Ben and some potential 10-for-24 and 9-for-28 shooting nights for Mitchell (BUT DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK LAST WEEKEND YO). But - just like I am much happier having Saric than Brogdon - Mitchell can keep the hardware, as long as my team keeps Ben Simmons.

[michaelm]

Both Mitchell and Simmons have great potential - with Mitchell's potential as a perimeter closer being something that any team playing in May and June needs. He has the alpha dog mentality that you need to be a closer, in addition to a great offensive toolbox. He has Dame/DWade-like upside - if I were a Jazz fan I would be STOKED.

However, as others in this thread have said, Simmons' potential to throw triple doubles and 5x5's out there on the reg simply puts him on another level...and that does not even count his All-Defensive Team play RIGHT NOW.

There are probably national ROY voters who are "Process" haters, or those who will hold Ben's "redshirt" year against him (even though Mitchell benefitted from an extra year of top-tier D-1 basketball playing and experience, while Ben did not even travel with the Sixers last season...but I digress). I could still see Mitchell winning ROY, in spite of games like last night for Ben and some potential 10-for-24 and 9-for-28 shooting nights for Mitchell (BUT DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK LAST WEEKEND YO). But - just like I am much happier having Saric than Brogdon - Mitchell can keep the hardware, as long as my team keeps Ben Simmons.

I actually wouldn't have a problem with Mitchell winning it, if Utah end up with a better record than the Sixers he would deserve the award almost regardless of anything else imo, and as you say I am not sure why there there is much fuss about the award anyway.

Actual widespread arguments including from ex-players about Simmons not really being a rookie are arrant nonsense imo however and irritate me; at his stage in his career he is having a season, particularly given it is his first season as a point guard, so good as to be almost inconceivable pre-season. Was anyone predicting his season and attributing it to him being a red shirt pre-season ?. He and Mitchell were also barely in high school or not in high school when Griffin won his award, and the pertinent rule for eligibility as a rookie was then as it is now.

Similarly, those who knock Mitchell for being inefficient/a chucker are also being nonsensical when Utah are on a tear substantially due to his shooting/scoring, particularly in the clutch.

[sixerswillrule]

I just don’t understand how you can argue that one player is another scorer by removing several aspects of scoring, and then including things that are not scoring.

The bash one player to prop up the other is more logical than that. I don’t understand how scoring excludes FT’s, 3’s, and Usage...but at the same time includes passing and assists.

Ya Im not getting this one either. I get there is a difference between a shooter and a scorer, but Mitchell is both. Hes a scorer that can also shoot. Taking away FTs and 3s is taking away 2 major components of scoring.

I get the argument 100% if it is Ben is the more complete overall offensive player, since he is the better facilitator while still only scoring 3 less points on the same efficiency. But ya I think the numbers show Mitchell being the better scorer with a wider variety of ways to score. While I think Ben is a good scorer, not as good or as versatile as Mitchell when it comes to scoring, but Ben has a more complete offensive package when you include his facilitating.

Offense is scoring, so Ben being the all around better offensive player means he is the better scorer. Shooting, specifically talking about shooting percentages which other than TOV is all Mitchell has over Simmons, is but a part of scoring. Again, they pretty much score the same, with Simmons being the better facilitator meaning he probably exceeds the six point difference created by Mitchell attempting and making two more threes a game, which is why Simmons ORTG is 106 to Mitchell's 103.

Ben being the all around better offensive player (which is debatable) means he is better overall in helping his team score points, not that he himself is a better scorer.

The way I see it is:

Individual scoring - Mitchell has the clear edge.
Overall offense (scoring + facilitating/passing/etc.) - Close. I can see the argument for Mitchell having the slight edge.
Overall player (offense + defense) - Ben has the edge, somewhere between slight and clear.

[dukes_wild]

Simmons has really elevated his game. He is now knocking down the outside shot with ease. It’s just a matter of time before he starts taking and making the 3. He is looking every bit as likely to be as good a player as Lebron when he hits his prime. He’s that good!

[PhilBlackson]

Simmons has really elevated his game. He is now knocking down the outside shot with ease. It’s just a matter of time before he starts taking and making the 3. He is looking every bit as likely to be as good a player as Lebron when he hits his prime. He’s that good!

When LeBron was Simmons' age he was averaging 31.4ppg, 7.0rpg & 6.6apg had a respectable 3pt shot (or shot in general) and singlehandedly made the Cavs a 50W team with no one that even REMOTELY was at Embiid's level n got the them to the 2nd round in the Playoffs.

Simmah down there just a lil bit champ.

[Duke4life831]

Simmons has really elevated his game. He is now knocking down the outside shot with ease. It’s just a matter of time before he starts taking and making the 3. He is looking every bit as likely to be as good a player as Lebron when he hits his prime. He’s that good!

When LeBron was Simmons' age he was averaging 31.4ppg, 7.0rpg & 6.6apg had a respectable 3pt shot (or shot in general) and singlehandedly made the Cavs a 50W team with no one that even REMOTELY was at Embiid's level n got the them to the 2nd round in the Playoffs.

Simmah down there just a lil bit champ.

Ya its pretty crazy what Lebron was doing at such a young age. Just a completely random thing, but I think its crazy that Giannis is only a 1.5 years older than Simmons.

Really curious to what kind of jump we will see from Simmons in his 2nd year. Curious if we will see any improvement with that jumper. If we do, watch out.

[CoreyGallagher]

He’s never going to score as much as Lebron, comparing them and their points per game doesn’t make sense. He’s going to be a special Point Guard, though.