The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[Jazztop]

Lonzo with a great game today!

8/7/6/6 steals
+24 on the team and just giving Miami no chance.

Was really really close to having a quadruple double...If he wasn't injured, he would be without a doubt be the ROY. Alot better version of Simmons and puts up better numbers than Mitchell.
When was the last time a rookie scored a quadruple double? Lonzo has a chance in the remaining games I think. No other rookie can come close to putting up numbers like that, he is by far the best defender in the rookie class as well. BY FAR.

this is a serious forum. Take your trolling elsewhere

[lilswift01]

Lonzos game is so fun and unique. Ive never seen anything quite like it.

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[LakersSoul]

Lonzos game is so fun and unique. Ive never seen anything quite like it.

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You cant see it by watching only highlights.
You dont see it by reading the stats.

Lonzo provides that pace and passing culture that speeds up the game and turns players into team culture. It took awhile and now players are buying into that and if they play defense and continue to share the ball, they are going to be trouble going forward.

Lastly, the defense was initially underrated and now teams and fans are appreciating the length and intensity on the defensive side plus stepping into the passing lanes. You think he is lucky in the right spot and the right time. You think others can easily do what Lonzo is doing but oddly not many have the smarts to do that and anticipate the ball movements. Some plays are so funny. Lonzo goes and just takes the ball away as if the opponents are handing him the ball and just surprised by him.

[commentatorer]

Simmons is really hard to stop in the post, should play there more often but Philly's offensive strategy probably doesn't endorse that.
When Embiid is not playing, Simmons should definitely post-up as much as possible.

[Revived]

Josh Jackson needs to get more recognition. He doesn't get anywhere near the hype that Tatum does despite outplaying Tatum since calendar year of 2018 started.

Since 2018 started, Tatum is averaging 12.5 points, 4.1 rebounds, and 1 block, while shooting 33.3% from beyond the arc, 42.6% from the field, and 80.8% from the charity stripe. He has zero double-doubles while scoring 20 or more points twice, and scoring in double-figures 15 out of 22 games. Almost everything down from from his season’s start.

Meanwhile Jackson, who has only started 11 games during this span, is averaging 16.5 points, 6 rebounds, 1 steal, while shooting 45% from the field, 30.3% from 3, and 70% from the free throw line – except for steals, everything is up considerably from his own start.

Another thing to note is that Tatum has started in all 60 games that he has played. He is averaging 30.8 minutes per game, and has been a key contributor on an offense directed by an All-NBA point guard.

Josh Jackson has been playing behind T.J. Warren, has only started 24 of his 61 games, and on the year hasn’t averaged only 23.5 minutes per game while only playing alongside a legitimate point guard on the roster for seven games, three with Eric Bledsoe, and now four with Elfrid Payton.

If Jackson played along Kyrie like Tatum gets to do, Jackson is probably in the ROY discussion with Simmons/Mitchell imo.

The two player’s stats per-36 minutes, (a decent enough method to determine what two players might average if they played equal minutes), and their season-long stats are a completely different story with their non-equal playing time:

Per-36 minutes, Josh Jackson has a statline average of 17.4p/6.4r/1.9a/1.3s/.7b.

Jayson Tatum, on the other hand, has averaged of 15.8p/5.9r/1.6a/1.1s/.9.

https://tinyurl.com/yc5ocbpu

[nurseryc]

Lonzo with a great game today!

8/7/6/6 steals
+24 on the team and just giving Miami no chance.

Was really really close to having a quadruple double...If he wasn't injured, he would be without a doubt be the ROY. Alot better version of Simmons and puts up better numbers than Mitchell.
When was the last time a rookie scored a quadruple double? Lonzo has a chance in the remaining games I think. No other rookie can come close to putting up numbers like that, he is by far the best defender in the rookie class as well. BY FAR.

Your post is actually more bizarre than Lonzo’s shooting style

[commentatorer]

Yesterday in the Cleveland game when Simmons split defenders and dunked, that produced the greatest commentary in NBA history - Marv Albert: O what a move by Simmons!
I remember Marv using that line many times of course, the most famous was 1991 when Jordan went baseline on the Knicks.

[JellosJigglin]

Lonzos game is so fun and unique. Ive never seen anything quite like it.

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Been saying this since UCLA. He's a new prototype for a PG. We haven't seen a PG like this who fills the stat sheet on such low usage. Very unique game.

[bebopdeluxe]

Yesterday in the Cleveland game when Simmons split defenders and dunked, that produced the greatest commentary in NBA history - Marv Albert: O what a move by Simmons!
I remember Marv using that line many times of course, the most famous was 1991 when Jordan went baseline on the Knicks.

While people like to rave about Mitchell's dunks and offensive arsenal, people should not sleep on Ben.

A mixtape of Ben's best plays would be pretty dope.

[commentatorer]

Yesterday in the Cleveland game when Simmons split defenders and dunked, that produced the greatest commentary in NBA history - Marv Albert: O what a move by Simmons!
I remember Marv using that line many times of course, the most famous was 1991 when Jordan went baseline on the Knicks.

While people like to rave about Mitchell's dunks and offensive arsenal, people should not sleep on Ben.

A mixtape of Ben's best plays would be pretty dope.

Yes, and I'm not sure what the current stats are but a month ago Simmons was 4th in the NBA in points scored in the paint, so the odds are he's had a lot more highlights than Mitchell (jump shots are not what I'd call highlights).

[Jkam31]

Fox gets no love on here smh dude has the clutch gene and in the last 25 games he’s shooting 38% from 3


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Fox is a baller but he won't be ROY. Season long numbers arent there.

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We can show love to players that aren’t Mitchell or Simmons though


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[HotelVitale]

Yesterday in the Cleveland game when Simmons split defenders and dunked, that produced the greatest commentary in NBA history - Marv Albert: O what a move by Simmons!
I remember Marv using that line many times of course, the most famous was 1991 when Jordan went baseline on the Knicks.

I prefer Marv's 'a specTACular move from...!' most memorably when MJ switched hands in the Finals against the Lakers.

As for Simmons in the post, the Sixers use it here and there and that seems wise. Simmons has the size, trength, and quicknes to be great there but he still forces things there and doesn't have a great sense of what a good or bad shot is in the post yet. However, they work in post touches for him pretty frequently and give him the option of hitting a shooter or else working in the post (and of course he's really good at watching the court for cutters/shooters while he's working his defender). He gets to make a quick read and keeps the defense guessing, and he usually scores at least a bucket or two that way each game.

It's better as an occasional option rather than a forced go-to move, though, since Simmons isn't good enough to dominate there yet (unlike Embiid), and since the offense as a whole works via cuts and hand-offs and constant motion of their shooters (Redick, Covington, Belinelli, now Ilyasova) and needs to be fluid and unpredictable.

[Paradise]

15 Pts, 13 Rebs, 3 Blks

Watch on YouTube

[cl2117]

Josh Jackson needs to get more recognition. He doesn't get anywhere near the hype that Tatum does despite outplaying Tatum since calendar year of 2018 started.

Since 2018 started, Tatum is averaging 12.5 points, 4.1 rebounds, and 1 block, while shooting 33.3% from beyond the arc, 42.6% from the field, and 80.8% from the charity stripe. He has zero double-doubles while scoring 20 or more points twice, and scoring in double-figures 15 out of 22 games. Almost everything down from from his season’s start.

Meanwhile Jackson, who has only started 11 games during this span, is averaging 16.5 points, 6 rebounds, 1 steal, while shooting 45% from the field, 30.3% from 3, and 70% from the free throw line – except for steals, everything is up considerably from his own start.

Another thing to note is that Tatum has started in all 60 games that he has played. He is averaging 30.8 minutes per game, and has been a key contributor on an offense directed by an All-NBA point guard.

Josh Jackson has been playing behind T.J. Warren, has only started 24 of his 61 games, and on the year hasn’t averaged only 23.5 minutes per game while only playing alongside a legitimate point guard on the roster for seven games, three with Eric Bledsoe, and now four with Elfrid Payton.

If Jackson played along Kyrie like Tatum gets to do, Jackson is probably in the ROY discussion with Simmons/Mitchell imo.

The two player’s stats per-36 minutes, (a decent enough method to determine what two players might average if they played equal minutes), and their season-long stats are a completely different story with their non-equal playing time:

Per-36 minutes, Josh Jackson has a statline average of 17.4p/6.4r/1.9a/1.3s/.7b.

Jayson Tatum, on the other hand, has averaged of 15.8p/5.9r/1.6a/1.1s/.9.

https://tinyurl.com/yc5ocbpu

Jackson is definitely getting a little slept on because of how things started for him, but I think the bolded is a pretty big stretch.

Tatum's numbers aren't overly impressive in large part because he's the 3rd option on the floor usually. Jackson would be the same. I think if the two players were swapped Jackson would definitely be getting more recognition as a contributor to a top team, but I also think his numbers would be at best similar to what Tatum is putting up now. He's not as polished a scorer and overlaps a lot with Brown so I think to suggest that he'd end up in the ROY discussion is a bit much.

I actually think the setup in Phoenix gives Jackson a better chance at getting more recognition as the season goes on because they're going to continue to up his importance to continue is development while also competing in the tank race. I think he's going to have an opportunity to really turn heads as they bring him more into the fold and make him a focal point for them.

If anything I think Tatum would get the bump in terms of ROY race if the roles were reversed because his big advantage has always been his NBA readiness. He would have been a starter from day 1 and probably be putting up closer to 15+ shots a game instead of 10. Even in that scenario though I don't think Tatum would be in the conversation with Mitchell and Simmons. My worry with him is his aggressiveness/assertiveness, which I think would hold him back from putting up the kind of numbers that Mitchell has been. And he's just not the all-around player that Simmons is.

Really excited to see them both down the stretch though. Jackson is getting his sea legs and is starting to impress. Tatum is doing great in the role the C's have him in, but he's going to need to step up if they want to really make waves in the playoffs.

[levon]

From Lakersground:

Lonzo Ball currently has a better 3pt% than Dennis Smith Jr., averages more blocks per game than Bam Adebayo & Lauri Markkanen, and despite playing in 15 less games this season, has more steals (58) than De'Aaron Fox (53)

[jcsunsfan]

Josh Jackson in February. Josh Jackson in February: 17.7 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.1 bpg. 0.8 spg, 45.4 FG%

I am not making a case for ROTY discussion, because the earlier part of the year matters. But he is getting better game by game. Early in the year he over played, hurried, tried to move too fast. He has now settled down and is playing with a little more control and picking his spots to use those marvelous skills and athleticism. He is going to be an excellent defender as well.

As a Suns fan, I am thrilled.

[levon]

Josh Jackson in February. Josh Jackson in February: 17.7 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.1 bpg. 0.8 spg, 45.4 FG%

I am not making a case for ROTY discussion, because the earlier part of the year matters. But he is getting better game by game. Early in the year he over played, hurried, tried to move too fast. He has now settled down and is playing with a little more control and picking his spots to use those marvelous skills and athleticism. He is going to be an excellent defender as well.

As a Suns fan, I am thrilled.

What's a good comp for him? I have roughly Tobias Harris as a floor/average, am I in the ballpark?

[commentatorer]

Yesterday in the Cleveland game when Simmons split defenders and dunked, that produced the greatest commentary in NBA history - Marv Albert: O what a move by Simmons!
I remember Marv using that line many times of course, the most famous was 1991 when Jordan went baseline on the Knicks.

I prefer Marv's 'a specTACular move from...!' most memorably when MJ switched hands in the Finals against the Lakers.

As for Simmons in the post, the Sixers use it here and there and that seems wise. Simmons has the size, trength, and quicknes to be great there but he still forces things there and doesn't have a great sense of what a good or bad shot is in the post yet. However, they work in post touches for him pretty frequently and give him the option of hitting a shooter or else working in the post (and of course he's really good at watching the court for cutters/shooters while he's working his defender). He gets to make a quick read and keeps the defense guessing, and he usually scores at least a bucket or two that way each game.

It's better as an occasional option rather than a forced go-to move, though, since Simmons isn't good enough to dominate there yet (unlike Embiid), and since the offense as a whole works via cuts and hand-offs and constant motion of their shooters (Redick, Covington, Belinelli, now Ilyasova) and needs to be fluid and unpredictable.

Simmons already has a better hook shot (and with both hands) than Embiid.
And even when he takes 'bad shots' in the post, they usually go in.
Philly need to prepare for Embiid's upcoming injuries, and that would mean Simmons being the main man in the post.
I would not like to see a whole season (without Embiid) of Simmons dishing to 3-point-shooters, given how streaky Philly are from downtown (they seem to all shoot poorly on the same night).

[Young gun 6]

Can anyone tell me how John Collins has been going? He has some of the best metrics in the league for rookies.

10/7/1/1/1 with 1 turnover in 23mins a game on 58/32/73

PER of 19.5
TS 62%
4.2 win shares
1.6 BPM

Those advanced stats are nice on a team which wouldn’t be helping that one bit.

Any analysis on him?

[HotelVitale]

Simmons already has a better hook shot (and with both hands) than Embiid. And even when he takes 'bad shots' in the post, they usually go in. Philly need to prepare for Embiid's upcoming injuries, and that would mean Simmons being the main man in the post.

I've seen almost every minute of Simmons' play this year and it's hard to believe you have if you're saying this. Most of the time his post touches go nowhere and they just keep working the ball around, and he also turns the ball over quite a bit or takes bad shots when he forces the issue. And no those shots absolutely do not 'go in usually' when he takes them--you don't have to watch Simmons long to see he sometimes forces things and takes weird shots that don't have much hope of going in. His percentages are pretty high because he gets a lot of dunks and because he shoots well off drives going hard to his left or right--but he's shooting something like 34% on shots he creates himself from 3-12 ft this year, and that's not counting TOs.

I love Simmons and have a ton of faith in his progress but his instincts and skills for NBA post play aren't quite there yet (and the Sixers clearly give him many of those touches every night). I think it should be a part of his game eventually but the Sixers would be in trouble if they switched to an offense centered on Simmons posting up 20 times a game right now.