2018 Trade Ideas thread

[Slava]

I don't even understand why this has to be either/or. We can keep both.

[SlimShady83]

I don't even understand why this has to be either/or. We can keep both.

Exactly!

[milesfides]

The Kuzma and Randle frontcourt can work, but to what extent? Depends on expectations. For example, will they provide the elite defense that usually accompanies championship teams?

There's also an opportunity cost. A player that's worth the max doesn't necessarily mean he's a championship caliber player, nor does it mean he's the right piece at the right time.

Not saying Julius Randle isn't, but you have to consider all the factors. Jordan, Kobe, Lebron - none of those guys won by themselves. You need hall of fame talent, but at the right time in the right context.

Consider what Kuzma has shown in his rookie year. His potential as a flex four and natural scorer. He's also on a rookie contract, as opposed to Randle in a contract year poised for the max. Even if one prefers Julius Randle to Kyle Kuzma, in absolute terms, it's not necessarily the right move, since the Lakers can spend money at other positions of need that better our team as a whole.

[Mirjalovic]

Randle has been better in each and every years in his time in the league. It’s isn’t just contract year

[Dloading99]

Randle.

Kuzma can play but if the Lakers decide they have to move that Deng contract they'll package Kuzma with Deng.

At this point Kuzma has to prove is or does he want to be Ryan Anderson or complete his game with getting to the basket. posting up and working on his dribble and finding others and his defense.

[Vae Victus]

Kuzma all day everyday over Randle

Not because he's a better player, but because all he costs is <2% of the salary cap for the next 3 years. Thats a freaking GOLDMINE of value that needs to be mined to the last bit. Also when he becomes a RFA his caphold is gonna be something pathetic like 6-7 mil or something. Meaning we can do the whole FA thing while keeping his caphold and then resigning him with Bird Rights. Also he's solid outside shooter for a 4, so that means whoever he plays with, will be given a nice spaced floor to play with. Defense can use work though, but with more time in the L he'll get there.

Randle has definitely played well and has obvious strengths. However i dont think he's a good complimentary player if/when we get some high end FAs. He doesnt space the floor, ball dominant, undersized at the 5, D isnt all that great (mostly due to lack of size), decision making can be suspect. However his WORST blemish is that he's gonna get paid now. He gets a reasonable fair deal thats basically 17-20mil a year right there. If he doesnt improve his offensive tools, we're gonna be stuck with a very one dimensional player that needs a unicorn at the 5 to really maximize him (IE give him the paint full time). He can become an anchor on our cap much like how more forward thinking fans commenced bitching about Jordan Clarkson's deal before the ink dried. Had Clarkson kept improving then he'd been worth his contract, but he didnt and we lucked out that CLE took him for expirings.

Now this isnt to say Randle isnt a good player, just in an ideal world, he shouldnt be a high option to keep IF your team is given better options to pursue (LBJ, PG13).

With luck, LBJ is willing to take a paycut allowing us time to figure a way to not need to renounce Randle and hold onto his RFA rights. With even more luck we get a copy of the Nerlens Noel situation and resign Randle for a year for dirt cheap

Cap management is key... cant fritter it away on players who dont provide huge impact. Teams need to pay for superstars first before paying 2nd tier players.

Edit: Deng isnt an unmovable anchor. He's a bitch to move, no doubt, just need to attach enough 1st rounders to make a tank squad take the cap hit. Attaching Kuzma to dump Deng is just stupid. If Deng had 3 years left i can understand, but just 2 years, thats a tough pill to swallow. BUT i'd pull the trigger if it guarantees LBJ/PG13 coming to town, make no mistake about that.

[Dr Aki]

Can't really play Kuzma against bigger PFs yet, even bigger SFs

You can how easily he gets physically overwhelmed. Once he fills out, and can hold his own without getting bumped out of the way, he'll be the long term starting PF.

He's a rookie though, plenty of time to get in the weight room

[Kilroy]

Randle's only 8mos older than Kuzma... Maybe the rookie thing doesn't matter a whole lot.

Kuzma has shown he's a streaky scorer with the ability to score at a pretty high volume if given space to do so.. No defense to speak of until after the all star break and now he's only a little below average. He's got some BBIQ issues too... Tends to be a black hole and take quick shots instead of moving the ball... And he's show no ability to play off of Ingram so far.

Money aside, IF Randle/Kuzma ever became an actual thing, it'd pretty clearly have to be Randle, at least right now. I think it's safe to say even factoring in upside, Kuzma is never going to be the defensive presence Randle is... He's never going to be the rebounder Randle is, and has shown no inclination to be the passer or have the court vision Randle does...

[TyCobb]

If you know anything about NBA basketball... it's all about mismatches. There are a lot of Kuzma's in the league, very few Randle's. The end.

[Landsberger]

Yup. We traded for him..... Magic, Worthy, Wilt, Pau, Lamar, Rice and Kareem too. Those picks were not ours.What do you call it?

We traded for the right to draft him. We drafted Kobe. You know it, and I know it. The fact that there were formalities is just that. The hornets picked the guy we asked them to pick....and we got him the second the pick was made. We traded Divac for the Hornets #13 draft pick. This was all agreed to weeks before the draft.

You took a jump in saying that I was asserting that we didn't develop him. Not my point at all.

Your quote: "The Lakers previous title runs all included players we traded for and FA's. We traded for Kobe and signed Shaq. Kareem was traded for. Wilt was traded for." <-------- kinda feels like your lumping Kobe in that mix, does it not?

We "drafted Kobe" (traded for the right to draft him....whatever you wanna call it) and he counts as one of those guys we developed through the draft. He certainly more than counts that way through the spirit of the argument your making. Would you say we "traded for" whoever this Cavs pick turns out to be?

Yes...we did sign guys like Shaq and Kareem. But we drafted guys like Magic and Kobe. It's been a bit of both.

My personal opinion: The Lakers seem to draft, and then sign FA big men to surround them. Sometimes not in that order.

You can twist the trade all you want but somehow the trade we made for Kobe is different than all other trades ever in your world. He wasn't someone we could get without having to trade something of value (a top 8 center btw). That's the point I was making. Same with Magic and Worthy. We traded players away (in some cases good players) to get those picks. Again, we wouldn't be in a position to get those guys if we didn't trade for the picks.

Somehow you believe that trading for a pick is different than trading for a player. That's where you're off IMHO. It's the same thing.

Somehow my "lumping" Kobe in with Shaq and Kareem you stretched that to "develop"? Come on!

BTW... you've shown your knowledge gaps above. I'll let you find them but factually you're off on a couple things.

[Kilroy]

BTW Guys... The 'Kuzma or Randle' premise is so weak it doesn't really deserve a thread of it's own in all honesty...
Like someone said, we can keep both if we want to, and whether we keep Randle or not has absolutely nothing to do with Kuzma...
So it was either merge it here, where we discuss potential roster moves, or lock it up...

[Dloading99]

At this point

Randle does a lot of what we need. he's a big who can handle it. you can post him up. he can shoot three's he can play defense when motivated.

and With the guys we have we are building a team around our draft picks. When you look at guys on this team Randle with Ingram gives us something. it still makes the defense have to game plan. Cleveland didn't have an answer for him. but shoot Dallas and Denver didn't have an answer for hm. he plays great bully ball. he finally after coming back from the broken Leg looks explosive and when you develop these guys and they develop you have to keep them. I remember Jerry West talking about that.

and looking at this team. we are the Next Golden State after their run we are where they are. a team with great draft picks developing coming into their own. with good vets we are bringing in. Lonzo Randle Ingram with Lopez and Thomas

like you saw with Curry Klay and Drayomnd when they brought in Iggy.

in a draft of Embbid and Wiggins how would you rank that draft for us honestly.

1. Embiid 2. Wiggins 3. Randle 4. Parker


The Lebron stuff and Paul George stuff is fine but with our roster we don't need to rely and beg on superstars to come. we have a roster that is going to compete. Houston is in the Golden State window we aren't in that window. so our window is perfect for where our guys are going to be. we can still compete and then we'll be running the league. we don't need to beg superstars.

[wco81]

BTW Guys... The 'Kuzma or Randle' premise is so weak it doesn't really deserve a thread of it's own in all honesty...
Like someone said, we can keep both if we want to, and whether we keep Randle or not has absolutely nothing to do with Kuzma...
So it was either merge it here, where we discuss potential roster moves, or lock it up...

Keep both as well as sign two big FAs along the way?

[Landsberger]

Randle's only 8mos older than Kuzma... Maybe the rookie thing doesn't matter a whole lot.

Kuzma has shown he's a streaky scorer with the ability to score at a pretty high volume if given space to do so.. No defense to speak of until after the all star break and now he's only a little below average. He's got some BBIQ issues too... Tends to be a black hole and take quick shots instead of moving the ball... And he's show no ability to play off of Ingram so far.

Money aside, IF Randle/Kuzma ever became an actual thing, it'd pretty clearly have to be Randle, at least right now. I think it's safe to say even factoring in upside, Kuzma is never going to be the defensive presence Randle is... He's never going to be the rebounder Randle is, and has shown no inclination to be the passer or have the court vision Randle does...

There is another side to this. Kuzma spreads the floor and has shown growth in his offensive game in just 60 games while Randle still is drive or nothing for the most part. Randle is much better at driving than a couple years ago, don't get me wrong, but he's still not expanded his offensive game much at all.

Kuzma's defense and rebounding (of late) are a little closer to Randle's in my opinion if you look at it in total. Randle's rebounding is very sporadic and he gets 2 or 3 a game where he's either blocked or misses at the rim. Kuzma is rebounding pretty well for where he's playing most of the time. Randle can play perimeter D very well however he often gets lost in the paint. His defensive rebounding is lacking at times as well. He gets the nod on both but to me it's not as clear of an advantage.

BBIQ is equal to me. Randle still becomes a black hole and lets emotion get to his game quite a bit. Kuzma does too but seems to have an innate feel for the game that Randle lacks at times. Both can have WTF moments. One's a rookie and one's a 4 year vet. Will Kuzma have as many issues in a couple years at this level? Don't know.

They are very different players. Kuzma could develop into a SF given the time and opportunity. To me they both have versatility but Randle as a Center is more of a situational option over a real position for him. Kuz could play either forward position at a high level. To me, Kuzma is the one guy who could score over 20 on this team with the most varied offensive attack. He's shown versatility on offense that no one else possesses on this team at the moment.

It's a great debate to have. 2 good front court players who seem to be on the upswing. Randle's play this year has made me rethink my earlier thoughts on him. He's showing he can finish at the hoop and play the other end as well. Kuzma came out of nowhere. He played extremely well early in the season. He's had a 38 point game and a 15 rebound game. Not a lot of rookies can say that. I think making judgements on what he can be is a little premature until he gets a summer at this level under his belt.

The elephant in the room is Randle's contract, our wanting of 2 max guys and our forward glut if we get those guys. If we lose Randle we're very fortunate to have Kuzma who will at the very least be a great option for us going forward. If we keep Randle then it's a bonus to have Kuzma. Gonna be a wild ride IMHO.

[RamonSessions7]

BTW Guys... The 'Kuzma or Randle' premise is so weak it doesn't really deserve a thread of it's own in all honesty...
Like someone said, we can keep both if we want to, and whether we keep Randle or not has absolutely nothing to do with Kuzma...
So it was either merge it here, where we discuss potential roster moves, or lock it up...

Keep both as well as sign two big FAs along the way?

Depends on timing/who's making what, but yes it is possible.

[danfantastk32]

You can twist the trade all you want but somehow the trade we made for Kobe is different than all other trades ever in your world. He wasn't someone we could get without having to trade something of value (a top 8 center btw). That's the point I was making. Same with Magic and Worthy.

BTW... you've shown your knowledge gaps above. I'll let you find them but factually you're off on a couple things.

Well...I clearly won't find them, if I don't know them. But that's ok. =0)

I think your also still twisting the concept here: trading for a draft pick is still essentially "building through the draft". If you got said draft pick 4-hours or a week after the draft actually happened....your still taking a risk on potential.

Maybe I misread you....but you seemed to be saying that the Lakers don't go for potential, historically. We trade for proven commodities. But the truth is.....we've drafted (or "traded for draft picks") several times in our history. Kobe is one of those. 3 days after the draft, you arent even a rookie. Season hasn't started yet. Your just a 'picked' draft pick.

Did OKC trade for any of their draft picks?? who knows? Certainly doesnt change the CONCEPT of what they did. They build through the draft, with draft picks.


But whatever. Moving on....I liked your analysis of Randle vs Kuz. My thought: If we are able to get PG and Lebron...I think we will have to part with one. I think it will be Kuz myself.

I think Randle brings things to the table that Lebron doesnt so much anymore, and that PG never did....while Kuz, Lebron, PG, and to some extent Ingram are all kinda overlapping in skill sets. Not saying I agree....not saying I'm right....but thats how I see the writing on the wall. I think Kuz will also have more appeal due to his low contract. So you might find a buyer for Deng/Kuz/Cle-pick

In the name of "Lebron and PG" they will make that deal. And it will prob be better for Kuz. He'll get playing time with us.....but how much 4th quarter playoff time will he really get with those guys here? That will start to gnaw at him.

[milesfides]

Neither are great defenders in the frontcourt. For a championship, you need a 3 and D basket protector with Randle or just a more traditional rebounder and defender with Kuzma.

In theory, it’ll be easier to find a partner to Kuzma.

[Kilroy]

Neither are great defenders in the frontcourt. For a championship, you need a 3 and D basket protector with Randle or just a more traditional rebounder and defender with Kuzma.

In theory, it’ll be easier to find a partner to Kuzma.

Wuh? Randle's an elite defender in the front court...

[ak7]

Neither are great defenders in the frontcourt. For a championship, you need a 3 and D basket protector with Randle or just a more traditional rebounder and defender with Kuzma.

In theory, it’ll be easier to find a partner to Kuzma.

Wuh? Randle's an elite defender in the front court...

Elite in the front court and he’s turning into one heck of a perimeter defender as well.

[milesfides]

He’s gotten better, but I really don’t see any support for elite. Elite is having a defensive player of the year candidate in the frontcourt (small ball crunch time lineups counts) which most championship teams have had. Draymond Green and Kevin Durant, Lebron and Bosh, Duncan and Kawhi, Gasol and Odom, Shaq and Horry, etc.

That’s elite. Championship winning defense.