The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[bebopdeluxe]

And that's where you'll get an argument from people...the "clearly" part. I don't think it's clearly either player. Your shtick is to put a z at the end of Point to argue scoring is less important...Maybe I should start putting a Z at the end of Triple Doublez. I mean we're all seeing how much those Triple Doublez matter with Westbrooks team dominating the league and all...oh wait...

As a sidenote on the Sixers...Maybe it's time to give Embiid a lot more credit than he gets. Without Embiid that Sixers team doesn't even have a winning record let alone make the playoffs. He is huge. You almost forget how big he is until he's next to other bigs.

I think Mitchell and Simmons both have very credible and legit cases for winning rookie of the year. It's not clearly either way, they're both having amazing seasons.

Fair point about Embiid. By the way, what was the Jazz's record the last time Gobert was out?

(it was 4-and-11)

And while you - and other Jazz fans - may tire of POINTZ!!!, at the end of the day, it is the driving force behind what Mitchell brings to the table.

This is your failure. Not seeing how much more Mitchell does and is capable of ON TOP of the fact that he is a great scorer and how critical that is. You ignoring how much Mitchell has on his shoulders as the primary scorer on the team and what that requirement means.

When teams recognized what Mitchell was doing, they started to design their entire defense around stopping him from getting his...he is still scoring and has now passed the 20 ppg mark in his rookie season and the Jazz are a playoff team right now. You not understanding the value of having a guy who does this and simply dismissing him as a volume scorer is why nobody can have a rational discussion about this with you.

Simmons is fantastic at a lot of things but he also has glaring weaknesses (no jumpshot matters, even if you want to think it doesn't...it's like having a quarterback who can't pass in the pocket..sure RGIII got away with it for a bit, but it caught up to him...I'm not saying Simmons isn't great in so many ways he makes up for it, but it's an issue. And the FT thing).

Mitchell is fantastic too, but he has weaknesses he needs to work on. Now that he IS the focal point of the defense, his efficiency consistency is taking a hit and he needs to work on that. But he contributes in other categories all over as well...including Defensively.

I believe Wade is a perfect comparison for Mitchell. If that's what the Jazz have...I'm in heaven. Simmons...many compare him to Magic's game...I can see that. I don't see the LeBron ones totally, because LeBron's shot was quite a bit better. But Simmons is not a finished product and a hard worker so i can see him working on it. Excited to see how things go in the playoffs when pace slows and the half court becomes such a factor.

As far as head to head matchups...I don't care about those at all. Prime example, Deron Williams worked CP3 in most head to heads..we saw how that turned out in the end and how much meaning that has

AARRGGHH!!!



Can't you - or SOMEONE - stop with all of this subjective crap and simply make a STATISTICAL CASE (you know...analytics...advanced stats...you know, FACTS) as to why Mitchell is having a better season than Simmons?

I get it. He is a great scorer (even if his ineffencies negate Simmons' offensive weakness from the perimeter in terms of TS and eFG - oops, sorry...I should know better to reference analytics in this debate). And I am sorry that I do not see what Mitchell "is capable of" other than scoring (statistical/analytical support, please?) or any of the other subjective assertions you make in your post.

This is the essence of my issue with those who say that Mitchell deserves the ROY over Simmons. You can't make the argument within the context of team success, as both teams are doing well (although one could argue that the Sixers winning 20+ more games year-over-year and likely having homecourt would mean something). I could sit here and argue that being a ROOKIE POINT GUARD is a heavier lift then being a wing scorer, but that is the kind of subjective argument that I am trying to avoid here.

My argument is simple. Simmons is the better rookie because - statistically - Simmons is having a superior season...both in terms of head-to-head comparisons as well as relative contribution to team. Period. You can say all of your subjective "well, teams all gear their defenses to stop Mitchell" (as if NO team tries to game-plan around Simmons, LOL), and "you don't see what Mitchell is capable of" (newsflash - statistics and advanced analytics actually SHOW what a player is capable of doing...right?).

I should know by now not to expect a Mitchell supporter to be able to support - with statistics, analytics and FACTS - the position that Mitchell is having a better season than Simmons...because they can't. Numbers and statistics don't lie.

We will see what the voters think.

[APettyJ]

"Mitchell has a case..."

Sigh...

Read on Twitter

?s=19


In any other year he is the favorite. It's not that close this year, if just going straight by the facts. His historical shooting prowess does not come close to the overall impact Simmons has a rookie player, emphasis on player, for those who even want to try to tout the "not a rookie" nonsense. He didn't play last year, no matter what else he did, although he wasn't cleared for 5x5 scrimmages until April 17th. He played his first NBA game this year.

[PhilBlackson]

Zzzzzzzzz....just to break the monotony of this boring back n forth over Simmons/Mitchell....

Watch on YouTube

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[michaelm]

Fair point about Embiid. By the way, what was the Jazz's record the last time Gobert was out?

(it was 4-and-11)

And while you - and other Jazz fans - may tire of POINTZ!!!, at the end of the day, it is the driving force behind what Mitchell brings to the table.

This is your failure. Not seeing how much more Mitchell does and is capable of ON TOP of the fact that he is a great scorer and how critical that is. You ignoring how much Mitchell has on his shoulders as the primary scorer on the team and what that requirement means.

When teams recognized what Mitchell was doing, they started to design their entire defense around stopping him from getting his...he is still scoring and has now passed the 20 ppg mark in his rookie season and the Jazz are a playoff team right now. You not understanding the value of having a guy who does this and simply dismissing him as a volume scorer is why nobody can have a rational discussion about this with you.

Simmons is fantastic at a lot of things but he also has glaring weaknesses (no jumpshot matters, even if you want to think it doesn't...it's like having a quarterback who can't pass in the pocket..sure RGIII got away with it for a bit, but it caught up to him...I'm not saying Simmons isn't great in so many ways he makes up for it, but it's an issue. And the FT thing).

Mitchell is fantastic too, but he has weaknesses he needs to work on. Now that he IS the focal point of the defense, his efficiency consistency is taking a hit and he needs to work on that. But he contributes in other categories all over as well...including Defensively.

I believe Wade is a perfect comparison for Mitchell. If that's what the Jazz have...I'm in heaven. Simmons...many compare him to Magic's game...I can see that. I don't see the LeBron ones totally, because LeBron's shot was quite a bit better. But Simmons is not a finished product and a hard worker so i can see him working on it. Excited to see how things go in the playoffs when pace slows and the half court becomes such a factor.

As far as head to head matchups...I don't care about those at all. Prime example, Deron Williams worked CP3 in most head to heads..we saw how that turned out in the end and how much meaning that has

AARRGGHH!!!



Can't you - or SOMEONE - stop with all of this subjective crap and simply make a STATISTICAL CASE (you know...analytics...advanced stats...you know, FACTS) as to why Mitchell is having a better season than Simmons?

I get it. He is a great scorer (even if his ineffencies negate Simmons' offensive weakness from the perimeter in terms of TS and eFG - oops, sorry...I should know better to reference analytics in this debate). And I am sorry that I do not see what Mitchell "is capable of" other than scoring (statistical/analytical support, please?) or any of the other subjective assertions you make in your post.

This is the essence of my issue with those who say that Mitchell deserves the ROY over Simmons. You can't make the argument within the context of team success, as both teams are doing well (although one could argue that the Sixers winning 20+ more games year-over-year and likely having homecourt would mean something). I could sit here and argue that being a ROOKIE POINT GUARD is a heavier lift then being a wing scorer, but that is the kind of subjective argument that I am trying to avoid here.

My argument is simple. Simmons is the better rookie because - statistically - Simmons is having a superior season...both in terms of head-to-head comparisons as well as relative contribution to team. Period. You can say all of your subjective "well, teams all gear their defenses to stop Mitchell" (as if NO team tries to game-plan around Simmons, LOL), and "you don't see what Mitchell is capable of" (newsflash - statistics and advanced analytics actually SHOW what a player is capable of doing...right?).

I should know by now not to expect a Mitchell supporter to be able to support - with statistics, analytics and FACTS - the position that Mitchell is having a better season than Simmons...because they can't. Numbers and statistics don't lie.

We will see what the voters think.

I am tired of the argument and I mostly agree with you .

Either player can be ROTY or they can both be without it being a travesty, and it doesn’t mean much in the long sweep of history anyway particularly if both go on to have storied careers as seems not unlikely. Maybe the new Wade and the new Magic Johnston have turned up at the same time. I guess Johnston was somewhat better than Wade, but as has been argued Mitchell seems to have all the basic tools in place already while Simmons doesn’t quite.

Leaving comparisons with all time greats aside Simmons is looking like a rather excellent point guard anyway, and even if he doesn’t ever becomes a dominant scorer might be good enough to take the Sixers a long way fairly soon. As an Australian basketball fan I am delighted with what he is doing, and so should all Sixers fans be regardless of whether he is given ant award which does not seem to be that big a deal anyway.

[bebopdeluxe]

I am tired of the argument and I mostly agree with you .

Either player can be ROTY or they can both be without it being a travesty, and it doesn’t mean much in the long sweep of history anyway particularly if both go on to have storied careers as seems not unlikely. Maybe the new Wade and the new Magic Johnston have turned up at the same time. I guess Johnston was somewhat better than Wade, but as has been argued Mitchell seems to have all the basic tools in place already while Simmons doesn’t quite.

Leaving comparisons with all time greats aside Simmons is looking like a rather excellent point guard anyway, and even if he doesn’t ever becomes a dominant scorer might be good enough to take the Sixers a long way fairly soon. As an Australian basketball fan I am delighted with what he is doing, and so should all Sixers fans be regardless of whether he is given ant award which does not seem to be that big a deal anyway.

We will see if the Wade/Johnson analogy is on point - I don't find it a perfect fit (Magic was nowhere near the defender that Simmons is, and Wade was nowhere near the volume shooter that Mitchell looks to be - at least early in his career), but there are similarities. Not really sure how Mitchell has all of Wade's tools already established but Simmons does not have Magic's - remember that Magic had no perimeter game when he cam into the league, either.

[APettyJ]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[Litany]

I am tired of the argument and I mostly agree with you .

Either player can be ROTY or they can both be without it being a travesty, and it doesn’t mean much in the long sweep of history anyway particularly if both go on to have storied careers as seems not unlikely. Maybe the new Wade and the new Magic Johnston have turned up at the same time. I guess Johnston was somewhat better than Wade, but as has been argued Mitchell seems to have all the basic tools in place already while Simmons doesn’t quite.

Leaving comparisons with all time greats aside Simmons is looking like a rather excellent point guard anyway, and even if he doesn’t ever becomes a dominant scorer might be good enough to take the Sixers a long way fairly soon. As an Australian basketball fan I am delighted with what he is doing, and so should all Sixers fans be regardless of whether he is given ant award which does not seem to be that big a deal anyway.

We will see if the Wade/Johnson analogy is on point - I don't find it a perfect fit (Magic was nowhere near the defender that Simmons is, and Wade was nowhere near the volume shooter that Mitchell looks to be - at least early in his career), but there are similarities. Not really sure how Mitchell has all of Wade's tools already established but Simmons does not have Magic's - remember that Magic had no perimeter game when he cam into the league, either.

Let see...their body types are identical, with their height and wingspan being literally the same (6' 3'' height and 6' 10'' wingspans).

The main differences people have pointed to is Mitchell has a better 3-pt shot...hence why a lot of people have said this looks like Wade with a jump shot...and Wade got to the line a little more than Mitchell.

http://bkref.com/tiny/RafZB

But if you look at their stats there is a ton of similarity...people want to label Mitchell a chucker...yet his TS% is better than Wade's was in his rookie season (54% vs 53%).

Look at their per 36 #'s -> Mitchell has more ppg, but they have similar Rebounds (4.0 vs 4.2), Assists (3.9 vs 4.7), Stls (1.6 vs 1.5) Blk (0.4 v 0.6) FT (82.1% 74.7%).

I'd say Wade is much more than a guy who gets "Pointz" wouldn't you? .

And their playstyle is eerily similar...serious question...do you not see that?

Have you maybe never watched a Jazz game and seen how Mitchell plays? Maybe you just boxscore watch and draw all your hatred for DM from there?

As far as Simmons, I think people are stating there are glaring holes (no jumpshot and Deandre Jordan level FT making) that need to be addressed while Mitchell's has the foundation and it's more about polishing all of it to reach his potential.

[Litany]

I am tired of the argument and I mostly agree with you .

Either player can be ROTY or they can both be without it being a travesty, and it doesn’t mean much in the long sweep of history anyway particularly if both go on to have storied careers as seems not unlikely. Maybe the new Wade and the new Magic Johnston have turned up at the same time. I guess Johnston was somewhat better than Wade, but as has been argued Mitchell seems to have all the basic tools in place already while Simmons doesn’t quite.

Leaving comparisons with all time greats aside Simmons is looking like a rather excellent point guard anyway, and even if he doesn’t ever becomes a dominant scorer might be good enough to take the Sixers a long way fairly soon. As an Australian basketball fan I am delighted with what he is doing, and so should all Sixers fans be regardless of whether he is given ant award which does not seem to be that big a deal anyway.

We will see if the Wade/Johnson analogy is on point - I don't find it a perfect fit (Magic was nowhere near the defender that Simmons is, and Wade was nowhere near the volume shooter that Mitchell looks to be - at least early in his career), but there are similarities. Not really sure how Mitchell has all of Wade's tools already established but Simmons does not have Magic's - remember that Magic had no perimeter game when he cam into the league, either.

If you're ACTUALLY interested in seeing how similar Wade and Mitchell are, have a look at this video for a breakdown on their similarities in style...if you were just stating it rhetorically I guess carry on.

This video is fun because it talks about specifics. Like how they gather and protect the ball with their different moves etc....

Watch on YouTube

I hope you can see how special it is that a guy is doing this instead of the constant nonsense of "pointz"

Mitchells agility and speed and physical tools are rare. If it was just volume scoring, people wouldn't be interested in him like they are and your constant dismissiveness of how special it all is doesn't serve Ben in any way, it just impacts your own credibility.

[bebopdeluxe]

I am tired of the argument and I mostly agree with you .

Either player can be ROTY or they can both be without it being a travesty, and it doesn’t mean much in the long sweep of history anyway particularly if both go on to have storied careers as seems not unlikely. Maybe the new Wade and the new Magic Johnston have turned up at the same time. I guess Johnston was somewhat better than Wade, but as has been argued Mitchell seems to have all the basic tools in place already while Simmons doesn’t quite.

Leaving comparisons with all time greats aside Simmons is looking like a rather excellent point guard anyway, and even if he doesn’t ever becomes a dominant scorer might be good enough to take the Sixers a long way fairly soon. As an Australian basketball fan I am delighted with what he is doing, and so should all Sixers fans be regardless of whether he is given ant award which does not seem to be that big a deal anyway.

We will see if the Wade/Johnson analogy is on point - I don't find it a perfect fit (Magic was nowhere near the defender that Simmons is, and Wade was nowhere near the volume shooter that Mitchell looks to be - at least early in his career), but there are similarities. Not really sure how Mitchell has all of Wade's tools already established but Simmons does not have Magic's - remember that Magic had no perimeter game when he cam into the league, either.

If you're ACTUALLY interested in seeing how similar Wade and Mitchell are, have a look at this video for a breakdown on their similarities in style...if you were just stating it rhetorically I guess carry on.

This video is fun because it talks about specifics. Like how they gather and protect the ball with their different moves etc....

Watch on YouTube

I hope you can see how special it is that a guy is doing this instead of the constant nonsense of "pointz"

Mitchells agility and speed and physical tools are rare. If it was just volume scoring, people wouldn't be interested in him like they are and your constant dismissiveness of how special it all is doesn't serve Ben in any way, it just impacts your own credibility.

Again - I am not "dismissing" Mitchell's ability or his potential. He is obviously a gifted player with a ton of upside. If I were a Jazz fan I would be stoked that he will be on my team for the next decade.

All that I have been saying - backed by repeated posts in painstaking detail to the board - is that Simmons is having a better season. That's it. I have backed that statement with several posts laying out my statistical case for Simmons, and have invited backers of Mitchell to make their statistical, analytical case that backs the assertion that Mitchell is more worthy of ROY than Simmons. It really is that cut and dry - I am not even getting into the subjective aspects of the debate (where I assure you that I can make as many subjective statements to support Simmons as you and others make to support Mitchell).

If you do not agree that Simmons is having a better season than Mitchell, then I am welcome to see you substantiate that position with statistics and analytical data - as I have done in great detail. The numbers do not lie - in both player-comparison as well as relative contribution to team, there is simply no contest.

Have a great day.

[TFK]

I’m a Sixers fan. This whole thread is hilarious/frustrating. Both players are great.

I’ve been saying for a while now, Mitchell reminds me of Wade, mostly from a shot creating/making standpoint as well as a general positive vibe he exhibits like “I may not be the tallest, the fastest, the best shooter... but you know what, I’m going to win this game and there’s nothing you can do about it.”

So to me, it’s kind of like a mini-Wade vs mini-LeBron/Magic comparison. I love both options. Both will have fantastic careers. Simmons has a chance to be more “special” though given his measurable and playing style, especially if he can get a passable jumper. Mitchell, while potential to be great, could be great in not as unique of a way (or put another way, a more easily replaceable/duplicated greatness)

I think Simmons has (or should have) the edge this year for ROTY, but not by much. If I had my choice who I want on my team, I’ll take Simmons for the first 46 minutes and Mitchell for the last 2 minutes. Ahhh screw that, just redo the 2017 draft and give me both.

[bebopdeluxe]

I’m a Sixers fan. This whole thread is hilarious/frustrating. Both players are great.

I’ve been saying for a while now, Mitchell reminds me of Wade, mostly from a shot creating/making standpoint as well as a general positive vibe he exhibits like “I may not be the tallest, the fastest, the best shooter... but you know what, I’m going to win this game and there’s nothing you can do about it.”

So to me, it’s kind of like a mini-Wade vs mini-LeBron/Magic comparison. I love both options. Both will have fantastic careers. Simmons has a chance to be more “special” though given his measurable and playing style, especially if he can get a passable jumper. Mitchell, while potential to be great, could be great in not as unique of a way (or put another way, a more easily replaceable/duplicated greatness)

I think Simmons has (or should have) the edge this year for ROTY, but not by much. If I had my choice who I want on my team, I’ll take Simmons for the first 46 minutes and Mitchell for the last 2 minutes. Ahhh screw that, just redo the 2017 draft and give me both.

This is a great post. I think that it is the uniqueness of what Simmons brings to the table that differentiates him from Mitchell. I do not want to go down that subjective "rabbit hole", but while Mitchell is a quintessential assassin/closer - which every team who wants to play in May and June needs - what Simmons does, on both sides of the ball, is just so unique and different. On offense, he is a 6'10" Jason Kidd...able to rebound the basketball and GO - with size, speed and strength that you just do not see in traditional point guards...while on defense, his ability to guard virtually ANY position 1-to-5 (at an All-Defensive-Team level) is truly unicorn-like.

That is in addition to all of the statistical and analytical ways the guy pollutes a box score.

For the Sixers to get where the need to go, they NEED someone with a closer's mentality like Mitchell - that's for sure (hopefully, we get that when we sign LeBron this summer).

[Sasashi]

my simple question specificaly to Utah Jazz fans....

if Bryan Colangelo this summer calls your GM and proposes a straight up trade , Utah gets Ben Simmons and the Sixers receive Donovan Mitchell? Would you agree to it ?? Has nothing to do with Rookie of the Year, but would just like to see your answers.

[TFK]

my simple question specificaly to Utah Jazz fans....

if Bryan Colangelo this summer calls your GM and proposes a straight up trade , Utah gets Ben Simmons and the Sixers receive Donovan Mitchell? Would you agree to it ?? Has nothing to do with Rookie of the Year, but would just like to see your answers.

I think Jazz fans might ask the same question in reverse to us Sixers fans. I’d politely decline of course, because not only do I give the slight edge to Simmons straight up, but like I said, all things being equal, a “Simmons” is harder to find than a “Mitchell”

[bebopdeluxe]

my simple question specificaly to Utah Jazz fans....

if Bryan Colangelo this summer calls your GM and proposes a straight up trade , Utah gets Ben Simmons and the Sixers receive Donovan Mitchell? Would you agree to it ?? Has nothing to do with Rookie of the Year, but would just like to see your answers.

I think Jazz fans might ask the same question in reverse to us Sixers fans. I’d politely decline of course, because not only do I give the slight edge to Simmons straight up, but like I said, all things being equal, a “Simmons” is harder to find than a “Mitchell”

I do not to to denigrate what Mitchell has done - he is scoring the ball at a historical level for a rookie - but there is some truth to this, IMO...which ties into the post I just made above. A player his size...being able to do what he can do on both sides of the ball (as a point guard and as a defender) is truly unique. I mean there are many elite wing scorers in the league, and just about every draft year brings at least another 1-2 of them into the league. Players with Simmons’ size, speed, strength and skill package - on both sides of the ball - are a much more rare commodity, IMO.

Simmons can always develop a jumper and improve his free throw percentage. Mitchell isn’t going to grow 7-8 inches, elongate his wingspan and be able to guard all five positions on the floor. They are different players, with different strengths...but IMO Simmons is just the more unique and versatile skill package.

Sorry for the subjective nature of the posts. I will get back to bludgeoning the board with advanced metrics soon enough...

[Litany]

8-)

my simple question specificaly to Utah Jazz fans....

if Bryan Colangelo this summer calls your GM and proposes a straight up trade , Utah gets Ben Simmons and the Sixers receive Donovan Mitchell? Would you agree to it ?? Has nothing to do with Rookie of the Year, but would just like to see your answers.

I think Jazz fans might ask the same question in reverse to us Sixers fans. I’d politely decline of course, because not only do I give the slight edge to Simmons straight up, but like I said, all things being equal, a “Simmons” is harder to find than a “Mitchell”

I do not to to denigrate what Mitchell has done - he is scoring the ball at a historical level for a rookie - but there is some truth to this, IMO...which ties into the post I just made above. A player his size...being able to do what he can do on both sides of the ball (as a point guard and as a defender) is truly unique. I mean there are many elite wing scorers in the league, and just about every draft year brings at least another 1-2 of them into the league. Players with Simmons’ size, speed, strength and skill package - on both sides of the ball - are a much more rare commodity, IMO.

Simmons can always develop a jumper and improve his free throw percentage. Mitchell isn’t going to grow 7-8 inches, elongate his wingspan and be able to guard all five positions on the floor. They are different players, with different strengths...but IMO Simmons is just the more unique and versatile skill package.

Sorry for the subjective nature of the posts. I will get back to bludgeoning the board with advanced metrics soon enough...

the flow of your posts...

You say things like "I'm not trying to denigrate what Mitchell is doing...what he's doing is historic for a rookie"...

then a few sentences later it's "at least another 1-2 of guys like Mitchell come into the league every year." So he's not special, according to you.

It's impossible to have a conversation with you when you make comments that constantly contradict and the obvious thinly veiled homerism and insults.

I'm expecting Mitchell to be a top 3 SG in his prime and lead a championship team. I could totally be wrong but I think it's a good bet to expect Mitchell to be a top 10 player in the league. The kid has real game.

We aren't talking about projecting him as some starting level Shooting Guard. What Mitchell brings to the table IS special and IS unique...just as what Simmons brings is special and unique.

Like I said...I don't know why I bother..

[Sasashi]

yo lattimer....answer my question and forget about what you perceive as backhanded compliments.

If u're offered ben simmons for donovan mitchell for the next 10 years...would you accept the trade??

[Sasashi]

yo lattimer....answer my question and forget about what you perceive as backhanded compliments.

If u're offered ben simmons for donovan mitchell for the next 10 years...would you accept the trade??

[Sasashi]

yo lattimer....answer my question and forget about what you perceive as backhanded compliments.

If u're offered ben simmons for donovan mitchell for the next 10 years...would you accept the trade??

[Alatan]

my simple question specificaly to Utah Jazz fans....

if Bryan Colangelo this summer calls your GM and proposes a straight up trade , Utah gets Ben Simmons and the Sixers receive Donovan Mitchell? Would you agree to it ?? Has nothing to do with Rookie of the Year, but would just like to see your answers.

Im not a Jazz fan but if is was i would say no. Simmons fans think that Simmons is more talented because he is a 6 10 pg but the thing is that he is very difficult to build around because he needs the ball in his hands and a ton of shooting to be effective. Mitchell, on the other hand, can play on any team and be great.

Apart from facilitating (witch is hindered by his lack of offensive threats to open up space and lanes) and rebounding (witch is easily replaceable by role players) Simmons has no advantages over Mitchell.
Stats put Simmons as a better defender than Mitchell but i think that the stats are skewed because of Simmons rebounding role and weak defensive backups. From what ive seen of Simmons, as big as he is, he is not much of a rim protector so he basically guards 1-3. Same as Mitchell. And they are both good at it.

On the other hand Mithcell is a much better shooter, shot creator and offball player witch helps his team in a way stats dont present.

If you put Simmons on the Jazz or other teams that dont have tons of shooting he wouldnt be half as effective as he is now. If you want to add another star player that needs the ball in his hands Simmons wouldnt be half as effective.

I also think that Simmons' game is easy to gameplan for. Start defending him at around 16 feet from the basket. Defend the pass and make him attack the rim. Paddle back and contest at the rim. Force him to to his left hand and let him shoot his running hooks. If it is the case, we will see in the playoffs.

[mediocrityrules]

my simple question specificaly to Utah Jazz fans....

if Bryan Colangelo this summer calls your GM and proposes a straight up trade , Utah gets Ben Simmons and the Sixers receive Donovan Mitchell? Would you agree to it ?? Has nothing to do with Rookie of the Year, but would just like to see your answers.

Im not a Jazz fan but if is was i would say no. Simmons fans think that Simmons is more talented because he is a 6 10 pg but the thing is that he is very difficult to build around because he needs the ball in his hands and a ton of shooting to be effective. Mitchell, on the other hand, can play on any team and be great.

Apart from facilitating (witch is hindered by his lack of offensive threats to open up space and lanes) and rebounding (witch is easily replaceable by role players) Simmons has no advantages over Mitchell.
Stats put Simmons as a better defender than Mitchell but i think that the stats are skewed because of Simmons rebounding role and weak defensive backups. From what ive seen of Simmons, as big as he is, he is not much of a rim protector so he basically guards 1-3. Same as Mitchell. And they are both good at it.

On the other hand Mithcell is a much better shooter, shot creator and offball player witch helps his team in a way stats dont present.

If you put Simmons on the Jazz or other teams that dont have tons of shooting he wouldnt be half as effective as he is now. If you want to add another star player that needs the ball in his hands Simmons wouldnt be half as effective.

I also think that Simmons' game is easy to gameplan for. Start defending him at around 16 feet from the basket. Defend the pass and make him attack the rim. Paddle back and contest at the rim. Force him to to his left hand and let him shoot his running hooks. If it is the case, we will see in the playoffs.

Not sure i agree here. Everyone knows that Simmons likes to drive hard to the rim if given any room, yet they still can't stop it from happening. The fact that he fills the stat sheet in 30 mins per game (as it has been lately) shows that his game isn't easy to gameplan for, or he's just too freaking good on the execution. ALso, if you look at highlights of his passing from the last game, there's no way that anyone can defend most of those passes. He passes through lanes that just don't exist in the defensive handbook. I'm sure a Simmons fanboy can post a couple of the more ridiculous ones on here (like the long bounce pass to Saric if i remember correctly - which i think Saric was fouled on and didn't convert?)

As an aside, also not sure i agree of the Mitchell supporters trying to downplay the value of a triple double. If it was easy stat padding then we'd see it happening a lot more than it does. It's a damn hard thing to accomplish, especially from somone only 70-odd games into their NBA career. It's also almost impossible to hit 40 pts when you're 70-odd games into your career, yet these guys have accomplished both respectively.

As another aside, you also can't mention that Simmons stats are empty stats across the board, and then in the same post argue how Mitchell does so much more than just score, yet his broader stats show him doing the other things at a lower rate/effectiveness than Simmons. It's a completely contradictory argument that a couple of posters have made more than once to denegrate one players overall stats and in the same breath lift up anothers (and yes, this argument can be made to supporters of both players, as Mitchell DOES do more than just score points, just as SImmons is NOT full of empty stat games).