ECSF: P1 | (2) Boston Celtics vs Philadelphia 76ers (3) | BOS 1-0

[bebopdeluxe]

1. Embiid
2. Simmons
3. Irving
4. Horford
5. Hayward
6. Brown
7. Covington
8. Tatum
9. Rozier
10. Ilyasova

This is a pretty silly ranking (if that's what it is). In what world is Simmons a better player than Kyrie? He might not even be better than Hayward or Horford.

Kyrie WITH TWO HEALTHY KNEES may be a better player than Simmons. Obviously that is not the case.

As far as Hayward and Horford, the world where Simmons is better than both of them is PLANET EARTH.

[cl2117]

Sorry to burst your bubble but I "literally" just explained to you why it wasn't. Feel free to argue against one of my points rather than rehash the same faulty argument. Otherwise you're 'grasping for straws' given your obsession with the phrase

Anyway, if you believe Saric is ever the 5th option behind Covington then you are beyond redemption. George Hill scored 17ppg for the Jazz last year so I'm not sure that's the best argument to use either. Somebody had to score for that team but just like this year, it's Gobert's defense that translates to success.

Mate you're wrong. Get over it. No one EVER suggested Hayward is a transcendent talent. You saying that people were is absolutely a strawman. Following it up and saying that it was inferred by "exaggerating the gap between Hayward/Saric" is dumb. Stop digging, it just makes you look even worse.

Say Saric is underrated or Hayward overrated? Sure. But when you start saying that people said outlandish things like "Hayward is a transcendent talent" when "literally" no one but you did, that's a strawman.

"Celtics fans are acting like" ≠ "Celtics fans said." A definitive claim versus a speculative claim; that's where you're wrong. At worst the transcendent talent remark was hyperbole (even that I'm not convinced of) but seeing as it was never my argument it most certainly isn't a straw man argument.

I'm sorry if you guys don't understand what a straw man argument is.

DIG THAT HOLE! DIG THAT HOLE! Shall we put up a plaque that says "Here lies SuperDario, he chose to die on this hill despite being clearly wrong for unknown stupid reasons"? Maybe put a definition of "strawman argument" there so others can learn from your mistakes?

You didn't say "Celtics fans are acting like", you said:

Funny how a 1 time All-Star in the heart of his prime is suddenly regarded as a transcendent talent.

Show me where a Celtics fan acted like or said Hayward was a transcendent talent? I'll wait.

DIG THAT HOLE! I believe in you SuperDario!

[ITYSL]

By exaggerating the gap between Hayward/Saric, they acted like Hayward was a transcendent talent. That's my assertion. In no way is that a straw man argument considering (a)"acting like" in this case is subject to my valuation of each player and (b) it was an isolated point within a much bigger argument.

Example of a straw man argument: the people arguing that Saric isn't as good as Hayward. Nobody in this thread ever said he was, and unlike my point that's not a matter of subjective opinion. Get it?

Literally no one acted like Hayward was a transcendent talent, dude. It was a strawman argument. Get over it.

The Hayward of last year was the lead option on a team that won a playoff round in the much more difficult WC, and he scored 24ppg in the playoffs doing it. Transcendent talent? No. Top 20 player? Sure!

Meanwhilw, Saric is the 4th option on the Sixers, sometimes 5th depending on how RoCo or Bellinelli is playing. There is a sizable gap, sorry if the truth hurts the feelings of a poster named SuperDario. Good Lord I am just done here lol

Sorry to burst your bubble but I "literally" just explained to you why it wasn't. Feel free to argue against one of my points rather than rehash the same faulty argument. Otherwise you're 'grasping for straws' given your obsession with the phrase

Anyway, if you believe Saric is ever the 5th option behind Covington then you are beyond redemption. George Hill scored 17ppg for the Jazz last year so I'm not sure that's the best argument to use either. Somebody had to score for that team but just like this year, it's Gobert's defense that translates to success.

Yeah, I get that you explained it. Your explanation was dumb. No one was saying, implying, or regarding Hayward as a transcendent talent. Keep digging, though, it's fun to watch.

My point stands re:Saric v. Hayward. I'll grant you that Saric isn't ever the 5th option behind RoCo now, but he definitely was earlier in the season, and the whole season counts when comparing whole seasons. Hayward was 1st option and an AS on a team that won a playoff series in the WC; Saric is typically the 4th option on the Sixers behind Embiid/Simmons/Redick. There's a sizable gap. Sorry "SuperDario."

[bebopdeluxe]

I'd take the Simmons of the last 3-4 months or so over Kyrie. Kyrie's a fantastic player but Simmons is just otherworldly right now, on both ends.

For both ends sure for majority of the game, but if it's a close game and you need those buckets Kyrie is your man, easily.

Until Ben gets a legit jumpshot, then everyone is screwed.

Yeah if we're talking this season alone and both are healthy I'd rather have Kyrie on the Bucks because of fit. Dude is an insane shotmaker from basically everywhere. Will slit your throat in the clutch and feel nothing. Just think as an overall player Ben has inched past him.

Problem is we may have seen the last of Uncle Drew. Kyrie can still be an impact player for sure...but as a guy who can play 70+ regular season games and another 20 in the playoffs at an Uncle Drew level? We will have to see about that.

[cl2117]

For both ends sure for majority of the game, but if it's a close game and you need those buckets Kyrie is your man, easily.

Until Ben gets a legit jumpshot, then everyone is screwed.

Yeah if we're talking this season alone and both are healthy I'd rather have Kyrie on the Bucks because of fit. Dude is an insane shotmaker from basically everywhere. Will slit your throat in the clutch and feel nothing. Just think as an overall player Ben has inched past him.

Problem is we may have seen the last of Uncle Drew. Kyrie can still be an impact player for sure...but as a guy who can play 70+ regular season games and another 20 in the playoffs at an Uncle Drew level? We will have to see about that.

I think you need to check into his injury. Not saying this isn't signs of an issue that will continue, but to say something like "we may have seen the last of Uncle Drew" doesn't mesh with the actual facts. His knee is structurally sound, this surgery changes nothing about that.

Totally fair to suggest that he might struggle to play at least 70 games a season, but in those games he does play he'll be the same old Uncle Drew (at least that's what the doctors are saying).

[Snotbubbles]

Why? They've all got almost identical stats. Like eerily similar stat. I'd say it's a push at best.

Dario (PTS/TRB/AST/STL/BLK/TOV/FG%/3P%/TS%):
14.6/6.7/2.7/0.7/0.3/1.9 on .453 / .393 / .582

Jaylen (PTS/TRB/AST/STL/BLK/TOV):
14.5/4.9/1.6/1/0.4/1.8 on .465/ .395 / .562

Jayson (PTS/TRB/AST/STL/BLK/TOV):
13.9/5/1.6/1.0/0.7/1.4 on .475 / .434 / .586

Their advanced stats are all relatively close as well. I think it's pretty even across the board with those 3 guys.

I was surprised he didn't make it on the list as well, but those 3 would be clustered on my list (I'd sandwich Dario just for fairness and take your pick of the C's player you put ahead of them since it's all equal in my mind).

Dario
PER: 15.8
BPM: 1.4
VORP: 2.0

Brown
PER: 13.6
BPM: -0.2
VORP: 1.0

Tatum
PER: 15.3
BPM: 1.0
VORP: 1.8

That's why I have Dario over those two. No one said it wasn't close.

Didn't say that you said it wasn't close, just asking why. Still not seeing anything enough to give one the edge over the others. Tatum is on par with those advanced stats (and is more efficient overall) and Brown has outplayed them both during the playoffs while taking the bronze in advanced stats. I say it's splitting hairs, but was just curious why you had Dario rated above both when they're all so close statistically.

Dario wasn't even on the original list. When he quite clearly should have been. I don't really feel like splitting hairs as to who is better between Dario, Brown and Tatum. It was a glaring omission, I think we can both agree.

Dario
MP: 29.6
FG%: .453
3P%: .393
FT%: .860
TRB: 6.7
AST: 2.6
PTS: 14.6
PER: 15.8
TS%: .582
USG: 20.9
BPM: 1.4
VORP: 2.0

Hayward (age 23)
MP: 36.4
FG%: .413
3P%: .304
FT%: .816
TRB: 5.1
AST: 5.2
PTS: 16.2
PER: 16.2
TS%: .520
USG: 23.1
BPM: 1.0
VORP: 2.1

I'd say they're pretty similar.

Sure if you turn the clock back 5 years, but that's a terrible way to compare two players now. Hayward took the next step after the season you're referencing, Saric will have to do that to stay on pace. And this brings us back to what are we really talking about? Are the similar players now? NO. Hayward is definitely a notch above. Are the on similar development paths? Sure. But unless people start being more specific when talking about one over the other this is all just a pointless circle-jerk.

If you see every post I made in the thread, I have already acknowledged that Dario still has a developmental ways to go to reach Hayward's current level. It seems you're just arguing to argue.

[bebopdeluxe]

Yeah if we're talking this season alone and both are healthy I'd rather have Kyrie on the Bucks because of fit. Dude is an insane shotmaker from basically everywhere. Will slit your throat in the clutch and feel nothing. Just think as an overall player Ben has inched past him.

Problem is we may have seen the last of Uncle Drew. Kyrie can still be an impact player for sure...but as a guy who can play 70+ regular season games and another 20 in the playoffs at an Uncle Drew level? We will have to see about that.

I think you need to check into his injury. Not saying this isn't signs of an issue that will continue, but to say something like "we may have seen the last of Uncle Drew" doesn't mesh with the actual facts. His knee is structurally sound, this surgery changes nothing about that.

Totally fair to suggest that he might struggle to play at least 70 games a season, but in those games he does play he'll be the same old Uncle Drew (at least that's what the doctors are saying).

That's not what Danny Ainge is saying.

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2018/03/08/danny-ainge-kyrie-irving-will-have-to-manage-knee-soreness-his-whole-career/

There is a difference between being an All-Star and being Uncle Drew. Right?

This is one of the key issues. If Irving's career is impacted - even a little - by having to manage a balky knee for the rest of his career, then Ainge has basically hitched his wagon, in essence, to two max contracts for Top 20-to-25-level players. If Kyrie is not the same player that he was 2-3 years ago, IT MATTERS.

We will have a MUCH better sense of the 3-to-5-year outlook for the Celtics next March - 65 to 70 games into the season. If both Irving and Hayward are back playing at the top of their respective games, then the Celtics are in good shape. Given that both are home right now on their respective couches eating cheese puffs, I do not think it is unreasonable to wait and see where these guys are next spring before declaring that all is well.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Mate you're wrong. Get over it. No one EVER suggested Hayward is a transcendent talent. You saying that people were is absolutely a strawman. Following it up and saying that it was inferred by "exaggerating the gap between Hayward/Saric" is dumb. Stop digging, it just makes you look even worse.

Say Saric is underrated or Hayward overrated? Sure. But when you start saying that people said outlandish things like "Hayward is a transcendent talent" when "literally" no one but you did, that's a strawman.

"Celtics fans are acting like" ≠ "Celtics fans said." A definitive claim versus a speculative claim; that's where you're wrong. At worst the transcendent talent remark was hyperbole (even that I'm not convinced of) but seeing as it was never my argument it most certainly isn't a straw man argument.

I'm sorry if you guys don't understand what a straw man argument is.

DIG THAT HOLE! DIG THAT HOLE! Shall we put up a plaque that says "Here lies SuperDario, he chose to die on this hill despite being clearly wrong for unknown stupid reasons"? Maybe put a definition of "strawman argument" there so others can learn from your mistakes?

You didn't say "Celtics fans are acting like", you said:

Funny how a 1 time All-Star in the heart of his prime is suddenly regarded as a transcendent talent.

Show me where a Celtics fan acted like or said Hayward was a transcendent talent? I'll wait.

DIG THAT HOLE! I believe in you SuperDario!

I feel like I'm talking to toddlers.

The post that began this entire discussion:
"Hayward being a little better than Dario Saric? Lmaoooo "

If Hayward being a little better than Dario is laughable, and the claim is followed up with rankings that place him above Lillard, Jokic, Kyrie, etc then yes it would follow that he is a transcendent talent. You may disagree based on player valuations but you are so hilariously wrong to call it a straw man argument It's even more hilarious when surrounded by pro-Celtic straw man arguments like "Dario is not better than Hayward" or "Sixers fans think Simmons/Embiid are Magic/Kareem."

[GeorgeMarcus]

Literally no one acted like Hayward was a transcendent talent, dude. It was a strawman argument. Get over it.

The Hayward of last year was the lead option on a team that won a playoff round in the much more difficult WC, and he scored 24ppg in the playoffs doing it. Transcendent talent? No. Top 20 player? Sure!

Meanwhilw, Saric is the 4th option on the Sixers, sometimes 5th depending on how RoCo or Bellinelli is playing. There is a sizable gap, sorry if the truth hurts the feelings of a poster named SuperDario. Good Lord I am just done here lol

Sorry to burst your bubble but I "literally" just explained to you why it wasn't. Feel free to argue against one of my points rather than rehash the same faulty argument. Otherwise you're 'grasping for straws' given your obsession with the phrase

Anyway, if you believe Saric is ever the 5th option behind Covington then you are beyond redemption. George Hill scored 17ppg for the Jazz last year so I'm not sure that's the best argument to use either. Somebody had to score for that team but just like this year, it's Gobert's defense that translates to success.

Yeah, I get that you explained it. Your explanation was dumb. No one was saying, implying, or regarding Hayward as a transcendent talent. Keep digging, though, it's fun to watch.

My point stands re:Saric v. Hayward. I'll grant you that Saric isn't ever the 5th option behind RoCo now, but he definitely was earlier in the season, and the whole season counts when comparing whole seasons. Hayward was 1st option and an AS on a team that won a playoff series in the WC; Saric is typically the 4th option on the Sixers behind Embiid/Simmons/Redick. There's a sizable gap. Sorry "SuperDario."

Saric was never the 5th option behind Covington at any point in the season.

[commentatorer]

Boston's defense will make no impression on Simmons, and probably no impression on Embiid either, so I'm happy with Boston, but I'd prefer Milwaukee for the simple fact of home court advantage.
Win the first 2 games in Philly and there is maximum pressure on Milwaukee in game 3, nothing beats that situation.

[ITYSL]

Sorry to burst your bubble but I "literally" just explained to you why it wasn't. Feel free to argue against one of my points rather than rehash the same faulty argument. Otherwise you're 'grasping for straws' given your obsession with the phrase

Anyway, if you believe Saric is ever the 5th option behind Covington then you are beyond redemption. George Hill scored 17ppg for the Jazz last year so I'm not sure that's the best argument to use either. Somebody had to score for that team but just like this year, it's Gobert's defense that translates to success.

Yeah, I get that you explained it. Your explanation was dumb. No one was saying, implying, or regarding Hayward as a transcendent talent. Keep digging, though, it's fun to watch.

My point stands re:Saric v. Hayward. I'll grant you that Saric isn't ever the 5th option behind RoCo now, but he definitely was earlier in the season, and the whole season counts when comparing whole seasons. Hayward was 1st option and an AS on a team that won a playoff series in the WC; Saric is typically the 4th option on the Sixers behind Embiid/Simmons/Redick. There's a sizable gap. Sorry "SuperDario."

Saric was never the 5th option behind Covington at any point in the season.

First two months of the season? Yeah he was. Still doesn't change my point that there's a sizable gap between Hayward last season and Saric this season.

[hookshot199]

It’s all nonsense at this point. You don’t know what either Team will look like next year let alone 3 years from now. Maybe we will have a good big, maybe embiid will be hurt, maybe kyrie and Hayward never get healthy and play well, maybe LeBron goes to philly. This year sixers will win if the celts make it. Next year I’ll predict next year. Both have very bright futures and are set up to be good, we will see how many titles if any either of them win. Neither team is set as well as OKC was five years ago and look at them now.

What's with you? I'm not criticizing your players. I believe Horford is a very good player, but he's overpaid at $30 mil. Hayward is an excellent player. But is he worth $31 mil? Between the two of them, they eat up 55% of next year's cap.

But the bigger picture, you don't have a big. Horford is a savvy, extremely skilled stretch-4. He averages slightly more than seven rebounds per game and one block.

Your payroll's close to the cap at $107 mil. You're going to have to pay Baynes, who's an unrestricted free agent, $10 mil after the season he's had. Smart will get a similar payday to Robert Covington - $10-$15 mil/year. You'll have to match or lose him. And unless you get the Lakers pick - a 2.9% chance - you'll be drafting 27 this year. There are some good center prospects lower in the draft, but most of the better ones are in the top 10.

Next season will be a test. I have no doubt that you're loaded at two and three and have an all-star caliber point guard. But Ainge has rolled the dice and you'll have to play small ball. You're locked in. At least that's how I see it. Danny has done it before - pulled a rabbit out of the hat - and if anyone can win with a small lineup it's Brad Stevens.

If you play the Sixers, it's going to give a lot of insight into both teams' strengths and weaknesses. It will essentially be one of the best if not best small-ball teams against potentially the best tall-ball team.

Here's your payroll - your best seven players without a center:

Hayward: $31 mil
Horford: $30 mil
Kyrie: $20 mil
Three-player total: $81 mil

Tatum, Morris, Jaylen Brown & Rozier: $20 mil.

Seven-player total: $101 mil

The arithmetic is what it is.

Why do you think I’m saying you are criticizing anything? I’m just saying projecting basketball futures is a guess at best. Trades, injuries, draft picks, players improving and declining is extremely fluid. Look at the Celtics last year to this year. It’s a totally different team. I’m sure the same thing won’t happen this year but every year is different.Cant they just go over the cap? The tickets are among he most expensive in the league and they sell out every game. All I was saying is I don’t wanna argue about who will be Better next year because it’s so unpredictable

You said (1) "This is exactly the reason why a lot of people hate philly. You have two unbelievable young players. They both act like they are magic and Kareem though despite just recently winning their only playoff series and routinely blowing giant leads all year. More likely next year we beat you if you make it to us and you say wait til embiid comes back.

2) Next: "Boston if healthy will compete for a title next year. Probably lose but they will compete. Philly will be right in the mix as well if healthy."

3) And then: "If you wanna say embiid and Simmons are better than kyrie and Hayward(which remains to be seen) it’s not by that margin and the rest is clearly better for the Celtics."


As has been pointed out, no one has ever compared Embiid to Kareem. Olajuywon, if he stays healthy, yes. People on the C's board think Tatum has potential to be a future Pierce. He's an excellent prospect, but do keep in mind that Pierce is/will be a Hall of Famer.

Second, I think my question about a team structural problem is fair. I assume key players will be healthy. How can you get a center when you're at or near the cap. You don't have a Brooklyn caliber pick to trade unless you get lucky with this year's LA pick. Half a dozen teams over the past 25 years have beaten the 2.9% odds.

Third, you've taken Kyrie and Hayward off the table. I presume you've taken Embiid and Simmons off the table as well. Who is the "rest that is clearly better for the Celtics"?

Horford is under contract. So is Saric. Smart is not. Covington and Anderson are under contract. So are Rozier, Morris and Brown. Tatum and Fultz are under contract. Theis is under contract. Baines is not.

While Redick, Ilyasova, Belenelli and/or Amir Johnson are not under contract, the Sixers have $30-$35 million of cap space for two or three $10-$15 mil players. In other words, they could probably bring back Ilyasova, Belenelli and Amir Johnson and still be under the cap. Redick is more problematic.

You posted that "the rest is clearly better for the Celtics" on the general board. I'm responding.


BTW: I think a Horford-Saric comparison is more germane when comparing our teams this year and next.

[Eyeamok]

Boston's defense will make no impression on Simmons, and probably no impression on Embiid either, so I'm happy with Boston, but I'd prefer Milwaukee for the simple fact of home court advantage.
Win the first 2 games in Philly and there is maximum pressure on Milwaukee in game 3, nothing beats that situation.

Go into Boston and win the first 2 games. It's a wrap son!!!!

[GeorgeMarcus]

Yeah, I get that you explained it. Your explanation was dumb. No one was saying, implying, or regarding Hayward as a transcendent talent. Keep digging, though, it's fun to watch.

My point stands re:Saric v. Hayward. I'll grant you that Saric isn't ever the 5th option behind RoCo now, but he definitely was earlier in the season, and the whole season counts when comparing whole seasons. Hayward was 1st option and an AS on a team that won a playoff series in the WC; Saric is typically the 4th option on the Sixers behind Embiid/Simmons/Redick. There's a sizable gap. Sorry "SuperDario."

Saric was never the 5th option behind Covington at any point in the season.

First two months of the season? Yeah he was. Still doesn't change my point that there's a sizable gap between Hayward last season and Saric this season.

Covington has never been anything more than catch and shoot for us. Dario was always the higher usage option dating back to last year. Maybe you are confusing things because Saric was coming off the bench in the beginning of the season and took more time to find his niche in our new system.

The Hayward/Saric debate is dead at this point; we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Sixerscan]

Yeah, I get that you explained it. Your explanation was dumb. No one was saying, implying, or regarding Hayward as a transcendent talent. Keep digging, though, it's fun to watch.

My point stands re:Saric v. Hayward. I'll grant you that Saric isn't ever the 5th option behind RoCo now, but he definitely was earlier in the season, and the whole season counts when comparing whole seasons. Hayward was 1st option and an AS on a team that won a playoff series in the WC; Saric is typically the 4th option on the Sixers behind Embiid/Simmons/Redick. There's a sizable gap. Sorry "SuperDario."

Saric was never the 5th option behind Covington at any point in the season.

First two months of the season? Yeah he was. Still doesn't change my point that there's a sizable gap between Hayward last season and Saric this season.

They averaged identical fgas per 36 through 12/1. Wouldn't say one was ahead of the other. Dario had the more clearly larger role over the last 61 games though. Weird thing to split hairs about.

[commentatorer]

Boston's defense will make no impression on Simmons, and probably no impression on Embiid either, so I'm happy with Boston, but I'd prefer Milwaukee for the simple fact of home court advantage.
Win the first 2 games in Philly and there is maximum pressure on Milwaukee in game 3, nothing beats that situation.

Go into Boston and win the first 2 games. It's a wrap son!!!!

That is the less probable outcome, but I agree its more preferable.

[ken6199]

Quick question Philly fans: has Kevin Hart always been sitting at the court side during those tanking years?

[hookshot199]

Haven't seen much of Simmons I assume?

I don’t really see any argument for Simmons being better than Kyrie at this point. Seems a tad reactionary.

Agree. Right now, Kyrie is slightly ahead of Simmons. What I'm surprised about is the lack of Dario Saric in that post. I have him rated above both Brown and Tatum this year.

I think, as I posted to somebody else, that we should be looking at Saric in the context of Al Horford. I realize that Horford has been forced to play the 5 throughout much of his career. But he's a 4.

If Saric, who's 24, can put up similar numbers to Horford over a 10-year career, then he'll be special. They're both consummate team players, glue guys.

[theFireBlanket]

1. Giannis
2. Embiid
3. Simmons
4. Middleton
5. Jabari
6. Dario
7. Robert Cov.
8. Delly
9. Ersan
10. Thon

Edited to reflect players in upcoming ECSF matchup.

[rzzzzz]

Quick question Philly fans: has Kevin Hart always been sitting at the court side during those tanking years?

yeah, we should be able to do better than that.

too bad W.C.F. ain't around any more, and Cosby's schedule has no openings.