WCQF | (4) Oklahoma City Thunder vs Utah Jazz (5) | UTA 4-2

[slick_watts]

In OKC?

No, because theres no avenue to build around him unless PG stays, and he's gone.

Elsewhere yeah there is. He was as good as Durant in 16 at the least, and I'd say 15 and 14. They coulda won then. Then Billy came and the roster was bad a year ago. This year was just a wreck. Hope they turn it around, but Russ should go somewhere he can win. I've detached myself enough I don't really care, the whole no team thing helped with that. I'd like to see him anywhere

westbrook better than durant at all in any of these seasons is revisionist history by thunder fans.

No, it's not. It wasn't then, wasn't on the PC board, isn't now. You calling it such shows you just weren't paying attention then.

i don't care about the pc board, dom. i was paying attention then and now. westbrook better than durant in 2014 in particular is preposterous unless all you are doing is taking slices of the playoffs, which the pc board gives way too much attention to relative to regular season.

15 when he broke his foot? yeah ok. 16? lol. is this boxscore plus/minus speaking through you?

kd was obviously the most important player of the duo. we're seeing that now.

[slick_watts]

presti is to blame the most. he's fostered this culture, he was behind (ultimately) the hero worship in the summer and the marketing of these stars as a big 3. he hired donovan, a limp-wristed sycophant. it all starts and ends with him. sure he makes decent trades and stuff but it's his culture imperatives that have created this entitled team centered around one player. utah isn't that much better than a healthy thunder team with roberson but they are a lot more fun to watch because they have a culture that's easy to like. the thunder culture was like this before.

So to be clear, are we in agreement that this is a system failure?

sure.

[spearsy23]

i don't agree. i think russ as an individual allowed himself to be taken out of his game by rubio, gobert and the jazz for the majority of this series. go back to this threat prior to game 5. i don't think any thunder fan wasn't on board with this. russ was culpable for much of the poor play on offense and defense for the bulk of this series. he won game 5 single handed, and kept us in this one. we might not have been in this situation in the first place had his head been screwed on straight to start. it's russ' biggest weakness as a player.

The question is rather or not there's a guy out there who can reign that in without taking away what makes him great. You probably can't fault Donovan for not sitting him in the playoffs, but he's had 240 regular season games to try to get through and instead has given him carte blanche mostly because he isn't able to get a working offense without Westbrook on the floor, including when he had Durant and kanter which is a pretty damn good offensive pairing.

i don't think at this point there is with westbrook at 30 years old, etc. and it's clearly not the direction sam ever indented on taking with the team judging by his hiring of donovan in the first place. there's tacit acceptable in the organization for westbrook, and it's great for the community, and team identity and all that stuff. but i don't think it's optimal or really desired from a basketball perspective. this is the main reason i want a culture reset (matt moore stole this term from me) and at that point might as well blow it all up.

I think there are a lot of things that aren't necessarily ideal from a basketball perspective that don't really matter once you reach a certain level of talent. But I'd remind you that many of the same things were being said about Jordan at age 27. Don't get me wrong, Russ isn't on that playing field, but a combination of personality and coaching acumen could combine with a roster with fewer flaws to get through to him. I don't think there's any question that he's an intelligent person, but so far he hasn't really had any guidance or a roster geared toward stepping back at times and allowing others to step forward. The one season we got with another high level creator he probably sacrificed the most when he, harden, and Durant were all on the court.

[bondom34]

westbrook better than durant at all in any of these seasons is revisionist history by thunder fans.

No, it's not. It wasn't then, wasn't on the PC board, isn't now. You calling it such shows you just weren't paying attention then.

i don't care about the pc board, dom. i was paying attention then and now. westbrook better than durant in 2014 in particular is preposterous unless all you are doing is taking slices of the playoffs, which the pc board gives way too much attention to relative to regular season.

15 when he broke his foot? yeah ok. 16? lol. is this boxscore plus/minus speaking through you?

kd was obviously the most important player of the duo. we're seeing that now.

14 on a per minute basis there was an argument.

15 was close.

16 was close and many had Russ. You said it's revisionist history by OKC fans. 1, I'm not, and 2 it's not because non-OKC fans had that POV. So you were incorrect.

Also, I don't think that's what anyone's seeing. Durant can't win in GSW without Curry either and has now 1 series win without Westbrook or Curry over a hobbled Spurs. Last year's OKC wasn't good enough to do anything.

[Atomic Punk]

presti is to blame the most. he's fostered this culture, he was behind (ultimately) the hero worship in the summer and the marketing of these stars as a big 3. he hired donovan, a limp-wristed sycophant. it all starts and ends with him. sure he makes decent trades and stuff but it's his culture imperatives that have created this entitled team centered around one player. utah isn't that much better than a healthy thunder team with roberson but they are a lot more fun to watch because they have a culture that's easy to like. the thunder culture was like this before.

So to be clear, are we in agreement that this is a system failure?

sure.

Sorry, just trying to figure out your position. You say that Russ is to blame, then turn around and lay it on Presti. Which is it?

[slick_watts]

The question is rather or not there's a guy out there who can reign that in without taking away what makes him great. You probably can't fault Donovan for not sitting him in the playoffs, but he's had 240 regular season games to try to get through and instead has given him carte blanche mostly because he isn't able to get a working offense without Westbrook on the floor, including when he had Durant and kanter which is a pretty damn good offensive pairing.

i don't think at this point there is with westbrook at 30 years old, etc. and it's clearly not the direction sam ever indented on taking with the team judging by his hiring of donovan in the first place. there's tacit acceptable in the organization for westbrook, and it's great for the community, and team identity and all that stuff. but i don't think it's optimal or really desired from a basketball perspective. this is the main reason i want a culture reset (matt moore stole this term from me) and at that point might as well blow it all up.

I think there are a lot of things that aren't necessarily ideal from a basketball perspective that don't really matter once you reach a certain level of talent. But I'd remind you that many of the same things were being said about Jordan at age 27. Don't get me wrong, Russ isn't on that playing field, but a combination of personality and coaching acumen could combine with a roster with fewer flaws to get through to him. I don't think there's any question that he's an intelligent person, but so far he hasn't really had any guidance or a roster geared toward stepping back at times and allowing others to step forward. The one season we got with another high level creator he probably sacrificed the most when he, harden, and Durant were all on the court.

like jordan and kobe, westbrook would have benefited significantly from a coach like phil jackson.

[slick_watts]

So to be clear, are we in agreement that this is a system failure?

sure.

Sorry, just trying to figure out your position. You say that Russ is to blame, then turn around and lay it on Presti. Which is it?

ultimately russ is responsible for his actions, but these are actions and behaviors that have been tacitly permitted and even openly encouraged at times by presti and the org. so both i guess.

[slick_watts]

No, it's not. It wasn't then, wasn't on the PC board, isn't now. You calling it such shows you just weren't paying attention then.

i don't care about the pc board, dom. i was paying attention then and now. westbrook better than durant in 2014 in particular is preposterous unless all you are doing is taking slices of the playoffs, which the pc board gives way too much attention to relative to regular season.

15 when he broke his foot? yeah ok. 16? lol. is this boxscore plus/minus speaking through you?

kd was obviously the most important player of the duo. we're seeing that now.

14 on a per minute basis there was an argument.

15 was close.

16 was close and many had Russ. You said it's revisionist history by OKC fans. 1, I'm not, and 2 it's not because non-OKC fans had that POV. So you were incorrect.

Also, I don't think that's what anyone's seeing. Durant can't win in GSW without Curry either and has now 1 series win without Westbrook or Curry over a hobbled Spurs. Last year's OKC wasn't good enough to do anything.

kd is clearly not the same player anymore for whatever reason. he's taken a dip. like russ.

over a hobbled spurs? what about the hobbled warriors? we're not going to agree on westbrook versus durant, but i haven't seen any place on the internet support those views.

[Atomic Punk]

sure.

Sorry, just trying to figure out your position. You say that Russ is to blame, then turn around and lay it on Presti. Which is it?

ultimately russ is responsible for his actions, but these are actions and behaviors that have been tacitly permitted and even openly encouraged at times by presti and the org. so both i guess.

Fair enough. I will just say this: in my experience, all problems are essentially management problems.

[spearsy23]

Sure plays like one. For better or worse. He has those moments where we all love him for it as fans. I just don't think big picture it goes anywhere long term. Other than individual accolades I suppose.

In OKC?

No, because theres no avenue to build around him unless PG stays, and he's gone.

Elsewhere yeah there is. He was as good as Durant in 16 at the least, and I'd say 15 and 14. They coulda won then. Then Billy came and the roster was bad a year ago. This year was just a wreck. Hope they turn it around, but Russ should go somewhere he can win. I've detached myself enough I don't really care, the whole no team thing helped with that. I'd like to see him anywhere

westbrook better than durant at all in any of these seasons is revisionist history by thunder fans.

Feel free to disagree, but it's certainly not revisionist. You can dig through the threads for 2016 and see that it was pretty split on who was better.

I was and am in the Westbrook camp. Durant was clearly not the same after being out all summer, his handle was loose and he struggled creating shots without Westbrook in the game.

[bondom34]

i don't care about the pc board, dom. i was paying attention then and now. westbrook better than durant in 2014 in particular is preposterous unless all you are doing is taking slices of the playoffs, which the pc board gives way too much attention to relative to regular season.

15 when he broke his foot? yeah ok. 16? lol. is this boxscore plus/minus speaking through you?

kd was obviously the most important player of the duo. we're seeing that now.

14 on a per minute basis there was an argument.

15 was close.

16 was close and many had Russ. You said it's revisionist history by OKC fans. 1, I'm not, and 2 it's not because non-OKC fans had that POV. So you were incorrect.

Also, I don't think that's what anyone's seeing. Durant can't win in GSW without Curry either and has now 1 series win without Westbrook or Curry over a hobbled Spurs. Last year's OKC wasn't good enough to do anything.

kd is clearly not the same player anymore for whatever reason. he's taken a dip. like russ.

over a hobbled spurs? what about the hobbled warriors? we're not going to agree on westbrook versus durant, but i haven't seen any place on the internet support those views.

The PC board. And you apparently didn't care when I mentioned it, so if I give evidence you just ignore it which is cool.

Also the Warriors were hobbled and still more talented by miles. And they're missing the 2nd best player in the league. Durant won 1 series as the best player. Big whoop.

[slick_watts]

In OKC?

No, because theres no avenue to build around him unless PG stays, and he's gone.

Elsewhere yeah there is. He was as good as Durant in 16 at the least, and I'd say 15 and 14. They coulda won then. Then Billy came and the roster was bad a year ago. This year was just a wreck. Hope they turn it around, but Russ should go somewhere he can win. I've detached myself enough I don't really care, the whole no team thing helped with that. I'd like to see him anywhere

westbrook better than durant at all in any of these seasons is revisionist history by thunder fans.

Feel free to disagree, but it's certainly not revisionist. You can dig through the threads for 2016 and see that it was pretty split on who was better.

I was and am in the Westbrook camp. Durant was clearly not the same after being out all summer, his handle was loose and he struggled creating shots without Westbrook in the game.

you mean in the awful bench lineup? wasn't the offense that year better with kd and no russ than russ and no kd?

[slick_watts]

14 on a per minute basis there was an argument.

15 was close.

16 was close and many had Russ. You said it's revisionist history by OKC fans. 1, I'm not, and 2 it's not because non-OKC fans had that POV. So you were incorrect.

Also, I don't think that's what anyone's seeing. Durant can't win in GSW without Curry either and has now 1 series win without Westbrook or Curry over a hobbled Spurs. Last year's OKC wasn't good enough to do anything.

kd is clearly not the same player anymore for whatever reason. he's taken a dip. like russ.

over a hobbled spurs? what about the hobbled warriors? we're not going to agree on westbrook versus durant, but i haven't seen any place on the internet support those views.

The PC board. And you apparently didn't care when I mentioned it, so if I give evidence you just ignore it which is cool.

Also the Warriors were hobbled and still more talented by miles. And they're missing the 2nd best player in the league. Durant won 1 series as the best player. Big whoop.

kd has a finals mvp and now a 1st round victory as the leader of the team while westbrook has two first round exits and was outplayed by ricky rubio for most of this series. it's really not looking great.

[spearsy23]

i don't think at this point there is with westbrook at 30 years old, etc. and it's clearly not the direction sam ever indented on taking with the team judging by his hiring of donovan in the first place. there's tacit acceptable in the organization for westbrook, and it's great for the community, and team identity and all that stuff. but i don't think it's optimal or really desired from a basketball perspective. this is the main reason i want a culture reset (matt moore stole this term from me) and at that point might as well blow it all up.

I think there are a lot of things that aren't necessarily ideal from a basketball perspective that don't really matter once you reach a certain level of talent. But I'd remind you that many of the same things were being said about Jordan at age 27. Don't get me wrong, Russ isn't on that playing field, but a combination of personality and coaching acumen could combine with a roster with fewer flaws to get through to him. I don't think there's any question that he's an intelligent person, but so far he hasn't really had any guidance or a roster geared toward stepping back at times and allowing others to step forward. The one season we got with another high level creator he probably sacrificed the most when he, harden, and Durant were all on the court.

like jordan and kobe, westbrook would have benefited significantly from a coach like phil jackson.

It may or may not be too late is the point. Maybe he's done in two years or maybe he manages to stay healthy and be what he is for another 4 or 5. I don't think we'll really know for sure until we see if this was a down year or if he has similar struggles next season.

[bondom34]

kd is clearly not the same player anymore for whatever reason. he's taken a dip. like russ.

over a hobbled spurs? what about the hobbled warriors? we're not going to agree on westbrook versus durant, but i haven't seen any place on the internet support those views.

The PC board. And you apparently didn't care when I mentioned it, so if I give evidence you just ignore it which is cool.

Also the Warriors were hobbled and still more talented by miles. And they're missing the 2nd best player in the league. Durant won 1 series as the best player. Big whoop.

kd has a finals mvp and now a 1st round victory as the leader of the team while westbrook has two first round exits and was outplayed by ricky rubio for most of this series. it's really not looking great.

He's not the leader of the team in Oakland. At all. Like in the least.

And if you want to blame last year's team being poor on Westbrook I got nothing.

[slick_watts]

The PC board. And you apparently didn't care when I mentioned it, so if I give evidence you just ignore it which is cool.

Also the Warriors were hobbled and still more talented by miles. And they're missing the 2nd best player in the league. Durant won 1 series as the best player. Big whoop.

kd has a finals mvp and now a 1st round victory as the leader of the team while westbrook has two first round exits and was outplayed by ricky rubio for most of this series. it's really not looking great.

He's not the leader of the team in Oakland. At all. Like in the least.

And if you want to blame last year's team being poor on Westbrook I got nothing.

i'm not blaming, i'm stating facts. you brought up durant winning 1 series as some sort of slight. durant was carrying the thunder in the playoffs for years. he was by far the best player on the team the only year they made the finals, and most of the time until he left. he was the face of the thunder.

durant led the team in the first round. curry will come back and they'll mop up until they get to houston where it gets interesting. and where, by the way, james harden and kevin durant will be playing and not russell westbrook.

[bondom34]

kd has a finals mvp and now a 1st round victory as the leader of the team while westbrook has two first round exits and was outplayed by ricky rubio for most of this series. it's really not looking great.

He's not the leader of the team in Oakland. At all. Like in the least.

And if you want to blame last year's team being poor on Westbrook I got nothing.

i'm not blaming, i'm stating facts. you brought up durant winning 1 series as some sort of slight. durant was carrying the thunder in the playoffs for years. he was by far the best player on the team the only year they made the finals, and most of the time until he left. he was the face of the thunder.

durant led the team in the first round. curry will come back and they'll mop up until they get to houston where it gets interesting. and where, by the way, james harden and kevin durant will be playing and not russell westbrook.

And by the way, both had better coaches and rosters.

Unless you're arguing that a single player is the entire determinant of outcome.

Also, I brought it up because you're claiing all the faults on a single player, when Durant hasn't lead a team essentially anywhere himself. And if you want to go to Harden great, he quit last year in a clinching game.

Look man, I'm tired and not into doing this and David already had to tell you once today. You're not changing your mind, great. I don't really care what they do at this point and explained why I stepped back from the team already. But Russ isn't the big problem. He should have been the solution. But it's too late now,

[spearsy23]

The PC board. And you apparently didn't care when I mentioned it, so if I give evidence you just ignore it which is cool.

Also the Warriors were hobbled and still more talented by miles. And they're missing the 2nd best player in the league. Durant won 1 series as the best player. Big whoop.

kd has a finals mvp and now a 1st round victory as the leader of the team while westbrook has two first round exits and was outplayed by ricky rubio for most of this series. it's really not looking great.

He's not the leader of the team in Oakland. At all. Like in the least.

And if you want to blame last year's team being poor on Westbrook I got nothing.

He may not be the leader, but he was certainly their best player in the playoffs last year.

I'm confused by what this argument is about, because as a whole Kevin Durant is a better player than Russell Westbrook. Their team success is not indicative of that, but it doesn't need to be for the statement to be true.

[slick_watts]

Also, I brought it up because you're claiing all the faults on a single player, when Durant hasn't lead a team essentially anywhere himself. And if you want to go to Harden great, he quit last year in a clinching game.

all of the faults? no. you just get your panties in a bundle whenever i criticize westbrook. fairly, i might add- and criticism you joined in on a few days ago.

Look man, I'm tired and not into doing this and David already had to tell you once today. You're not changing your mind, great. I don't really care what they do at this point and explained why I stepped back from the team already. But Russ isn't the big problem. He should have been the solution. But it's too late now,

then stop replying to me if you don't want to discuss this. i don't mind the discussion. nobody's forcing you to have it. i think russ is a big problem. you don't. ok. leave it there if you want to.

[bondom34]

kd has a finals mvp and now a 1st round victory as the leader of the team while westbrook has two first round exits and was outplayed by ricky rubio for most of this series. it's really not looking great.

He's not the leader of the team in Oakland. At all. Like in the least.

And if you want to blame last year's team being poor on Westbrook I got nothing.

He may not be the leader, but he was certainly their best player in the playoffs last year.

I'm confused by what this argument is about, because as a whole Kevin Durant is a better player than Russell Westbrook. Their team success is not indicative of that, but it doesn't need to be for the statement to be true.

I don't even know anymore. Russ was better a few of those years is what started it. I'm out to read other stuff. Probably post in the offseason a bit.