2018 NBA Draft Talk

Forte IV · Post #521 » by **Forte IV** » Sun May 20, 2018 6:04 pm

I also really like Khyri Thomas. 6'4 long arms, amazing defender, great shooter.

esqtvd · Post #522 » by **esqtvd** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:37 pm

Here's a mock with pretty much every name bandied about in this thread already gone [except Miles Bridges and Lonnie Walker, who's all the way down at #19]. Haven't seen much excitement here for Sexton, and getting a project to replace DJ in Williams is more like getting socks and underwear for Christmas instead of a shiny new toy.

Forte IV · Post #523 » by **Forte IV** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:49 pm

I want length and height on the perimeter. A guy like Robert WIlliams (at least to me) does not fit in with the modern NBA. Sure he could be Clint Capela like but this team needs wings and height. I like Sexton, but he's barely 6'2, we already have two guys 6'2 and 6'1 in Bradley (if he comes back) and Pat. We don't need a third unless he's 6'5+. That's why I'm so keen on these bigger guards and wings.

Quake Griffin · Post #524 » by **Quake Griffin** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:57 pm

Ranma wrote:
TucsonClip wrote:Livingston was a generational talent pre-injury. I like Shai, but thats some really, really high praise I dont think is warranted. However, the size, frame, switchability, ect. makes some sense. If you said similar to Livingston a few years ago, with upside and a better jumper, I would agree.

I absolutely concur. Livingston was gifted as a playmaker with his court vision and feel for the position while SGA is seen more as a combo guard. Not only that, but Livingston also tested with elite level agility whereas Gilgeous-Alexander didn't even participate in such drills at the pre-draft combine. With the league heading toward position-less basketball, a player like Shai Gilgeous-Alexander has more value now than he would in the past but I still don't see him as much more than a utility player to be used off the bench, especially early on but he'd need to further develop his body and polish his skills. Personally, I'm still an advocate of my PGs having natural playmaking instincts for the position with maybe a few exceptions here and there depending on the roster construction.

I love the DX guys but the Shai-Shaun comparison, like their comp of Miles Bridges and Justise Winlsow, just doesn't ring true even if the respective side-by-side physical dimensions line up surprisingly well.

Read on Twitter

Who said Shai isn't a playmaker?

esqtvd · Post #525 » by **esqtvd** » Sun May 20, 2018 8:27 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:Who said Shai isn't a playmaker?

Ranma · Post #526 » by **Ranma** » Sun May 20, 2018 8:51 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:Who said Shai isn't a playmaker?

There are degrees of playmaking. Are you implying that he's Chris Paul, John Stockton, or even Shaun Livingston in that regard? Yeah, he can run the point, but he's not really a natural talent at an elite level, which is why I labeled him as a combo guard.

Austin Rivers, Jamal Crawford and even Blake Griffin have playmaking ability but none of them should be the primary playmaker for a championship-level team. To his credit, Gilgeous-Alexander could probably be better in that regard than that aforementioned trio.

nickhx2 · Post #527 » by **nickhx2** » Sun May 20, 2018 9:14 pm

didn't shai really step it up over the end of the season? that was one of the most impressive things i liked about him. that kind of stuff really speaks to how a player can develop, imo.

Ranma · Post #528 » by **Ranma** » Sun May 20, 2018 9:37 pm

nickhx2 wrote:didn't shai really step it up over the end of the season? that was one of the most impressive things i liked about him. that kind of stuff really speaks to how a player can develop, imo.

Yeah, that's been a noteworthy constant in his scouting reports. He's arguably surpassed his more hyped teammates at Kentucky to be the most draft-worthy prospect on that team. I actually like him as a prospect as I think he'll be able to help any team, but I personally don't see him as a regular lead guard and it looks like he'll need time to develop physically in order to contribute on a consistent basis for NBA teams.

I'm personally not sold on drafting him in the lottery, to be honest. Similar to Chandler Hutchison, I like Shai Gilgeous-Alexander as a mid-to-late first-round selection. You guys know I'm particularly fond of Anfernee Simons, but given his need for physical development, I'm resigned to valuing him similarly to both Gilgeous-Alexander and Hutchison even though I like Simons the most of the bunch.

Quake Griffin · Post #529 » by **Quake Griffin** » Sun May 20, 2018 10:22 pm

Ranma wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:Who said Shai isn't a playmaker?

There are degrees of playmaking. Are you implying that he's Chris Paul, John Stockton, or even Shaun Livingston in that regard? Yeah, he can run the point, but he's not really a natural talent at an elite level, which is why I labeled him as a combo guard.

Austin Rivers, Jamal Crawford and even Blake Griffin have playmaking ability but none of them should be the primary playmaker for a championship-level team. To his credit, Gilgeous-Alexander could probably be better in that regard than that aforementioned trio.

He's not along that order because projecting someone to be like that is playing with fire. But in my analysis of who he is as a player, I wouldn't question his playmaking ability at all.

Here is Coach Cal talking about his leadership, how he is the hardest worker in the weight room (why I don't care that he is 180 LBS 1 year out of HS), how he out works his teammates, how his teammates agree he's the best player on the team, and basically why he promoted him during the year. Cal didn't name a captain to start the year. Shai, the combo guard who wasn't starting, took the PG position over and the role of captain.

Watch on YouTube

^^^
Players on Shai the player and there's some commentary about him creating/ playmaking for them.

I've said it before. Is there room for a Chauncey Billups type PG in this league anymore (of course that is assuming Shai works out)? 15-17 ppg. 5-7 apg. Spot up shoot. Create and get in the lane here and there. Play defense. Be a leader. If we demand CP3 out of Shai, yeah, we'll hate him because he will never live up to it. If we are making a new look team that possibly can provide matchup problems all over the floor on both ends and the 1 through 3 are pretty malleable, he'd be a great pick. Plus, I think that type of player would be attractive to free agents.

I'd only question:
- Sample size of playing PG position.
- Will he know how to use his length? He presents the opposite "problem" you were discussing with DiVincenzo. DiVincenzo has the athleticism and not the length. He has the length and not quite the athleticism. At this point, I'd rather have the Shai "problem" and not the DiVincenzo/Blake Griffin problem.

MartinToVaught · Post #530 » by **MartinToVaught** » Mon May 21, 2018 12:53 am

Read on Twitter

We need to trade up. Get Doncic, sign Hezonja for cheap and call it an offseason.

Post #531 » by **mkwest** » Mon May 21, 2018 1:08 am

Read on Twitter

Watch on YouTube

esqtvd · Post #532 » by **esqtvd** » Mon May 21, 2018 1:15 am

I've never actually seen Doncic play but I trust my instincts and my google ability. I'm willing to risk the franchise's entire future on him. What could possibly go wrong?

MartinToVaught · Post #533 » by **MartinToVaught** » Mon May 21, 2018 1:41 am

esqtvd wrote:I've never actually seen Doncic play but I trust my instincts and my google ability. I'm willing to risk the franchise's entire future on him. What could possibly go wrong?

Read on Twitter

I think I'll go with his track record of success as a 19-year-old playing against grown men over your agendas. Doncic has all the makings of a franchise player.

Ranma · Post #534 » by **Ranma** » Mon May 21, 2018 1:43 am

Quake Griffin wrote:He's not along that order because projecting someone to be like that is playing with fire. But in my analysis of who he is as a player, I wouldn't question his playmaking ability at all.

Here is Coach Cal talking about his leadership, how he is the hardest worker in the weight room (why I don't care that he is 180 LBS 1 year out of HS), how he out works his teammates, how his teammates agree he's the best player on the team, and basically why he promoted him during the year. Cal didn't name a captain to start the year. Shai, the combo guard who wasn't starting, took the PG position over and the role of captain.

I've said it before. Is there room for a Chauncey Billups type PG in this league anymore (of course that is assuming Shai works out)? 15-17 ppg. 5-7 apg. Spot up shoot. Create and get in the lane here and there. Play defense. Be a leader. If we demand CP3 out of Shai, yeah, we'll hate him because he will never live up to it. If we are making a new look team that possibly can provide matchup problems all over the floor on both ends and the 1 through 3 are pretty malleable, he'd be a great pick. Plus, I think that type of player would be attractive to free agents.

I'd only question:
- Sample size of playing PG position.
- Will he know how to use his length? He presents the opposite "problem" you were discussing with DiVincenzo. DiVincenzo has the athleticism and not the length. He has the length and not quite the athleticism. At this point, I'd rather have the Shai "problem" and not the DiVincenzo/Blake Griffin problem.

Great videos. I was fairly aware of the praise for SGA coming from Calipari and his teammates, but it was great to see how genuine everyone was in talking about him, which added more to the words alone on paper. As I responded to nickhx2, I think he'll be able to help any NBA team, in part, because of his work ethic, character, build and skill set.

I've made no bones in the past in saying that I've always preferred my lead point guard to have natural playmaking instincts. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and most anyone else won't change that. Anybody--although admittedly few do--can work on honing their playmaking ability, but even then, they typically won't reach the level of someone who seemed born to play the position. It's one area where I favor nature over nurture in such a debate.

Plus, as I also mentioned in my post in response to TucsonClip, I acknowledged that the type of player Gilgeous-Alexander is would be more valuable now than he would have been in the past given how the NBA is moving towards position-less basketball. Despite that, I'm still old school in my demands from the PG position, which I feel is still the most important on the team. Heck, I even allowed for exceptions to my rule depending on roster construction.

I've already said he's a safe player and one who will likely contribute to an NBA ballclub consistently once he reaches full maturity, but he's not my cup of tea as a lottery pick, which may be splitting hairs since the back-end of the lottery is close to the mid-first-round grade I've given him even though I also mentioned late in the first round as a preference. However, he's most certainly not going to get away with quite a few of the things he's been doing at the collegiate level in the NBA until he further develops, which is going to take him at least a couple of seasons regardless of his work ethic, especially given the adjustment period for most rookies to the demands of the NBA schedule as well as the physical demands of going against elite athletes night in and night out.

Players of his build including Shaun Livingston and Michael Carter-Williams all needed time to fully adjust to the NBA and, work ethic or not, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander will be no different. As a project, he's probably one of the safer ones out there.

esqtvd · Post #535 » by **esqtvd** » Mon May 21, 2018 2:08 am

MartinToVaught wrote:
esqtvd wrote:I've never actually seen Doncic play but I trust my instincts and my google ability. I'm willing to risk the franchise's entire future on him. What could possibly go wrong?

Read on Twitter

I think I'll go with his track record of success as a 19-year-old playing against grown men over your agendas. Doncic has all the makings of a franchise player.

I have no agenda. I find internet amateur draft experts hysterically funny is all, sorry, and their opinions worth not much more than warm spit. Even the guys who scout 24/7 and who are paid well to do it are wrong as much as they're right. For people to pontificate on prospects from in front of their TVs and computers is more than a bit ludicrous. This is crazy season.

Not that we all can't have opinions--especially on character, fit, and the measurables, but projecting someone's growth in the NBA at age 18 or 19 is more art than science, and nobody can get that from SportsCenter and 3rd-hand internet reports [written mostly by fellow amateurs].

Your google ability is ace. Dunno why these Euroleague MVPs aren't already here for the NBA's megamillions. Aside from Tony Parker, :dontknow:

MartinToVaught · Post #536 » by **MartinToVaught** » Mon May 21, 2018 2:11 am

Let's be real. You're worried that if we get Doncic, there won't be room for Austin in the rotation anymore with all the talent we'd have on the perimeter. And if Doc continues to give Austin big minutes at Doncic's expense, the nepotism will be blatantly obvious and Ballmer might finally have to make a coaching change. That is all.

Ranma · Post #537 » by **Ranma** » Mon May 21, 2018 2:44 am

MartinToVaught wrote:

Read on Twitter

We need to trade up. Get Doncic, sign Hezonja for cheap and call it an offseason.

MartinToVaught wrote:I think I'll go with his track record of success as a 19-year-old playing against grown men over your agendas. Doncic has all the makings of a franchise player.

I'd be surprised if the Hawks actually passed on Doncic under GM Travis Schlenk as he seems like the type of player who would fit in on his previous teams in Golden State. Then again, maybe Schlenk has something different in mind in terms of roster construction for his first team to run as the lead personnel executive.

It's also a little surprising that there is already talk of teams willing to trade out of the 1st, 2nd and 4th overall selection slots. In any case, I actually don't consider Luka Doncic as a true "franchise player" type of prospect since that term and "superstar" seem to get thrown around haphazardly, but I guess he does have the potential to eventually reach such a status in the NBA.

I define a franchise player as someone a team can build around as a cornerstone while being worthy of a max deal. I've compared Doncic to Gordon Hayward and I personally don't feel comfortable giving that type of commitment to such players. Whatever the case may be, I still think he's one of the top prospects in this draft and definitely worthy of a top-3 selection, but as I mentioned before, the depth of this draft class coupled with the abundance of athletic prospects with varying degrees of skill has me anticipating that quite a few prospects selected outside of the lottery will eventually outperform a lot of their lottery-selected counterparts. And I can see Doncic falling into that latter category.

Having said that, his skill set would be a great fit on the Clippers, but I surprisingly find it increasingly debatable now whether trading both the 12th and 13th picks would be worth the 2nd overall selection. I'd definitely pull the trigger for DeAndre Ayton if he was available, but is Doncic really worth more than what could possibly be available at both our lottery picks?

As a matter of going the safer route with a reasonably high floor, one could certainly argue, yes, it would be a worthwhile proposition. However, given what I said about the high-upside propositions available with our picks, I'd probably be inclined not to pull the trigger, personally, if we selected both players I really like right now in Zhaire Smith and Anfernee Simons for the long game. Simons probably should be selected outside of the lottery, but he shouldn't be too far out of there as he's currently projected to be a top-20 pick.

I'm just using my favorite examples to pose the personal quandary, but I'll pose something less biased and probably more debatable. Would you trade Mikal Bridges and Lonnie Walker IV for Doncic? Bridges is probably not going to get past Philadelphia as a Villanova alumnus who would fit on a contending team in the NBA, but there remains the very real possibility of prospects rising up the draft boards based on workouts that are still to come. The point is that things are in flux and players could rise and fall into our selection slots with different ratings.

Having said that, I'd probably pull the trigger right now and I wouldn't necessarily take Doncic since I also like Marvin Bagley III, but like I pointed out earlier, it's strange that teams are supposedly willing to trade out of the top spots already. It could just be a matter of employing smokescreens or trying to drum up interest for teams to overpay.

This poses another question, if teams are indeed willing to trade out of the top spots, could we work towards making a trade with the Hawks for their 3rd and 19th overall picks for our 12th and 13th overall picks and Gallinari, a future protected first-round pick, the rights to Avery Bradley or whatever? It's probably not realistic but I'm interested to see how things continue to develop as we approach the actual draft.

esqtvd · Post #538 » by **esqtvd** » Mon May 21, 2018 2:46 am

MartinToVaught wrote:Let's be real. You're worried that if we get Doncic, there won't be room for Austin in the rotation anymore with all the talent we'd have on the perimeter. And if Doc continues to give Austin big minutes at Doncic's expense, the nepotism will be blatantly obvious and Ballmer might finally have to make a coaching change. That is all.

LOL. What a hamster wheel of a brain. I couldn't even conceive of such convolutions. Austin's out of here next summer, barring a MIP award, which would put him around 20 ppg and make him a hot commodity--in which case he'll probably leave anyway.

And I was 50-50 on keeping Doc or moving on. You apparently don't read what I actually write. I just don't like unfounded accusations--like the one you just made at me.

A lot of what people say [over and over and over] is moronic.

FTR, I would consider Doncic at #3--I'm largely unimpressed by Euros but haven't "scouted" Doncic either way. Never saw him play.

I just wouldn't trade what it'll take for us to get the pick. Clearly nobody out there thinks he's the next LeBron. Or even Tony Parker. And we're too far away from contending to put all our eggs in some unknown Eurobasket.

Ranma · Post #539 » by **Ranma** » Mon May 21, 2018 3:29 am

Read on Twitter

Forte IV · Post #540 » by **Forte IV** » Mon May 21, 2018 6:18 am

I also wouldn't mind Troy Brown

What do you predict the Clippers will do on Draft Night? (vote for up to 2 options)